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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 12/15/2003 5:17:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 5:23:36 PM EDT by garandman]
THis is part of a larger document I did re: concealed carry in South Carolina churches.

I post it now to disppell the FALSE notion that God is against guns (I could care less what "Christians' are for or against)

_______________________


Such are the facts and figures relating to concealed carry.  But what saith the Scriptures??

· We know that Peter carried a sword – the type of ordinary military usage.  When he cut off the high priests servant ear, Christ instructed Peter to re-sheathe his sword, NOT to get rid of it. Christ’s objection was NOT to Peter’s possession of a sword, but rather in Peters timing in this particular instance.

· We also realize God has promised to provide all our needs, including food and protection from evil. Just as the Bible commands us to work so that we may eat, it follows we ALSO have a role in protecting ourselves, just as we have a role in feeding ourselves. Legalized concealed carry may well be God’s provision for His people to protect themselves. And as we are commanded to bear one another’s burdens, it follows that one of those burdens is protection from evil.

· Ephesians 6 speaks of taking the “whole armor of God.” While we know these to be spiritual, intangible items, the larger point is found in v. 13  - “that you will be able to resist in the evil day, having done everything, to stand.” It would be easy to see these days as mankinds most evil days yet, as evidenced by even children shooting children. Many regard their state and Federal right to carry a firearm as their God-given empowerment to do their God-given duty – to resist evil, and to have done everything they can to stand against the evil one.

· In Christ’s final instructions to His disciples, He states “…he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” (Luke 22:36) While theologians can debate the specific application of this text, one thing is certain: there is no possible way, whatever our Lord meant, that He would use an illustration (“go buy a sword”) of something He considered unscriptural or ungodly. Rather, the Lord seems to be indicating weapons have their place even in a believer’s life. And certainly Christ was not of the position that there is anything immoral in an inanimate object.

· Many may argue “God is in control” or “my life is in God’s hands.” But we would not use this to justify crossing  a busy street without looking both ways. Mattherw 4:7 commands us “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.” We are not to live our lives in a fashion to dare the Lord to take care of us. We are to use the physical means of protection God has allowed in the world around us to take care of ourselves. Are we CERTAIN this doesn’t include firearms and concealed carry? It is only BEYOND that point, where we utilize those physical means God has already provided, that we are to trust in Him.

· John 15:13 tells us that there is no greater love, than when a man would lay his life down for his friend. It is that kind of love that Christ exhibited, and wanted us to emulate, when He gave Himself on the cross. Many regard the duty and priviledge of carrying a concealed firearm in defense of others to be, as Eph 6:13 says “…to resist in the evil day (moment), having done everything to stand…” Everything.

· Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands to love their wives, even as Christ loved the church.  The illustration given of HOW to love their wives is most interesting – “He gave Himself up for her” (speaking of Christ and the church.) Husbands are similarly to give themselves up for their wives- to the point of physical death. If protecting the wife is that important, where the husbands physical life becomes a secondary consideration, would not God have us have “done everything to stand…in the evil day?” Would not “everything” include using a simple tool that even unbelievers in state and Federal government have made available to us to protect our spouses with? Might NOT using these simple tools cause even those unbelievers to mock our Christ?

· Romans 12:18 indicates peace may not be possible at certain times. “If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.” The clause “so far as it depends on you” indicates we are not to give offense But it is also a caveat indicating that it doesn’t always depend on you.  It is at those times that the “peace” is to be breached, and violence done in self-defense, for the purpose of restoring peace, until it can depend solely on you again.

· Matthew 25 speaks of the talents God gave for men to invest for him. Scripturally, “talents” were a monetary unit, but  in a Divine sense of irony, application can also be made to our  inclinations and abilities. There are, within the body of Christ, those with the inclination and ability to stand armed, in defense of God’s people, certain of whom may themselves not be of the ability to defend themselves. Those of that inclination and ability should be allowed to use their God-given talents.  Luke 17: 2 indicates it would be better for a man to have a millstone tied about his neck, than to offend one of these little ones. If harming one of the defenseless children is that despicable in God’s sight, can allowing them to be harmed be much better?

