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Posted: 5/2/2009 7:36:49 AM EDT
We're always talking about "liberalism" and "conservatives".  However, at the moment, the country seems to have a better idea of what liberalism is vs. what it means to be a real conservative.  For this I blaim the RINOs.  So, this being ARFCOM, I figured what better place then this to come up with the "10 Commandments of Conservatism", or whatever other cute name we want to come up with.  I'll start with...

*A true conservative believes in fiscal responsibilty.  You only spent what you have and earn.

*A true conservative believes in the Constitution of the United States as explained by the Founding Fathers, not as reinterpreted and reexplained by those simply using it for their own political purposes.

Please add to the list.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 7:40:05 AM EDT
Conservative used to mean someone who:

- Supported Low Taxes
- Opposed Gun Control
- Supported Strong National Defense
- Opposed Abortion

Hell, if you stood for those four things 20 years ago then you were are a right wing extremists nut job. I guess old fashioned conservatism isn't good enough anymore.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 7:58:13 AM EDT
Those who believe in limiting the role of the Federal Government and limiting its intrusion into both the business and personal lives of the individual corporation and citizen.

I was told not to get caught up in Republican platform when defining the term conservative, because It appears that they currently are miles apart.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 7:59:14 AM EDT
Favoring personaly responsibility and self-reliance over reliance on government.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 8:25:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JCKnife:
Favoring personaly responsibility and self-reliance over reliance on government.


Yes. Great one.

If you look at the word "conservative", what is a conservative trying to "preserve"?  

Self-reliance is a huge one.

Link Posted: 5/2/2009 8:30:34 AM EDT
A conservative is someone who makes their decisions about daily life and personal beliefs with their mind rather than their emotions.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 8:31:28 AM EDT
about 100 years ago conservative meant what libertarian means today. in another 100 years conservative will mean not wanting the government to get much bigger than it will be at the end of next year, and what we know as libertarian today will be known as some barbaric concept clung to by a bunch of retro-grades that were throwbacks to previous stages of evolution.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 8:37:09 AM EDT
I think the responses so far sum it up nicely.  I don't think any more "features" are required.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 8:38:44 AM EDT
If you believe in the Constitution of the United States of America  you are a Conservative.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 8:46:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2009 9:08:19 AM EDT by silverstate55]
Derp derp derp derp

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 8:49:37 AM EDT
Read my sig line.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 8:51:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By silverstate55:
That it is vital to maintain a strong & capable military, in order to properly defend our country & keep her citizens safe. The Soviets did this. Would they be considered Conservative?

That terrorism is an act of WAR, and as such deserves a military response, not a law enforcement response. Chinese and Russians do this. Are they conservative?

That all citizens deserve equal protection under the law; no group of people, regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, religious beliefs (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, or any other real or perceived differences, do not deserve nor shall receive any more protections under the law than the Constitution already affords to ALL citizens.

That all people are created equal, and shall be treated as equals; there is no such thing as "separate but equal."



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile





Link Posted: 5/2/2009 8:57:23 AM EDT
conservatives have a brain, they think for themselvs.  they enjoy freedom, don't need the government to tell them what to do.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 9:05:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PUBBOY:
Originally Posted By silverstate55:
That it is vital to maintain a strong & capable military, in order to properly defend our country & keep her citizens safe. The Soviets did this. Would they be considered Conservative?

That terrorism is an act of WAR, and as such deserves a military response, not a law enforcement response. Chinese and Russians do this. Are they conservative?

That all citizens deserve equal protection under the law; no group of people, regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, religious beliefs (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, or any other real or perceived differences, do not deserve nor shall receive any more protections under the law than the Constitution already affords to ALL citizens.

That all people are created equal, and shall be treated as equals; there is no such thing as "separate but equal."



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile







Yeah sure, if you say so.  I was just adding to the list, I didn't realize that I needed to give a dissertation and list every single point.

You're right, we should leave our national defense to the UN; they have our best interests in mind & really should start putting our tax dollars to better use.

And since treating terrorism as a military problem after 9/11 has been such a disaster for us, we should go back to the Clinton Doctrine of the 90s that DID work so well.  My bad.



