User Panel
Posted: 9/28/2004 12:18:06 PM EDT
Happened in Ohio I think? Amish teens and young adults were throwing ears of corn at passing cars and people. Guy blasted one of them with a shotgun. Anyone know if he took a plead bargain, or got convicted?
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i'll check around.
last i heard the amish kid's family (and the entire amish community) forgave the guy 100%...as is their way. the prosecutor was going to press charges, but there were some issues with the shooter's health. let me do a little digging. the mansfield or wooster papers should have something on the case. |
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MILLERSBURG (AP) – A man accused of fatally shooting a prankster who threw tomatoes from a cornfield was found guilty of misdemeanor negligent homicide Friday night and sentenced to time served.
Marion Weaver, 58, of Benton, had been charged with murder, which could have resulted in a sentence of 18 years to life in prison. The jury decided on the lesser charge after 4 1/2 hours of deliberations. Weaver, who has been jailed since September, was sentenced to time served by Holmes County Common Pleas Judge Thomas White and given the maximum $1,000 fine. The charge carried a maximum six-month sentence. “I’m as happy as I could be under the circumstances,” defense attorney John Johnson Jr. said. “You have to remember someone died. He (Weaver) is responsible for that and he’s aware of it, but he’s not a murderer.” Steven L. Keim, 23, of Apple Creek, was shot and killed on Sept. 1. He was in a group of people throwing tomatoes at passing vehicles from a cornfield, an annual prank in the Holmes-Wayne County area about 80 miles south of Cleveland that has the largest Amish settlement in the world. Angry that his car was hit, Weaver came back to the cornfield with a shotgun. He said he had aimed into the air when he fired. “I was frustrated. I lost it,” Weaver testified earlier Friday, the fourth day of his trial. He said when he learned the next day that Keim had been fatally shot, “I was devastated. I had a heart attack.” Assistant Holmes County Prosecutor Steve Knowling told jurors during closing arguments that Keim’s death was no accident. He said Keim was struck by more than 100 pellets. “If he shot the shotgun above the cornfield, into the air, he wouldn’t be here. Steven Keim wouldn’t be dead,” Knowling told jurors. Knowling said he believes there was evidence to support the murder charge. “We put on the best case we can,” he said. Weaver had been a friend of Keim and his family, former Amish who had converted to the less-restrictive Mennonite faith – and had often gone fishing and trap shooting with the young man and his father. Eight teens and three men in their early 20s pleaded guilty to vehicular vandalism in the prank. The juveniles were sentenced to serve a weekend in juvenile detention and fined $250; the adults were sentenced to four days in jail and fined $500. www.timesreporter.com/left.php?external=repsearch_detail.php&ID=27526 |
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Over 100 pellets? I’m kinda naïve on shotguns, but wouldn’t he have to reload once or twice to get that much buckshot into the kid and make sure all of the buckshot hit him? |
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For shooting someone who was messing with people -- could have caused an accident and personal injury -- hell yes. I also advocate shooting and killing those that throw stuff off of bridges onto cars. Don't want shot - don't do it. Apparently 12 people in the jury felt the same way. |
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From the article -
"Assistant Holmes County Prosecutor Steve Knowling told jurors during closing arguments that Keim’s death was no accident. He said Keim was struck by more than 100 pellets. "'If he shot the shotgun above the cornfield, into the air, he wouldn’t be here. Steven Keim wouldn’t be dead, Knowling told jurors." Yep. A misdemeanor conviction and time served! Lovely. Eric The(Stunned)Hun |
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Glad to see they didnt give the vandals a pass. It was after all their "prank" that initiated the nights events. |
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Birdshot. |
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Where'd you get that it was buckshot? Maybe I skimmed it too fast and missed it? CR |
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The people who were doing this were
CLASS A jerks. Amish adults and older -- almost adults Lets see if they think it is fun to mess like this again ................... I feel it is time for a HERO rifle fund raiser ... |
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You can't see past three rows of corn, they were in a corn field |
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ever been in a corn field at night? |
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Not since that great tomato-throwing party. |
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I assumed it was buckshot. |
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And for the record the Amish dude who was killed was 23 I seem to recall -- in any event he was over 21 for sure |
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Sure. 6 months for killing a kid tossing tomatoes....yeah, that's about right. |
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6-Months for killing a grown man who was committing serial vandalism. |
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Just shows how state laws differ. Here in Texas, you can only kill a person if you "are in fear of your life", or someone else's. Killing tomato throwers is a little past reason in Texas. |
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a lot of you are missing the point.