· I Timothy 5: 8 tells us that those who don’t provide for their own household are worse than an infidel. We’ve always taken that to mean food and shelter. But God can provide food and shelter – He did so with David, and Elijah, and Noah and countless other Scriptural examples. What makes us think I Timothy 5 excludes physical protection, and excludes firearms as a tool of that protection? God can provide any of our needs, including food and safety,  but He commands husbands and fathers to do the work to make them available to their family.

Obviously, Scripture doesn’t speak either of firearms or concealed carry of firearms. But it does speak of weapons, and never in a negative light. Actions and motives, not objects, are to be judged as to their measuring up to God’s standards. Scripture never comes right out and says we’re to build a huge bunker around our homes, mount machine guns on the corner turrets, or be weighted down with ordnance when we go to town. But Scripture does make the following points:  we are to resist evil (I believe murder qualifies as “evil”) we are to care for those in our God given chain of responsibility, we are to use the inclinations and abilities God has given us for the advancement of His kingdom, and we are to emulate Christ’s love in a willingness to lay down our lives, to save that of our friend. Others may disagree, and in Christ we love them as they do us, but some among us take that to mean the utilization of a simple tool called a firearm. Lastly, Scripture tells us we are not to tempt God in requiring He do for us what He has already Divinely provided us the ability to do for ourselves.

In summary, no single Scripture can be used to make the case for legal concealed carry. But the greater weight of the whole of Scripture certainly does not prohibit self-defense, and rather indicates some among us take the steps necessary to protect the weak, and stand against the evil.



Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:20:31 PM EDT
Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:31:53 PM EDT
Thanks G-man.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:34:13 PM EDT
Good deal! I found this this also
[url]http://www.macro-inc.com/ChristiansAndGuns.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:36:44 PM EDT
I know what he was thinking in Luke 22, Peter: "Lord, we have two." "It is enough" : One pistol and one rifle, just enough!
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:38:51 PM EDT
This sort of thing explains why I laugh myself silly when I hear people criticizing "ignorant fundamentalists." The intellectual wattage deployed for explication of holy scripture is sufficient to light and sustain another sun.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:39:04 PM EDT
Thanks, awesome post.



Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:41:50 PM EDT
I didn't even think gunpowder was invented back then.

Well I learned somthing new today.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:41:55 PM EDT
If God is against good people using weapons for protection, that means He sanctions evil doers who rape, maim, and kill.

I just don't buy that. Thanks G-man.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:56:09 PM EDT
The enimies that want us to believe that probably read the book "Drama of the Lost Diciples".  They would like us to think that it is "unChristian" to be armed. The Christians in Britain put up a fight that the Romans never could prevail against. They knew what the Master meant when he said to buy a sword.  The sword at that time was every bit as modern as any weapon carried buy Ceaser's SWAT team.

My sig-line says it all
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:56:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SGTIMAK:
Thanks, awesome post.



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The above is (hopefully) just God's words showing God's awesomeness.

If I limited myself to re-telling God's words and thoughts in my posts, ALL my posts would appear "awesome."

.

Its when I freelance that I get stupid.

[:D]

Link Posted: 12/15/2003 7:48:17 PM EDT
Post added so this thread will be on my active topics. Great post.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 2:36:02 AM EDT
Nice but unfortunately the people that are anti gun are also anti Christian.  I don't think the bible will convince them of anything.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 3:10:51 AM EDT
Well done.

However...

(I could care less what "Christians' are for or against)
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I guess you don't care what I think. [:D]

Link Posted: 12/16/2003 4:15:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:


(I could care less what "Christians' are for or against)
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I guess you don't care what I think. [:D]

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Hardly.

Its just that the word "Christian" has been abused to the point that all it means is "NOT a cannibal."



Link Posted: 12/16/2003 4:29:08 AM EDT
Well that's a fine "how do you do ?" to all the cannibal Christians out there![lol]
I believe if I was doing something wrong or evil by owning guns, God would have spoken to me about it already. Guns are the tool by which we secured our freedom in America. It is the basic human freedom that makes life worth living. I can't imagine God would want his kids under the thumb of a ruthless dictator like Saddam. Unable to "Stand" against evil. He also commands us to resist evil with every fiber of our being. I think that says it all.[:D]

PS. I'm not a cannibal.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 4:37:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
If God is against good people using weapons for protection, that means He sanctions evil doers who rape, maim, and kill.