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 9:13:35 AM EDT
Most people think if you're like Reagan, you're a Conservative.

Was Reagan a Conservative?



1.  Conservatives are strong on defense of America;  liberals are dovish peaceniks.

But after Hizbullah bombed the Embassy and Marine barracks in Lebanon, Reagan cut and ran, ordering all US troops out. (He quickly invaded Grenada, a nation which to all appearances had nothing to do with Muslim terrorists.)

2.  Conservatives advocate family values;  liberals are anti-marriage, free-love hippies.

But Reagan was married and divorced in violation of Matt. 3;  also Nancy delivered a full term baby 7.5 months after she and Ron were married.  Ron also had children he was estranged from.

3.  Conservatives are pro gun;  liberals are gun restrictors.

But in 1987 Reagan ordered BATF not to license any more NFA full auto guns.

4.  Conservatives are anti-Communist;  liberals are fellow-travellers.

In 1979, The Evil USSR Empire invaded Afghanistan.  Democrat named Jimmy Carter cut off all grain and tech sales to the USSR.  One of Reagan’s first acts in office was to open up the tap to the Russkies.

5.  Conservatives manage the people’s money;  liberals are tax-borrow-and spend-aholics.

But Reagan’s defecits were bigger than all his predecessor’s put together, Washington through Carter.  He was the first of the Big Deficit presidents.

6.  Conservatives are for a strong American economy;  liberals don’t know what that means.

When Reagan was elected, America was the world’s largest creditor nation.
When Reagan left office, America was the world’s largest debtor nation.

7.  Conservatives are churchgoers;  liberals are not.

But the only time Reagan attended was during his two campaigns.  After each election, he back-slid, citing security concerns (which didn’t bother Carter, Clinton or the two Bushes).

8.  Conservatives defend American borders;  liberals are pro-wetback.

But Reagan gave amnesty to three million illegals;  now we have 13 million to contend with.

9.  Conservatives don’t practice sorcery;  liberals are new-age weirdos.

But the Reagans had a Kalifornia sooth-sayer advise them on setting the White House calendar.

10.  Conservatives respect the Constitution;  liberals do what they want.

But Reagan sold arms to our fanatical terrorist enemies in Iran to fund an illegal terrorist war in Central America.

11.  Conservatives cut taxes;  liberals raise taxes.

But Reagan raised taxes $168 billion, mostly on the workers via the Social Security tax increase.



Reagan was a liberal.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 9:15:17 AM EDT
Just how much real difference can there be when both sides wanted Ike to be their candidate.
I have no idea how effective the Tower of Babel was in the past but it's pretty effective today, even amongst just the English speakers.




Jeez, when you get businesses "too big to fail" you start to live the words of Dylan,




there's no success like failure

And that failure's no success at all.






The collective has taken a good hold.   I'm not sure it can be shaken off until that which is "too big to fail" is us...and we do.   Once you have much talk about what's best for the collective (America, as a whole) it's just a matter of time till the individual is "the nail pounded down".   Even in a society like Japan there were individuals that stood up and bucked the status quo.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 9:19:59 AM EDT
You're not a conservative unless Janet Napolitano thinks you're a right-wing extremist.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 9:21:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Uni-Vibe:
Most people think if you're like Reagan, you're a Conservative.

Was Reagan a Conservative?



1.  Conservatives are strong on defense of America;  liberals are dovish peaceniks.

But after Hizbullah bombed the Embassy and Marine barracks in Lebanon, Reagan cut and ran, ordering all US troops out. (He quickly invaded Grenada, a nation which to all appearances had nothing to do with Muslim terrorists.)

2.  Conservatives advocate family values;  liberals are anti-marriage, free-love hippies.

But Reagan was married and divorced in violation of Matt. 3;  also Nancy delivered a full term baby 7.5 months after she and Ron were married.  Ron also had children he was estranged from.

3.  Conservatives are pro gun;  liberals are gun restrictors.

But in 1987 Reagan ordered BATF not to license any more NFA full auto guns.

