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Posted: 9/29/2004 1:29:03 AM EST
www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/483300.html


U.S. volunteers escorting Palestinian children attacked
By Amira Hass, Haaretz Correspondent

Unidentified assailants attacked two American Christian volunteers who were escorting Palestinian schoolchildren on Wednesday morning near the settlement of Maon in the southern Hebron Hills area of the West Bank.

The assailants beat the volunteers and robbed them. The two were evacuated by Israeli ambulance to Soroka Medical Center in Be'er Sheva.

The attackers, numbering four or five, were dressed in black and wore masks. They spoke English and were carrying chains and clubs.

They did not attack the schoolchildren, who quickly fled the scene, but stole a bag belonging to female volunteer Kim Lamberty, 44. The bag contained her passport, money and cellular phone.

The assailants beat the second volunteer, Chris Brown, with chains until he bled.

Both volunteers are affiliated with the Christian Peacemakers Teams, which escorts Palestinian schoolchildren living with their families in caves in the village of Tuba to their primary school in the village of Al-Tuwani, an approximately half-hour walk.

The road along which the volunteers and schoolchildren pass is used by settlers and is forbidden to Palestinian vehicular traffic. Palestinian pedestrians, however, are permitted to use the road.

However, the schoolchildren are afraid to pass unescorted through the area because of what they describe as harrassment by area Jewish settlers.





Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:37:55 AM EST
Tools.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:45:48 AM EST
So Palestinians are beating the hippies who are trying to help them?

Yeah, that's a group you can reason with.

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:48:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
So Palestinians are beating the hippies who are trying to help them?

Yeah, that's a group you can reason with.




Sounds likee it could have been settlers.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:56:29 AM EST
yeah ok settlers. suuuuuuuuuuure.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:58:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
So Palestinians are beating the hippies who are trying to help them?

Yeah, that's a group you can reason with.




Sounds likee it could have been settlers.



I read that last sentence yes, but what good would it do the settlers to pounce people protecting kids? I'd believe one of the many terrorist factions of the Palestinians would do that before the settlers. But hell, I'm not over there so I could be dead wrong.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:58:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
yeah ok settlers. suuuuuuuuuuure.



Settlers are...different. They have even shot it out with the IDF when they were evicted. They tend to be more orthodox and less cooperative with the Palestinians.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:00:08 AM EST
SETTLERS ARE NOT EXTREMEISTS/MILITANTS/PSYCHOS.

They are people like you and me who live in VERY VERY dangerous areas. That's why they are allowed to carry guns. Problem is every pic of them shows the most outwardly religious settler with the meanest blackest rifle. It's media equivelancy once again.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:00:26 AM EST
I guess I'm not very well informed on this. Why would the IDF evict Jewish settlers?

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:06:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
I guess I'm not very well informed on this. Why would the IDF evict Jewish settlers?




Some kind of treaty with the Pali's, they had to remove the settlements that were installed after the 1993 accords, cause they were in contravention with the treaty.

FWIW, the settlers, I am told, are often newer immigrants. This is their last chance, they gave up what they had before to come to Israel, and they won't give it up easily.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:08:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 3:01:27 AM EST by chapperjoe]
THE IDF isn't evicting them. the governmnet is..... he IDF is the govenrmenet's tool.

This eviction thing is a rough issue. As usual the Jews take the painful steps (see pre-48 jewish infighting to destroy and then incorporate extremist zionists, lebenon withdrawal, sinai withdrawl) and the world criticizes anyway. Gaza I could care less about. Jews don't belong there. Problem is Jedea and Samaria are part of biblical Israel, which I do care about.

I still find it amazing that the arabs can't accept jewish neighborhoods in a future palestine. What's the big deal? That's my thought. I'm more Jewish than Zionist, so it would be acceptable to me for Jews to live in the quote west bank unquote under a different government. Of course, they'd have to protect themselves, but that's taking this form the theoretical to teh practical.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:08:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 2:09:44 AM EST by Sniper_408]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
SETTLERS ARE NOT EXTREMEISTS/MILITANTS/PSYCHOS.