I just don't buy that. Thanks G-man.
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Not really....

I mean...it's more than clear that God does not sanction evil doers, regardless of good folks having guns or not having guns.  

But, as Garandman said, He is not a member of HCI!.  [:D]  

Scott
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 4:58:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Swordslinger:
The Christians in Britain put up a fight that the Romans never could prevail against. They knew what the Master meant when he said to buy a sword.  
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Good Post G-man?

Haven't heard of this book, but surely the britons who put up a afight against the romans would have been Celtic or Pictish pagans. Later on we had persecuted Christians here too, I expect.

Somebody please shine a light on my ignorance here while I go and look this book up.

/Phil

Also a sword-slinger.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 5:03:54 AM EDT
[:D]
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 5:24:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:

Such are the facts and figures relating to concealed carry.  But what saith the Scriptures??

· We know that Peter carried a sword – the type of ordinary military usage.  When he cut off the high priests servant ear, Christ instructed Peter to re-sheathe his sword, NOT to get rid of it. Christ’s objection was NOT to Peter’s possession of a sword, but rather in Peters timing in this particular instance.
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It's also worth noting, that Peter could handle the Sword well enough, as to be able to lop off an ear, without doing any other damage....

Pretty good sword-play, for a "pacifist"... [:D]
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 6:41:06 AM EDT
I view weapons as a gift from God....

How else are we going to remove evil in this reality?

[:D]

Dirk
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:04:40 AM EDT
So, does anyone here know of any scripture against owning of weapons? I realize Jesus was a peace loving man, but is there any specific or non-specific passage that anti-gun christians often quote?
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:21:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Juell:
So, does anyone here know of any scripture against owning of weapons? I realize Jesus was a peace loving man, but is there any specific or non-specific passage that anti-gun christians often quote?
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There are none that specifically say we can't be armed and defend ourselves and families.

Jesus wasn't just a "peace loving man".  He was and is the Prince of Peace.

And there is no more peaceable society than one where free men are well-armed.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:26:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By Juell:
So, does anyone here know of any scripture against owning of weapons? I realize Jesus was a peace loving man, but is there any specific or non-specific passage that anti-gun christians often quote?
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There are none that specifically say we can't be armed and defend ourselves and families.

Jesus wasn't just a "peace loving man".  He was and is the Prince of Peace.

And there is no more peaceable society than one where free men are well-armed.
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An armed society, is a polite society.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:34:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Juell:
So, does anyone here know of any scripture against owning of weapons? I realize Jesus was a peace loving man, but is there any specific or non-specific passage that anti-gun christians often quote?
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Much of their "Scriptural" objection is with VERY loose reference to "God is love" or "turn the other cheek" and stuff like that. All of which are taken out of context.

One of their more famous butcheries of Scripture is "Thou shalt not kill." But the text of Exodus 20 is properly translanted "Thou shalt not do murder" which is something ENTIRELY different than self defense.

Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:46:19 AM EDT
I always thought God loved guns because they keep heaven full of fresh souls.

Excellent, well thought out and researched post. High quality. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:50:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
I always thought God loved guns because they keep heaven full of fresh souls.

. [:D]
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Guns send folks to hell too. [devil]

The ones that NEED killin', ya know.

[:D]


Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:10:11 AM EDT
Here's my stupid question...

I know Jesus is always portrayed as a man of super peace, but has anyone ever thought the following:

A) Did Jesus himself carry a sword?
B) Considering how hated He was by high officials, does anyone think Jesus and the disciples ever got into a fight, and had to use their swords?
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:17:45 AM EDT
Great post Gman.


GBY

Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:18:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Halfcocked:
I didn't even think gunpowder was invented back then.

Well I learned somthing new today.
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Your /nick explains this post from you, HALFCOCKED.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:50:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By REALM:
Here's my stupid question...