4.  Conservatives are anti-Communist;  liberals are fellow-travellers.

In 1979, The Evil USSR Empire invaded Afghanistan.  Democrat named Jimmy Carter cut off all grain and tech sales to the USSR.  One of Reagan’s first acts in office was to open up the tap to the Russkies.

5.  Conservatives manage the people’s money;  liberals are tax-borrow-and spend-aholics.

But Reagan’s defecits were bigger than all his predecessor’s put together, Washington through Carter.  He was the first of the Big Deficit presidents.

6.  Conservatives are for a strong American economy;  liberals don’t know what that means.

When Reagan was elected, America was the world’s largest creditor nation.
When Reagan left office, America was the world’s largest debtor nation.

7.  Conservatives are churchgoers;  liberals are not.

But the only time Reagan attended was during his two campaigns.  After each election, he back-slid, citing security concerns (which didn’t bother Carter, Clinton or the two Bushes).

8.  Conservatives defend American borders;  liberals are pro-wetback.

But Reagan gave amnesty to three million illegals;  now we have 13 million to contend with.

9.  Conservatives don’t practice sorcery;  liberals are new-age weirdos.

But the Reagans had a Kalifornia sooth-sayer advise them on setting the White House calendar.

10.  Conservatives respect the Constitution;  liberals do what they want.

But Reagan sold arms to our fanatical terrorist enemies in Iran to fund an illegal terrorist war in Central America.

11.  Conservatives cut taxes;  liberals raise taxes.

But Reagan raised taxes $168 billion, mostly on the workers via the Social Security tax increase.



Reagan was a liberal.

That list is full of doublespeak and half truths.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 9:30:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Uni-Vibe:
Most people think if you're like Reagan, you're a Conservative.

Was Reagan a Conservative?



1.  Conservatives are strong on defense of America;  liberals are dovish peaceniks.

But after Hizbullah bombed the Embassy and Marine barracks in Lebanon, Reagan cut and ran, ordering all US troops out. (He quickly invaded Grenada, a nation which to all appearances had nothing to do with Muslim terrorists.)

2.  Conservatives advocate family values;  liberals are anti-marriage, free-love hippies.

But Reagan was married and divorced in violation of Matt. 3;  also Nancy delivered a full term baby 7.5 months after she and Ron were married.  Ron also had children he was estranged from.

3.  Conservatives are pro gun;  liberals are gun restrictors.

But in 1987 Reagan ordered BATF not to license any more NFA full auto guns.

4.  Conservatives are anti-Communist;  liberals are fellow-travellers.

In 1979, The Evil USSR Empire invaded Afghanistan.  Democrat named Jimmy Carter cut off all grain and tech sales to the USSR.  One of Reagan’s first acts in office was to open up the tap to the Russkies.

5.  Conservatives manage the people’s money;  liberals are tax-borrow-and spend-aholics.

But Reagan’s defecits were bigger than all his predecessor’s put together, Washington through Carter.  He was the first of the Big Deficit presidents.

6.  Conservatives are for a strong American economy;  liberals don’t know what that means.

When Reagan was elected, America was the world’s largest creditor nation.
When Reagan left office, America was the world’s largest debtor nation.

7.  Conservatives are churchgoers;  liberals are not.

But the only time Reagan attended was during his two campaigns.  After each election, he back-slid, citing security concerns (which didn’t bother Carter, Clinton or the two Bushes).

8.  Conservatives defend American borders;  liberals are pro-wetback.

But Reagan gave amnesty to three million illegals;  now we have 13 million to contend with.

9.  Conservatives don’t practice sorcery;  liberals are new-age weirdos.

But the Reagans had a Kalifornia sooth-sayer advise them on setting the White House calendar.

10.  Conservatives respect the Constitution;  liberals do what they want.

But Reagan sold arms to our fanatical terrorist enemies in Iran to fund an illegal terrorist war in Central America.

11.  Conservatives cut taxes;  liberals raise taxes.

But Reagan raised taxes $168 billion, mostly on the workers via the Social Security tax increase.



Reagan was a liberal.


I prefer that you adress him as President Reagan or Mr Reagan He earned that honor !