They are people like you and me who live in VERY VERY dangerous areas. That's why they are allowed to carry guns. Problem is every pic of them shows the most outwardly religious settler with the meanest blackest rifle. It's media equivelancy once again.



Regaurdless, it's still possible that the settlers did it. I wasn't there when this happened and you probably weren't there either so we'll never know now will we?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:11:50 AM EST
Both have a claim to Israel. Both have been there since biblical times. They need to find a way to live together. So far, Israel has been willing to do this, the Palestinians are holding out in the hope that they can destroy Israel. They are lucky they are dealing with rational people, or Palestinians would be another word for "genocide victim".

Yeah, the IDF was acting under orders from the government, of course.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:13:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
SETTLERS ARE NOT EXTREMEISTS/MILITANTS/PSYCHOS.

They are people like you and me who live in VERY VERY dangerous areas. That's why they are allowed to carry guns. Problem is every pic of them shows the most outwardly religious settler with the meanest blackest rifle. It's media equivelancy once again.



You are right, Joe, thy are just like everybody else. There is going to be somebody among them who might be pissy enough to go and take take bats and chains to people who are really attempting to simply provide a service to somebody else. You think its stupid? Fine. They weren't standing in front of a bulldozer or waving signs attempting to stop construction. It sounds like this was more robbery than political statement. Of course, if you are going to be walking around a violent place you really ought to go armed, if only to protect those whom you are escorting.

I would say tossup as to who is responsible. Settlers who don't want the Paleos to get help or Paleos who were looking for some easy cash. 50-50


Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:25:21 AM EST
Those dumbasses got what was coming, who cares who did it.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:05:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 3:06:43 AM EST by chapperjoe]
settlers are NOT violent IN FACT THEY'RE NOT SETTLERS. what the HELL does that phrase mean - that they live in a SETTLEMENT??? WTF is a SETTLEMENT? settlers are usually RELIGIOUS JEWS who care more abotu the LAND of Israel than the STATE of Israel. And gues what, ulike religious Muslims who blow up peopl ein the name of god and (oh jeez) religious christains who crusade in the name of god, RELIGIOUS JEWS HAVE NEVER WILL NEVER AND CAN NEVER KILL, CAUSE VIOLENCE OR BODILY HARM, HURT OR DO ANYTHING ELSE TO ANYONE ELSE. (of course in situations of self-defense it's another story)

So, the odds of there EXISTING violent settlers is REAL LOW. "SETTLERS" are mostly very very religious and HUMBLE jews willing to live in conditions of COMPLETE CRAP out of their love of Israel.

Let's keep the anti-Spelites / spelling nazis out of this please
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:07:53 AM EST
chapperjoe, are you anti-semetic?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:08:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
chapperjoe, are you anti-semetic?



I think he said he was Jewish.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:09:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
chapperjoe, are you anti-semetic?



I think he said he was Jewish.




It was a joke - lay off the meds...
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:11:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
chapperjoe, are you anti-semetic?



I think he said he was Jewish.




It was a joke - lay off the meds...



Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:20:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
settlers are NOT violent IN FACT THEY'RE NOT SETTLERS. what the HELL does that phrase mean - that they live in a SETTLEMENT??? WTF is a SETTLEMENT? settlers are usually RELIGIOUS JEWS who care more abotu the LAND of Israel than the STATE of Israel. And gues what, ulike religious Muslims who blow up peopl ein the name of god and (oh jeez) religious christains who crusade in the name of god, RELIGIOUS JEWS HAVE NEVER WILL NEVER AND CAN NEVER KILL, CAUSE VIOLENCE OR BODILY HARM, HURT OR DO ANYTHING ELSE TO ANYONE ELSE. (of course in situations of self-defense it's another story)

So, the odds of there EXISTING violent settlers is REAL LOW. "SETTLERS" are mostly very very religious and HUMBLE jews willing to live in conditions of COMPLETE CRAP out of their love of Israel.

Let's keep the anti-Spelites / spelling nazis out of this please



That is just like saying that Christians CAN NEVER KILL because Christ was against it . . . they are People, just like you and me. Somebody makes a mistake or makes a bad decision. The Israelites who are moving into the areas where the Paleos live have consistently used strongarm tactics to remove the Paleos who live there, taking the best land for themselves and telling the Paleos to just deal with it. When the Paleos get uppity, the IDF sets them straight.