I know Jesus is always portrayed as a man of super peace, but has anyone ever thought the following:

A) Did Jesus himself carry a sword?
B) Considering how hated He was by high officials, does anyone think Jesus and the disciples ever got into a fight, and had to use their swords?
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Jesus came to earth to die for mens sins, and rise again. "No man taketh my life from me, I lay it down myself" He said.

However, the Jews several times tried to kill Him ahead of schedule. He disgusied Himself and merely walked away from them.

He was / is God. He had no need for a weapon.


As to "B" Peter did in fact use his sword in Jesus presence. The incident has been refernced above in this thread.


Link Posted: 12/16/2003 9:17:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2003 9:18:15 AM EDT by REALM]
GM... I agree, but a couple of things...

If Jesus had no need for a weapon, why did any of the disciples who traveled with Him?  If they were truly following his lead, wouldn't they choose to be like Christ and not carry at all?  I agree, I have serious problems seeing Jesus as carrying a sword, but yet it would seem hypocritical for him to command his men to carry a sword and he himself carry none.

... and as for when Peter used his sword, I agree, but I have trouble believing that in the many years of Jesus's ministry that this was the only time a sword was ever needed.  The Bible doesn't include everything that happened in their lives or every incident that took place, so what about other incidents, is there any other historical evidence or ideas of other incidents that may have taken place where the disciples were required to defend themselves?

What about in all the other books that the Church chose not to include in the accepted Bible of today?
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 9:24:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By REALM:
GM... I agree, but a couple of things...

If Jesus had no need for a weapon, why did any of the disciples who traveled with Him?
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He is God. They aren't. He had control over how and when He died. They didn't, and they planned accordingly.

If they were truly following his lead, wouldn't they choose to be like Christ and not carry at all?  I agree, I have serious problems seeing Jesus as carrying a sword, but yet it would seem hypocritical for him to command his men to carry a sword and he himself carry none.
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There are MANY things Jesus did that we will never be able to. So you cannot make a blanket statement that "we should be like Jesus."

... and as for when Peter used his sword, I agree, but I have trouble believing that in the many years of Jesus's ministry that this was the only time a sword was ever needed.  The Bible doesn't include everything that happened in their lives or every incident that took place, so what about other incidents, is there any other historical evidence or ideas of other incidents that may have taken place where the disciples were required to defend themselves?
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QUITE correct. The Bible tells us that ENUF is recorded for us to beleive that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Also, it tells us that if everything Jesus did was recorded in books, the whole world coulnd't contain them.

My perspective is this - the Bible does NOT indicated Jesus carried a sword. But then it doesn't say He didn't either.

But with Him being God, if we are gonna speculate, all we know for sure is that He had no need of  a sword. And that's all we know for sure.

Link Posted: 12/16/2003 10:20:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
He is God. They aren't. He had control over how and when He died. They didn't, and they planned accordingly.
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I agree with that, and honestly the thought of Jesus himself carrying a sword never crossed my mind until today, I always assumed He didn't since He has been portrayed as the Son Of God and is love, but yet, if self defense is not bad, I guess my mind can't help but realize that even though Jesus may not have needed a sword, it should not be wrong for him to carry one either.

There are MANY things Jesus did that we will never be able to. So you cannot make a blanket statement that "we should be like Jesus."
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I fully agree with you on this, I guess the difference is that overall in the teaching of Christianity, you will often here, "We need to be like Jesus."  I agree with you though, He was the Son of God, mortal man cannot control the things He could.

QUITE correct. The Bible tells us that ENUF is recorded for us to beleive that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Also, it tells us that if everything Jesus did was recorded in books, the whole world coulnd't contain them.

My perspective is this - the Bible does NOT indicated Jesus carried a sword. But then it doesn't say He didn't either.

But with Him being God, if we are gonna speculate, all we know for sure is that He had no need of  a sword. And that's all we know for sure.
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Good point.  Do you think however that the disciples were ever in a fight where they had to defend themselves?  I wonder if they trained with their swords?  It just seems so weird to think about, I've never thought about it before, but for Peter to be able to draw and whack off a trained guards ear he must have been pretty proficient don't ya think?
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 11:23:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By REALM:
 Do you think however that the disciples were ever in a fight where they had to defend themselves?  I wonder if they trained with their swords?  It just seems so weird to think about, I've never thought about it before, but for Peter to be able to draw and whack off a trained guards ear he must have been pretty proficient don't ya think?
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Peter brought his sword to the Garden of Gethsemane EXPECTING trouble. His proficieny with that sword indicates he practiced - often.