I believe he cut the top tax rate from 70% to 30% but if you have other info Please post a link.
 He cut taxes but could not cut spending Thanks to our Democratic Brothers .

The rest of your list is Liberal propaganda !
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:01:02 AM EDT
He cut top income tax rates but BOOSTED social security rates––guess which class pays those––yep, the working class!
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:11:16 AM EDT
I weed out my potential enemies by their response to this question:

"Who should be supreme: the individual or society?"
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:19:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 2_of_5:
I weed out my potential enemies by their response to this question:

"Who should be supreme: the individual or society?"

I don't think that is valid.

Conservatives like government when it is used to control things they oppose in society(ie abortion, gay marriage, etc.)
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:21:14 AM EDT
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:26:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Uni-Vibe:
He cut top income tax rates but BOOSTED social security rates––guess which class pays those––yep, the working class!


Who collects SS ? Yep the working class.
.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:27:11 AM EDT



Statement of Principles from the American Conservative Union:

The following statement was adopted in December 1964.


• We believe that the Constitution of the United States is the best political charter yet created by men for governing themselves. It is our belief that the Constitution is designed to guarantee the free exercise of the inherent rights of the individual through strictly limiting the power of government.

We reaffirm our belief in the Declaration of Independence, and in particular the belief that our inherent rights are endowed by the Creator. We further believe that our liberties can remain secure only if government is so limited that it cannot infringe upon those rights.
 
• We believe that capitalism is the only economic system of our time that is compatible with political liberty. It has not only brought a higher standard of living to a greater number of people than any other economic system in the history of mankind; more important, it has been a decisive instrument in preserving freedom through maintaining private control of economic power and thus limiting the power of government.
 
• We believe that collectivism and capitalism are incompatible, and that when government competes with capitalism, it jeopardizes the natural economic growth of our society and the well-being and freedom of the citizenry.
 
• We believe that it is the responsibility of the individual citizen, whenever his inherent rights are threatened from within or without, to join together with other individuals to protect these rights, or, when they have been temporarily lost, to regain them.
 
• We believe that any responsible conservative organization must conduct itself within the framework of the Constitution; in pursuance of this belief we refuse to countenance any actions which conflict in any way with the traditions of the American political system.
 
• The American Conservative Union is created to realize these ends through the cooperation in responsible political action, of all Americans who cherish the principles upon which the Republic was founded.
 
• The American Conservative Union will welcome all Americans who are prepared to fight for the realization and preservation of these principles through political action at the local, state and national level.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:27:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:29:31 AM EDT
Who let George Soros in here?  



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:30:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By nvhunter:
If you believe in the Constitution of the United States of America  you are a Conservative.
http://www.rhodesstate.edu/images/finaid/us_constitution.jpg


Not so. I am libveral and still believe in the constitution.

Your picture, however, is the Declaration of Independence.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:32:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2009 11:35:38 AM EDT by jarlragnar]
A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged.

ETA: LOOKY MY POST COUNT!!
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:34:42 AM EDT
I would have to say that the basis of conservatism is having us as a society decide what is right and wrong, but having a very limited government based on what society's expectations are, instead of having a larger government forming our society.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:36:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, thats not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing it.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 11:56:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, that's not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing i
t.


the interesting thing is we didn't have religion in the government until the 50's or 60's, "under god" wasn't originally in the pledge of allegiance, most the founding fathers when they created this great nation weren't a part of organized religions and practiced on their own, religion has been used in history to keep people down, but so was forced atheism. The founding fathers used religion to put down in witting that God or your god/nature/life gives you rights that cannot and should not be taken from you. While the constitution was created on religious ideas, it was set up so well that it would function in a world where religion doesn't matter, it's only when the system is tweaked and altered it becomes a problem. My point is we can have a limited, well functioning government that works without religion, but as a society, we need to decide on what is morally right or wrong to better shape our selves. This is where religion comes in, we shouldn't let the religion tell us how our government should run, but only tell us how to live our lives.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 12:01:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By Uni-Vibe:
Most people think if you're like Reagan, you're a Conservative.

Was Reagan a Conservative?