1. the attack was provoked. 2. the shooter was a family friend...a close family friend that had take the keim lad hunting and fishing. 3. no evidence of attempt to deliberately cause death (fired high). 4. the family forgave the shooter. that is their way. please respect it. the jury and court did. 5. the shooter was very remorseful, has health issues (big dollars to the us ohio taxpayers if we warehouse him). this shooting was a local tragedy that no amount of jail time could put right or be just punishment for. the amish and mennonites can forgive. apparantly some here prefer more blood. |
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Post from AR15fan:
Yeah. I 'spect that's one way of looking at it. But not a very sensible one. I cannot imagine anyone leveling a shotgun at targets that he could not possibly identify and letting go with a shot....and still be defended by an LEO. There must be something more to this story than meets the eye. Eric The(Don'tMessWithTexasGunLaws)Hun |
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I believe its illegal to shoot petty vandals in any state. Some states may allow deadly force if its felony vandalism at night time though. I would support allowing deadly force for petty vandalism. Its a crime that has no justifiable excuse. destroying someone elses property for no reason at all. |
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Some of these people who have responded don't know what the heck it is all about
they have never been on a county road ---- no lights most are graveled --- speed limits are 55 MPH -- ditches can be 3-6 feet deep --- to have a object, tomato, whatever hit your vehicle as your going down the road can cause your vehicle to be totaled -- and for you to be messed up bad or killed. If they think this is a harmless prank -- they know not what they speak about. Oh and they were shooting paint ball guns at folks also. So for just a minute imagine driving down a dark road at night, 55 MPH and to have a barrage of shit hit your vehicle out of no where -- ears of corn, tomato's and paint ball fire. ................. It has happened to me, you swerve, brake, and if lucky keep it on the road. |
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I cannot imagine anyone leveling a shotgun at targets that he could not possibly identify and letting go with a shot....
this happens all the time, eric. when i was a lad in the boy scouts, i was hit by a long-distance blast of pellets by an old woman that could not have possibly identified her targets. fortunately, other than welts and light skin penetratration, no harm no foul. perhaps ohio is more like texas than texas, itself? and still be defended by an LEO. i think you legal types call it 'mitagating circumstances'? There must be something more to this story than meets the eye. not every death is murder in cold blood and not every murder deserves a lynching. the family forgave the man. i think you would call that a "christian act"...and obviously a deserved one in this case. the jurors and judge saw it likewise. enough blood was spilled for everyone involved. |
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Six months for a life? That seems pretty nutty.
I'm sorry but people should not absent extreme circumstances "be the judge in their own case." People are biased, angry, impulsive, etc. That's why we have LEO and Courts etc. And people should not start shooting guns unless they're in fear of their life. Life is important. That's why I defend my own; I don't think a (nonpermanent) tomato stain on my car is worth a knife, gun or anything. Call the cops if you're pissed. Don't go around shooting people. That's completley unreasonably and shows someone to be totally irresponsible. The family forgave him. Good for them. The law is about the community's standards, I remind you. As for his health problems, I guess he'll have to die in prison (if I were on the jury). And we all know he had to aim to hit the kid this much with birdshot. What a psycho. |
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I seriously doubt that.
Yes, indeed. A 12 oz tomato smashing into a 2,000 pound vehicle is quite provocative!
If friends can't shoot friends what's this world coming to, anyway?
And yet there were more than 100 pellets in the lad's corpse. Strange trajectory that shotshell made!