Also keep in mind the Jewish mindset of the time. They wanted freedom from Rome. When Jesus was crucified, he was given in a prisoner exchange for Barabbas, a Jewish  insurrectionist, jailed for planning revolt from Roman rule.

The Jews were ready for armed conflict with Rome, and had hopes that the Christ was to lead them in that rebellion.

I find it very reasonable that Peter had indeed trained with that sword. Whether or not he actually used it prior to lopping of the high priests servants ear would, however, only be speculation.

Link Posted: 12/16/2003 6:29:33 PM EDT
Here's a cultural question: Were there any laws that forbade citizens from owning weapons at that time? Were there any Roman or Jewish laws that governed the use of swords or other weapons?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 3:53:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Here's a cultural question: Were there any laws that forbade citizens from owning weapons at that time? Were there any Roman or Jewish laws that governed the use of swords or other weapons?
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Stephen Halbrook wrote a book called "That Every Man Be Armed" which details the debate that raged even then about whether ordinary citizens should be armed.

I beleive it was Plato vs. Aristotle arguing the issue, Plato supporting an armed citizenry, Aristotle supporting the supremacy of teh government (if I recall correctly)

Greece being a law and order kind of place, I'm sure they did have laws / customs, tho I can't remember any specifically.

Look up Halbrooks book (above) for more details.

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:23:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 7:31:14 AM EDT by Zaphod]
Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
This sort of thing explains why I laugh myself silly when I hear people criticizing "ignorant fundamentalists." The intellectual wattage deployed for explication of holy scripture is sufficient to light and sustain another sun.
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Not always, my friend... [:(]

I've been involved with a "conversation" with a "Christian" on another site, and believe you me, there are plenty of fundamentalist "Christians" out there who couldn't power a 1-watt bulb, let alone the sun.

This guy quotes Scripture ad nauseam, explaining how violence is wrong in ANY case, even in personal self-defense. He has stated that wars are always evil vs. a greater evil, and that all wars are unjust, illegal, and ungodly.

I've tried to reason with him, but I've been forced to just dismiss him as a complete idiot. It's people like him, who think the Scriptures require you to be the doormat for every evil person in the world, that give the rest of us a bad name.

On that site, our soldiers have been labeled as evil, our President as un-Christian and also evil, our enemies as lost souls to be prayed for, but me bound for hellfire because I called him an idiot. [rolleyes]

Sadly, not all Christians choose to utilize the mind the Lord gave them, as Brother Garandman has so obviously done in his article.

It makes me sick. I don't know whether to feel sorry for them ([puke]) or just treat them as the cowards they are (not ver Christ-like, I'll admit).

Just sick to my stomach...
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:25:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
[Hardly.

Its just that the word "Christian" has been abused to the point that all it means is "NOT a cannibal."
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Depends who you ask. Some call us precisely that.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:09:09 AM EDT
Jesus was more of a provocateur.

Matthew 10:45 - I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:44:03 AM EDT
I think I am going to go out right now and buy another gun, and another bible, for they are both things I beleive you can never have too many of
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 3:23:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By REALM:
Here's my stupid question...

I know Jesus is always portrayed as a man of super peace, but has anyone ever thought the following:

A) Did Jesus himself carry a sword?
B) Considering how hated He was by high officials, does anyone think Jesus and the disciples ever got into a fight, and had to use their swords?
View Quote


Even if he didn't carry or own a sword, as a carpenter he definately owned the tools and skills that could be just as effective.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 4:25:30 AM EDT
May I use this with credit to you? Thanks, Gman, good post.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 5:03:43 AM EDT
You're preaching to the choir.[:D]

Thank you for the well thought-out post.  
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 4:39:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby:
May I use this with credit to you? Thanks, Gman, good post.
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Sure.

But giving credit to me is like giving credit to the guy who sold da Vinci a paintbrush.

Put the credit where its due, my friend.

[:D]



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