1.  Conservatives are strong on defense of America;  liberals are dovish peaceniks.

But after Hizbullah bombed the Embassy and Marine barracks in Lebanon, Reagan cut and ran, ordering all US troops out. (He quickly invaded Grenada, a nation which to all appearances had nothing to do with Muslim terrorists.)

2.  Conservatives advocate family values;  liberals are anti-marriage, free-love hippies.

But Reagan was married and divorced in violation of Matt. 3;  also Nancy delivered a full term baby 7.5 months after she and Ron were married.  Ron also had children he was estranged from.

3.  Conservatives are pro gun;  liberals are gun restrictors.

But in 1987 Reagan ordered BATF not to license any more NFA full auto guns.

4.  Conservatives are anti-Communist;  liberals are fellow-travellers.

In 1979, The Evil USSR Empire invaded Afghanistan.  Democrat named Jimmy Carter cut off all grain and tech sales to the USSR.  One of Reagan’s first acts in office was to open up the tap to the Russkies.

5.  Conservatives manage the people’s money;  liberals are tax-borrow-and spend-aholics.

But Reagan’s defecits were bigger than all his predecessor’s put together, Washington through Carter.  He was the first of the Big Deficit presidents.

6.  Conservatives are for a strong American economy;  liberals don’t know what that means.

When Reagan was elected, America was the world’s largest creditor nation.
When Reagan left office, America was the world’s largest debtor nation.

7.  Conservatives are churchgoers;  liberals are not.

But the only time Reagan attended was during his two campaigns.  After each election, he back-slid, citing security concerns (which didn’t bother Carter, Clinton or the two Bushes).

8.  Conservatives defend American borders;  liberals are pro-wetback.

But Reagan gave amnesty to three million illegals;  now we have 13 million to contend with.

9.  Conservatives don’t practice sorcery;  liberals are new-age weirdos.

But the Reagans had a Kalifornia sooth-sayer advise them on setting the White House calendar.

10.  Conservatives respect the Constitution;  liberals do what they want.

But Reagan sold arms to our fanatical terrorist enemies in Iran to fund an illegal terrorist war in Central America.

11.  Conservatives cut taxes;  liberals raise taxes.

But Reagan raised taxes $168 billion, mostly on the workers via the Social Security tax increase.



Reagan was a liberal.

That list is full of doublespeak and half truths.



He knows that it is yet I have seen him post it before in other threads about President Reagan.  
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 12:19:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By kcpwnsgman:
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, that's not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing i
t.


the interesting thing is we didn't have religion in the government until the 50's or 60's, "under god" wasn't originally in the pledge of allegiance, most the founding fathers when they created this great nation weren't a part of organized religions and practiced on their own, religion has been used in history to keep people down, but so was forced atheism. The founding fathers used religion to put down in witting that God or your god/nature/life gives you rights that cannot and should not be taken from you. While the constitution was created on religious ideas, it was set up so well that it would function in a world where religion doesn't matter, it's only when the system is tweaked and altered it becomes a problem. My point is we can have a limited, well functioning government that works without religion, but as a society, we need to decide on what is morally right or wrong to better shape our selves. This is where religion comes in, we shouldn't let the religion tell us how our government should run, but only tell us how to live our lives.



Hoseshit here ! you must be fresh out of college .If not you are reading  bullshit revisionist history written by Asshole liberals .Sorry about the the language but your post stinks like shit !

Link Posted: 5/2/2009 12:22:55 PM EDT
Originally By Mark Levin:

"I realized that conservatism was the philosophy that best suited me, with its emphasis on individual liberty, personal responsibility, and merit."
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 12:27:34 PM EDT
Self determination is freedom.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 12:29:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2009 12:33:13 PM EDT by PUBBOY]
Originally Posted By silverstate55:
Originally Posted By PUBBOY:
Originally Posted By silverstate55:
That it is vital to maintain a strong & capable military, in order to properly defend our country & keep her citizens safe. The Soviets did this. Would they be considered Conservative?

That terrorism is an act of WAR, and as such deserves a military response, not a law enforcement response. Chinese and Russians do this. Are they conservative?