Sorry, but that's why it is the State of Ohio vs. the Defendant, not The Heim Family vs. the Defendant. If forgiveness by the victim's family makes any difference at law, we then make a mockery of the law. The more depraved the victim's family, the less likely for them to forgive, the greater the punishment for the wrongdoer? What nonsense is that?
Jeepers, why did you save that for last? That makes all the difference in the world! If that fellow could have put his shotgun back in the trunk of his car and driven away unidentified, I would bet he wouldn't be near as remorseful as he is NOW! Facing criminal prosecution makes for a lot of remorse!
When does jail time ever put a crime 'right'?
Hooray for them! That's quite charitable and noble of them, indeed. But the State of Ohio should not be swayed by the religious convictions of the victim's next-of-kin
Does the State of Ohio execute murderers, or have they abolished the death penalty? The defendant was never charged with a crime that he could have received the death sentence for, nor should he have been. But that certainly doesn't mean that what occurred in the Courtroom was correct, at all. Eric The(Reasonable,AsAlways)Hun |
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cyanide, you are correct.
targets that night included rotten lettuce heads, tomatos, paintballs and...dried ears of corn. do any of you know the potential kinetic energy carried in the equation of: .5kg ear corn/husked * 45mph velocity of vehicle =??? energy? weaver, the shooter, had been the victim of this prank on more than one occassion that fall and also in previous years. the deputies, despite serving a generally tranquil holmes county, can't road patrol for the dozens and dozens of 'deadly' amish tomato tossing gangs (you have the crips and bloods. we have the yoders and the herschbergers). everyone involved screwed up. the vandals started the dance and the buckshot ended it. was anyone 'right' in what they did? no. but, things got worked out on their own...by the local folks involved. that's justices at its' most fair and equitable for all concerned. |
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Property is important. I work hard, spending time away from my family and friends to buy my property. Essentially trading hours, weeks, years of my life for those items of personal property. Someone who destroys my property is robbing me of that time, my "life" with my family. |
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Felony vandalism depending on where it hits and the value of the car. Plus the risk of the resulting traffic collision. |
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Well then call the cops or sue them dude. It's not worth killing someone over. There has to be some proportionality. I doubt this guy was in any frame of mind to judge these kids fairly.
How does a tomato destory anything, btw? It takes 2 seconds to hose it down. |
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You sound like a tomato tosser yourself ................. worried a bit are we ??? |
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I got lit up with birdshot from across a pasture as a teen, like you said, the wounds were no more than some welts and a couple of scratches, no harm no foul, plus I learned a huge lesson. I think firing a load of birdshot as a warning is fairly common practice in truly rural areas. |
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Hardly. But I'm worried a law enforcement officer such as yourself entrusted by society to use violence not permitted to ordinary citizens has such a cavalier regard for human life. JBT indeed. |
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I have an opinion you have yours until I sit on a jury - I obey all laws ----------- as we all should I may have opinions that they (certain laws) aren't right.............. as is my right. EDIT: you TX guys doesn't TX have a law that says you can shoot a person on your property at night stealing from you -- say hub caps ??? |
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You are really not being serious, are you? I mean, there is such a thing as proportionality, you know. So, you are quite pleased at the outcome of this little episode? I mean, except for the unfortunate death of a 23 year old tomato throwing 'repeat' felon, that is. Right? That's just sick, if you are being serious. Really. Eric The(Stunned)Hun |
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"Cyanide" you have an opinion, but it's a wrong-headed, unreasonable, and indefensible one far outside the mainstream. It reflects a cock-eyed value scheme that is utterly indifferent to KILLING someone--someone who will never get to grow older, have a family, etc.--because of an extremely minor vandalism incident. If you think that's A-OK, I repeat my concern that someone with such a sociopathic view of things probably should not be an LEO.