Rather than treating the Paleos like fellow human beings the Israelites have treated them like an infestation. This has done very little to encourage cooperation. THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF THE TERROR TACTICS AND DOUBLE DEALING USED BY THE PALEOS!!!

I simply believe that the Israelites learned very little from the treatment they received for several thousand years.

But if I was a Paleo I would also remember that the Torah (sp?) tells the jews to kill everything in the area that God gave to them . . . man, woman, child, dogs, cattle, etc. Such a policy would be extremely unpopluar these days, but heck, they are not that popular anyway . . . better to be unpopular and in full possession . . .
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:30:41 AM EST
Yes they are whack jobs. They'll shoot at anything that moves. They're part of the problem... not the solution.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:32:17 AM EST


Let's get one thing straight.

Torah FORBIDS, not recommends or suggests, actions like beating up volunteers who are escorting kids to school.

A religious QUOTE settler UNQUOTE could do no such thing. he would not be religious if he did, and settlers are USUALLY very very religious.

Settlers are not violent psychos, consider them like us in America. A liberal sodomite in SanFrancisco sees us as you are looking at settlers.

All misperception.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:34:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 3:41:11 AM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
yeah ok settlers. suuuuuuuuuuure.



So, what....Jewish people are incapable of wrong doing???

Given all they've sufferred, its NOT POSSIBLE they are reacting out of frustration and anger?? Like ANY of us would??

The thing that REALLY scares me about some people is how they COMPLETELY rule out certain possibilities. Such people are EASY fodder to be led around like sheeple.



Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:35:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Let's get one thing straight.

Torah FORBIDS, not recommends or suggests, actions like beating up volunteers who are escorting kids to school.

.



And of course Jews are sinlessly perfect and have NEVER, EVER violated the Torah.



Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:36:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 3:56:55 AM EST by glockguy40]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
settlers are NOT violent IN FACT THEY'RE NOT SETTLERS. what the HELL does that phrase mean - that they live in a SETTLEMENT??? WTF is a SETTLEMENT? settlers are usually RELIGIOUS JEWS who care more abotu the LAND of Israel than the STATE of Israel. And gues what, ulike religious Muslims who blow up peopl ein the name of god and (oh jeez) religious christains who crusade in the name of god, RELIGIOUS JEWS HAVE NEVER WILL NEVER AND CAN NEVER KILL, CAUSE VIOLENCE OR BODILY HARM, HURT OR DO ANYTHING ELSE TO ANYONE ELSE. (of course in situations of self-defense it's another story)

So, the odds of there EXISTING violent settlers is REAL LOW. "SETTLERS" are mostly very very religious and HUMBLE jews willing to live in conditions of COMPLETE CRAP out of their love of Israel.

Let's keep the anti-Spelites / spelling nazis out of this please



ChapperJoe... you are obviously too bias in favor of Israel and Jews to speak objectively on this subject. How can you say never.... do you not remember the Israeli settler that ran into a a Palestinian Mosque and shot 29 palestianians dead while praying. I would say this disqualifies the statement that religious fanatical Jews are incapable of violence don't you????
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:54:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
settlers are NOT violent IN FACT THEY'RE NOT SETTLERS. what the HELL does that phrase mean - that they live in a SETTLEMENT??? WTF is a SETTLEMENT? settlers are usually RELIGIOUS JEWS who care more abotu the LAND of Israel than the STATE of Israel. And gues what, ulike religious Muslims who blow up peopl ein the name of god and (oh jeez) religious christains who crusade in the name of god, RELIGIOUS JEWS HAVE NEVER WILL NEVER AND CAN NEVER KILL, CAUSE VIOLENCE OR BODILY HARM, HURT OR DO ANYTHING ELSE TO ANYONE ELSE. (of course in situations of self-defense it's another story)

So, the odds of there EXISTING violent settlers is REAL LOW. "SETTLERS" are mostly very very religious and HUMBLE jews willing to live in conditions of COMPLETE CRAP out of their love of Israel.