That all citizens deserve equal protection under the law; no group of people, regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, religious beliefs (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, or any other real or perceived differences, do not deserve nor shall receive any more protections under the law than the Constitution already affords to ALL citizens.

That all people are created equal, and shall be treated as equals; there is no such thing as "separate but equal."



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile







Yeah sure, if you say so.  I was just adding to the list, I didn't realize that I needed to give a dissertation and list every single point.

You're right, we should leave our national defense to the UN; they have our best interests in mind & really should start putting our tax dollars to better use.

And since treating terrorism as a military problem after 9/11 has been such a disaster for us, we should go back to the Clinton Doctrine of the 90s that DID work so well.  My bad.



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


LOL!

Im not saying let the UN protect us or treat terrorists like 'felons', it's just that having a strong military isn't a distinctly 'conservative' idea.

Thank you for your service.





Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:52:10 AM EDT
I think FREEDOM needs to be reemphasized in relationship to what it means to be a conservative.

It's interesting to me, that in my lifetime, people tend to talk about "the land of the free" a whole lot less than when I was younger.

This is totally related to how much government is now involved in everything.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 8:09:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, thats not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing it.


This. Conservative =/= religion however many think it does

Link Posted: 5/3/2009 8:11:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kcpwnsgman:
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, that's not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing i
t.


the interesting thing is we didn't have religion in the government until the 50's or 60's, "under god" wasn't originally in the pledge of allegiance, most the founding fathers when they created this great nation weren't a part of organized religions and practiced on their own, religion has been used in history to keep people down, but so was forced atheism. The founding fathers used religion to put down in witting that God or your god/nature/life gives you rights that cannot and should not be taken from you. While the constitution was created on religious ideas, it was set up so well that it would function in a world where religion doesn't matter, it's only when the system is tweaked and altered it becomes a problem. My point is we can have a limited, well functioning government that works without religion, but as a society, we need to decide on what is morally right or wrong to better shape our selves. This is where religion comes in, we shouldn't let the religion tell us how our government should run, but only tell us how to live our lives.


Religions roll is to shape an individual's view of right and wrong, not the government's
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 8:55:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Magurgle:
Originally Posted By kcpwnsgman:
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, that's not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing i
t.


the interesting thing is we didn't have religion in the government until the 50's or 60's, "under god" wasn't originally in the pledge of allegiance, most the founding fathers when they created this great nation weren't a part of organized religions and practiced on their own, religion has been used in history to keep people down, but so was forced atheism. The founding fathers used religion to put down in witting that God or your god/nature/life gives you rights that cannot and should not be taken from you. While the constitution was created on religious ideas, it was set up so well that it would function in a world where religion doesn't matter, it's only when the system is tweaked and altered it becomes a problem. My point is we can have a limited, well functioning government that works without religion, but as a society, we need to decide on what is morally right or wrong to better shape our selves. This is where religion comes in, we shouldn't let the religion tell us how our government should run, but only tell us how to live our lives.


Religions roll is to shape an individual's view of right and wrong, not the government's


I disagree, all governments requires a moral order, a social contract if you will.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:13:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By clement:
Originally Posted By Magurgle:
Originally Posted By kcpwnsgman:
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, that's not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing i
t.


the interesting thing is we didn't have religion in the government until the 50's or 60's, "under god" wasn't originally in the pledge of allegiance, most the founding fathers when they created this great nation weren't a part of organized religions and practiced on their own, religion has been used in history to keep people down, but so was forced atheism. The founding fathers used religion to put down in witting that God or your god/nature/life gives you rights that cannot and should not be taken from you. While the constitution was created on religious ideas, it was set up so well that it would function in a world where religion doesn't matter, it's only when the system is tweaked and altered it becomes a problem. My point is we can have a limited, well functioning government that works without religion, but as a society, we need to decide on what is morally right or wrong to better shape our selves. This is where religion comes in, we shouldn't let the religion tell us how our government should run, but only tell us how to live our lives.


Religions roll is to shape an individual's view of right and wrong, not the government's


I disagree, all governments requires a moral order, a social contract if you will.


Ok then what religion should we pick? Satanism, Wicca, Mormon, Islam, Pastafarian, the 12 Gods of Kobol, or one of the countless others? Oh wait there is that whole shall make not establishment of religion thing to get around.

Catering to the religious right is a cancer that conservatives need to cut out and they need to do it now.


Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:16:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2009 9:20:45 AM EDT by clement]
Originally Posted By Magurgle:
Originally Posted By clement:
Originally Posted By Magurgle:
Originally Posted By kcpwnsgman:
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, that's not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing i
t.


the interesting thing is we didn't have religion in the government until the 50's or 60's, "under god" wasn't originally in the pledge of allegiance, most the founding fathers when they created this great nation weren't a part of organized religions and practiced on their own, religion has been used in history to keep people down, but so was forced atheism. The founding fathers used religion to put down in witting that God or your god/nature/life gives you rights that cannot and should not be taken from you. While the constitution was created on religious ideas, it was set up so well that it would function in a world where religion doesn't matter, it's only when the system is tweaked and altered it becomes a problem. My point is we can have a limited, well functioning government that works without religion, but as a society, we need to decide on what is morally right or wrong to better shape our selves. This is where religion comes in, we shouldn't let the religion tell us how our government should run, but only tell us how to live our lives.


Religions roll is to shape an individual's view of right and wrong, not the government's


I disagree, all governments requires a moral order, a social contract if you will.


Ok then what religion should we pick? Satanism, Wicca, Mormon, Islam, Pastafarian, the 12 Gods of Kobol, or one of the countless others? Oh wait there is that whole shall make not establishment of religion thing to get around.

Catering to the religious right is a cancer that conservatives need to cut out and they need to do it now.




Who says morals have anything to do with religion? Are you saying agnostic and atheists have no morals? Have you ever noticed that many religions share many of the same morals (well except the crazy ones)?

If we remove ethics and morals from the equation, why have government at all? Enforcement of such things is why government came into existence in the first place.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:24:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By clement:
Originally Posted By Magurgle:
Originally Posted By clement:
Originally Posted By Magurgle:
Originally Posted By kcpwnsgman:
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, that's not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing i
t.


the interesting thing is we didn't have religion in the government until the 50's or 60's, "under god" wasn't originally in the pledge of allegiance, most the founding fathers when they created this great nation weren't a part of organized religions and practiced on their own, religion has been used in history to keep people down, but so was forced atheism. The founding fathers used religion to put down in witting that God or your god/nature/life gives you rights that cannot and should not be taken from you. While the constitution was created on religious ideas, it was set up so well that it would function in a world where religion doesn't matter, it's only when the system is tweaked and altered it becomes a problem. My point is we can have a limited, well functioning government that works without religion, but as a society, we need to decide on what is morally right or wrong to better shape our selves. This is where religion comes in, we shouldn't let the religion tell us how our government should run, but only tell us how to live our lives.


Religions roll is to shape an individual's view of right and wrong, not the government's


I disagree, all governments requires a moral order, a social contract if you will.


Ok then what religion should we pick? Satanism, Wicca, Mormon, Islam, Pastafarian, the 12 Gods of Kobol, or one of the countless others? Oh wait there is that whole shall make not establishment of religion thing to get around.

Catering to the religious right is a cancer that conservatives need to cut out and they need to do it now.




Who says morals have anything to do with religion? Are you saying agnostic and atheists have no morals?

If we remove ethics and morals from the equation, why have government at all?


You did

There are several rolls for government that have NOTHING to do with a moral code.

WTFWhere did I say anything even remotely close to what you said there
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:27:39 AM EDT
A conservative is a individual who makes choices based on logic not feelings.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:28:20 AM EDT
- America = everything in English.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:36:52 AM EDT
It's all spelled out in plain English here:

Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:42:54 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Tony7189:


A conservative is a individual who makes choices based on logic not feelings.


As much as I would like to believe this, I'm not sure this is a particularly objective or accurate statement. I'm just saying.




It's hard to define, but in the context of American political culture, conservatives tend to prefer smaller government, with the exception of having a strong national defense.



 
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:46:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tony7189:
A conservative is a individual who makes choices based on logic not feelings.