Let's keep the anti-Spelites / spelling nazis out of this please



Violent extremism isn't just for arabs.

Baruch Goldstein

Ami Popper
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:52:45 AM EST
I didn't say religious jews are INCAPABLE OF VIOLENCE. I said that if they are, then THEY ARE NOT RELIGIOUS JEWS. there is no such thing as a religious jew who doens't observe the sabbath - if you don't observe the sabbath YOU'RE NOT RELIGIOUS. so too, there is no such thing as a religious jew who kills, maims or injures people who escort kids to school. This is a simple fact. you're not religious if you don't follow the rules. period.

My logical leap, however, was that settlers are generally quite religious and would never do such a thing. Is it possible that a NON-RELIGIOUS settler did this, OF COURSE ITS POSSIBLE. is it PROBABLE that a RELIGIOUS SETTLER did this? no. Possible is baruch goldstein being one out of 12 million jews who was a terrorist - 1 out of 12 million is a possibility. (e.g. it's POSSIBLE that aliens exist or that garandman finished high school.) But PROBABLE is a whole new story. Probable is like 19 terrorists crashing planes into us, so we pull over muslims on bridges cause its more PROBABLE that they are a threat than WASP's. Probable is the chance of the lakers winning the championship. Probable is a nation of people whose charter is devoted to the extermination of Israel, one of whom chooses to beat up westerners.

Probable is NOT the 1/12,000,000 jews who could do this.


Read people. read...think...read again....respond. in that order.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:57:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I didn't say religious jews are INCAPABLE OF VIOLENCE. I said that if they are, then THEY ARE NOT RELIGIOUS JEWS.



Adherence to a religion has NEVER made one a perfect inerrant follower of that religions tenets.

Yes, a "religious" Jew IS capable of ANYTHING. AS are Christians.




. (e.g. it's POSSIBLE that aliens exist or that garandman finished high school.) But PROBABLE is a whole new story. .



Tell me - do "religious Jews" insult people in Pavlovian fashion? What does the Torah say about THAT?





Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:58:22 AM EST

ChapperJoe... you are obviously too bias in favor of Israel and Jews to speak objectively on this subject.


you are very very wrong.


How can you say never.... do you not remember the Israeli settler that ran into a a Palestinian Mosque and shot 29 palestianians dead while praying. I would say this disqualifies the statement that religious fanatical Jews are incapable of violence don't you????


And you would be wrong. He wasn't religious, he violated many commandments that day and beforehand, fo r that matter, and was thus NOT AN OBSERVANT JEW, not a RELIGIOUS JEW.

you can't be religious and NOT follow the rules.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:59:07 AM EST
garandman


Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:02:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 6:04:50 AM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:


you can't be religious and NOT follow the rules.



Do you beelive in "sinless perfection?"

That once a person latches on to a particualr religion, they will always follow all its tenants, and never err???

I think what you are trying to say is "NO ONE who truly follows Jewish doctrine would break teh rules"

Which is COMPLETELY different than what you SHOUTED above.

The differnce is that the rrules are the rules. But people remain sinful.

And ANY Jew, even religious Jews, are capable of ANYTHING. As are Christians.

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:03:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
garandman





Let's put your theory to the test -

1. Are you a "religous Jew?"

2. Why did you violate the Torah in insulting me?



Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:30:35 AM EST

once a person latches on to a particualr religion, they will always follow all its tenants, and never err???


I didn't say Jewish people. I said religious Jewish people. There are millions of non-religious Jews, most aren't religious actually. They don't claim to be, and I don't hold htem to any standard etc. What you do is your business.. BUT you are not a religious Jew if you don't follow the rules, you would then be a non-religious Jew. There is no if and or but here. this is defiinition-type fact here.


1. Are you a "religous Jew?"

I proudly am.

2. Why did you violate the Torah in insulting me?

cause I'm a religious Jew who doesn't follow the torah.

<­BR>





­

Just kidding of course.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:38:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:48:36 AM EST
Christians escorting muslims through jewish held territory must have been attacked by, HINDUS!
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:53:42 AM EST
Got the popcorn and beer.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:54:37 AM EST
all this becuase groups of people cant learn to get along...

fucking stupid if you ask me...
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:00:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 7:00:52 AM EST by sterling18]

Originally Posted By manghu67:
all this becuase groups of people cant learn to get along...

fucking stupid if you ask me...



Like two kids in the sandbox.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:00:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
settlers are NOT violent IN FACT THEY'RE NOT SETTLERS. what the HELL does that phrase mean - that they live in a SETTLEMENT??? WTF is a SETTLEMENT? settlers are usually RELIGIOUS JEWS who care more abotu the LAND of Israel than the STATE of Israel. And gues what, ulike religious Muslims who blow up peopl ein the name of god and (oh jeez) religious christains who crusade in the name of god, RELIGIOUS JEWS HAVE NEVER WILL NEVER AND CAN NEVER KILL, CAUSE VIOLENCE OR BODILY HARM, HURT OR DO ANYTHING ELSE TO ANYONE ELSE. (of course in situations of self-defense it's another story)

So, the odds of there EXISTING violent settlers is REAL LOW. "SETTLERS" are mostly very very religious and HUMBLE jews willing to live in conditions of COMPLETE CRAP out of their love of Israel.

Let's keep the anti-Spelites / spelling nazis out of this please



ChapperJoe... you are obviously too bias in favor of Israel and Jews to speak objectively on this subject. How can you say never.... do you not remember the Israeli settler that ran into a a Palestinian Mosque and shot 29 palestianians dead while praying. I would say this disqualifies the statement that religious fanatical Jews are incapable of violence don't you????




Mmm? When was that?

Oh well.

*adds 29 tallies to his tally board*

- BG
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:43:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Both have a claim to Israel. Both have been there since biblical times. They need to find a way to live together.



+1
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:53:15 AM EST

Both have a claim to Israel. Both have been there since biblical times.


not even gonna bother.
Y'all need a major history lesson though.

[[[[
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:55:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vector_Joe:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Both have a claim to Israel. Both have been there since biblical times. They need to find a way to live together.



+1



That is simply not true. For one thing, Islam has only existed since the 590's and only possesed Palistine since 649.
And there has never NOT been at least a token Jewish presence in what is now Israel. Even when Romans leveled Jerusalem the city area was reoccupied within months.

Jews helped the Arabs subvert Byzantine rule in the area, in the 640's and again against the Crusaders in the 12th and 13th centuries because at the time the Christians were the bigger, more violent biggots.

Arab/Muslim hostility to Jews begins only in the late 19th century, as the Ottoman Empire declined, a scapegoat was needed and the Jews became it, accused of being in league with the Western Powers that were picking away and the dying Empires carcass.

This same weakness of the Muslims also led to the rise of Zionism and the idea of Return for Jews to the holy land.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:03:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
SETTLERS ARE NOT EXTREMEISTS/MILITANTS/PSYCHOS.

They are people like you and me who live in VERY VERY dangerous areas. That's why they are allowed to carry guns. Problem is every pic of them shows the most outwardly religious settler with the meanest blackest rifle. It's media equivelancy once again.



You are right, Joe, thy are just like everybody else. There is going to be somebody among them who might be pissy enough to go and take take bats and chains to people who are really attempting to simply provide a service to somebody else. You think its stupid? Fine. They weren't standing in front of a bulldozer or waving signs attempting to stop construction. It sounds like this was more robbery than political statement. Of course, if you are going to be walking around a violent place you really ought to go armed, if only to protect those whom you are escorting.

I would say tossup as to who is responsible. Settlers who don't want the Paleos to get help or Paleos who were looking for some easy cash. 50-50





Still trying to hurt maim and kill someone who's actually trying to be nice to them? Sounds very Palestinian IMO.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:06:50 AM EST
The present day arabs were mostly imported from the stan's by the early ottomans. They kept shifting teh populations of the area when teh center of power of Islam/Ottoman Empire moved around the area, from constantinople, to cairo to damascus baghdad etc. Everyone usually wanted to keep Jerusalem out of the picture and unable to take 'first city' status away from them.......

Not to mention the fact that the post-sinai inhabitants were all killed say for the real PHilishtim or Gaza Ashdod and Ashkelon, who were sea people. We fought them alot, they counced to crete.