Then that is, indeed, a rare breed.  Almost unheard of either on this site or in society at large.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 11:45:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Magurgle:
Originally Posted By clement:
Originally Posted By Magurgle:
Originally Posted By clement:
Originally Posted By Magurgle:
Originally Posted By kcpwnsgman:
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Turnkey:
They're an Endangered Species who's numbers have dwindled to an alarmingly small number


I don't agree i think the majority of U.S. citizens are conservative we are just leaderless at the moment!


Americans see the word "conservative" and think "Republican". They're just as fed up with the Republicans as the Democrats.

Not to mention the conservative stance on gays and abortion. I don't want to debate whether abortion or gay marriage/civil unions should be legal or not, that's not my point.

Americans are getting tired of religion in government. Frankly we are headed towards becoming or are already are a very secular country.

This is not intended to start another religion debate, but thats how I'm seeing i
t.


the interesting thing is we didn't have religion in the government until the 50's or 60's, "under god" wasn't originally in the pledge of allegiance, most the founding fathers when they created this great nation weren't a part of organized religions and practiced on their own, religion has been used in history to keep people down, but so was forced atheism. The founding fathers used religion to put down in witting that God or your god/nature/life gives you rights that cannot and should not be taken from you. While the constitution was created on religious ideas, it was set up so well that it would function in a world where religion doesn't matter, it's only when the system is tweaked and altered it becomes a problem. My point is we can have a limited, well functioning government that works without religion, but as a society, we need to decide on what is morally right or wrong to better shape our selves. This is where religion comes in, we shouldn't let the religion tell us how our government should run, but only tell us how to live our lives.


Religions roll is to shape an individual's view of right and wrong, not the government's


I disagree, all governments requires a moral order, a social contract if you will.


Ok then what religion should we pick? Satanism, Wicca, Mormon, Islam, Pastafarian, the 12 Gods of Kobol, or one of the countless others? Oh wait there is that whole shall make not establishment of religion thing to get around.

Catering to the religious right is a cancer that conservatives need to cut out and they need to do it now.




Who says morals have anything to do with religion? Are you saying agnostic and atheists have no morals?

If we remove ethics and morals from the equation, why have government at all?


You did

There are several rolls for government that have NOTHING to do with a moral code.

WTFWhere did I say anything even remotely close to what you said there


No you claimed that shaping morality was the sole role of religion not government.

I disagreed., you went on to ask which religion should government follow, I simply asked that if one doesn't follow any religion really, do they have no morals?

Government clearly has a role in shaping morals, all governments do, both free ones and tyrannical ones. That is what a moral order is all about, respect for the rule of law. You can start on what are considered moral truths which tend to have strict punishments associated with them like civil (say contract law) and criminal law (murder, rape, etc).

This does not require 100% enforcement of all things which are considered moral by some group but not of others. In these gray areas government has the ability to create laws which encourage a moral life should the people wish to have this as long as it doesn't violate natural human rights (creating a moral paradox in itself). This is what that whole 'provide for the general welfare' clause in the constitution comes from. This moral governance should be more of a layered approach as there are different levels of morality. The inner layers being the hard moral truths having the strictest and most controlled while the outer layers like say some victimless crimes being more lax. The key to keeping a free society is to properly place which 'layer' such moral violations belong under.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 12:08:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2009 12:11:34 PM EDT by Fatbert]


"A gram of experience is worth a ton of theory."

I think that quote from Lord Salisbury sums things up nicely. Of course he also said some other rather sensible things too.

"There is no danger which we have to contend with which is so serious as an exaggeration of the power, the useful power, of the interference of the State."

"No lesson seems to be so deeply inculcated by the experience of life as that you should never trust experts. If you believe doctors, nothing is wholesome: if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent: if you believe the soldiers, nothing is safe."

"...by a free country I mean a country where people are allowed, so long as they do not hurt their neighbours, to do as they like. I do not mean a country where six men may make five men do exactly as they like. That is not my notion of freedom."

"If I were asked to define Conservative policy, I should say that it was the upholding of confidence."

There's also a wonderful quote from Disraeli:

"The more extensive a man's knowledge of what has been done, the greater will be his power of knowing what to do."
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