Not to mention the fac that when you FLEE your home waiting for 6 arab countries to defeat israel, I think that means you gave it up. And the land you FLED to is not yours either. no matter how many flase claims are thrown at the bitish or israelis.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:34:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By Vector_Joe:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Both have a claim to Israel. Both have been there since biblical times. They need to find a way to live together.



+1



That is simply not true. For one thing, Islam has only existed since the 590's and only possesed Palistine since 649.
And there has never NOT been at least a token Jewish presence in what is now Israel. Even when Romans leveled Jerusalem the city area was reoccupied within months.

Jews helped the Arabs subvert Byzantine rule in the area, in the 640's and again against the Crusaders in the 12th and 13th centuries because at the time the Christians were the bigger, more violent biggots.

Arab/Muslim hostility to Jews begins only in the late 19th century, as the Ottoman Empire declined, a scapegoat was needed and the Jews became it, accused of being in league with the Western Powers that were picking away and the dying Empires carcass.

This same weakness of the Muslims also led to the rise of Zionism and the idea of Return for Jews to the holy land.



Look, I'm not an expert on the region at all, so I am asking this cause I don't know the answer.

Were there were other cultures who lived in the region that were not hebrew/jewish and that dated back to biblical times?

If so, do their descendants have any claim to land in the region?

This is disregarding any particular religion, I'm talking about cultures or groups of poeple.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:37:27 AM EST
My other question is who lived on the land that is present day Israel/Palestine before the creation of the 'state of israel'?

And how long did they live there before 'the state of israel' was created?

btw the only reason why I term it 'state of israel' is to differentiate it from the traditional jewish people no matter where they live.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:55:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vector_Joe:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By Vector_Joe:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Both have a claim to Israel. Both have been there since biblical times. They need to find a way to live together.



+1



That is simply not true. For one thing, Islam has only existed since the 590's and only possesed Palistine since 649.
And there has never NOT been at least a token Jewish presence in what is now Israel. Even when Romans leveled Jerusalem the city area was reoccupied within months.

Jews helped the Arabs subvert Byzantine rule in the area, in the 640's and again against the Crusaders in the 12th and 13th centuries because at the time the Christians were the bigger, more violent biggots.

Arab/Muslim hostility to Jews begins only in the late 19th century, as the Ottoman Empire declined, a scapegoat was needed and the Jews became it, accused of being in league with the Western Powers that were picking away and the dying Empires carcass.

This same weakness of the Muslims also led to the rise of Zionism and the idea of Return for Jews to the holy land.



Look, I'm not an expert on the region at all, so I am asking this cause I don't know the answer.

Were there were other cultures who lived in the region that were not hebrew/jewish and that dated back to biblical times?

If so, do their descendants have any claim to land in the region?

This is disregarding any particular religion, I'm talking about cultures or groups of poeple.



There are still Samaritans there. And yes, the same as in the Bible. They have a web site I think. They have almost vanished due to their small population, but many have been assimilated into mainstream Judaism since the 67 war. They were seperated from the Israelites around the time of the scribe Ezra.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 9:04:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
SETTLERS ARE NOT EXTREMEISTS/MILITANTS/PSYCHOS.

They are people like you and me who live in VERY VERY dangerous areas. That's why they are allowed to carry guns. Problem is every pic of them shows the most outwardly religious settler with the meanest blackest rifle. It's media equivelancy once again.



The settlers can be very nasty and abusive towards Palestinians. The settlers are in general among the most right-wing and extreme of Israeli society.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 12:18:18 PM EST
You mean like the peaceful non-violent religious settlers referrred to here
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1096344047117&p=1078027574097

or the Rabbi that called for the Assasination of Sharon?
or this "religious" settler
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1096259489005

Likud and others have used the Settlements as a political tool for years. They and others have allowed expansion (legal or illegal, doesn't matter what you call it, it was a tool) to further their political careers.

Now it's time to go and they don't want to go.

Or the Kach party or related groups that are trying to retake the Temple Mount

The settlers, and many recent are illegal, that are refusing to evacuate are just going to ignite more problems.
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