As for TX law, it's technically possible to use deadly force to prevent "criminal mischief in the nightime" perhaps on the theory that it's more reasonable to be in fear of one's life in such circumstances. But even then one is well advised not to use deadly force unless absolutely necessary. The whole point of self-defense is not to kill or to run around like a vigilante; it's that on balance it's better to have people defend themselves rather than be killed when they're put in that position through no fault of their own. It doesn't mean that individual people, looking out for themselves, and not being fair or objective, should shoot people whenever they're pissed off, annoyed, or even the victims of vandalism. |
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A 12 oz tomato smashing into a 2,000 pound vehicle is quite provocative!
yes. and the corn and lettuce can be more so. If friends can't shoot friends what's this world coming to, anyway? a sorry place where folks want a nanny-state calling the shots for them, evidently. And yet there were more than 100 pellets in the lad's corpse. Strange trajectory that shotshell made! can you tell me how many pellets are in a no. 7 , 3" shotshell? can you tell me the choke? a magazine capacity? don't have a clue, do you? nor do you know the total number of rounds shot. nor do you know the range at which the keim lad was struck. lastly, you do not know the inclination of the field in relation to the road. but...feel free to play junior ballistics expert on the web. Sorry, but that's why it is the State of Ohio vs. the Defendant, not The Heim Family vs. the Defendant. sorry. they didn't need no stinkin' nanny state telling them 'what' justice was. they were smart enough to do that on their own. their friends, neighbors and peers agreed. as did the judge. but, i take it you know more than they? If forgiveness by the victim's family makes any difference at law, we then make a mockery of the law. now, there's a line of bullshit only a lawyer could spout. does "the law" tell the people what is just...or...do the people detrmine what justice is? evidently, the families involved, the jury, the judge and myself are in complete disagreement with your opinion. but, don't let us dismount you from your high legal horse. The more depraved the victim's family, the less likely for them to forgive, the greater the punishment for the wrongdoer? that's the way it works in many cases. the judge listens to victim statements and sentences, within the guidelines, accordingly. but, you knew that...didn't you? What nonsense is that? the kind of nonsense you often bring up. Jeepers, why did you save that for last? because it is of the least significance. should i have listed it first? if so, i'll try to do that just for you, next time. That makes all the difference in the world! it does bear on the judgement. feel free to live in denial, though. If that fellow could have put his shotgun back in the trunk of his car and driven away unidentified, I would bet he wouldn't be near as remorseful as he is NOW! no one would argue against that statement. Facing criminal prosecution makes for a lot of remorse! so does killing a friend, i suppose. Hooray for them! and for you? a cry of 'foul!' from the sidelines? That's quite charitable and noble of them, indeed. yes. very christlike. most of the amish and mennonites i know are pleasure to have as neighbors. et tu? But the State of Ohio should not be swayed by the religious convictions of the victim's next-of-kin well, that's the way it works. i would have guessed that you, being immersed in the legal system, would at least have a clue about this. my error, obviously, in making that assumption. allow me to clear up the mystical workings of the criminal justice sytem for you... the county prosecutor files charges after the evidence is collected. the grand jury indicts based on that evidence. the trial is held, hearing all that evidence. a jury renders a verdict based upon that evidece. a judge sentences based upon the charges returned within the legal framework for sentencing. there. a little more clear, now? Does the State of Ohio execute murderers, or have they abolished the death penalty? depends on the case. it's all about that there 'evidence' stuff and those 'circumstances' of the case. one size does not fit all. but, you knew that, too...didn't you? The defendant was never charged with a crime that he could have received the death sentence for, nor should he have been. agreed. But that certainly doesn't mean that what occurred in the Courtroom was correct, at all. it was correct to all concerned. your opinion of justice in holmes county carries about as much weight as mine would in texas...zero. |
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A tomato hitting a car going 55MPH will break the windshield or dent any portion of the body it hits. So will water ballons and other soft thrown objects. |
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I believe it is a fair outcome for all involved. I am not saddened at all by the death of a vandal. I cannot imagine why anyone beyond his immediate family would be. |
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6 months is a pretty light sentence in my opinion. It is quite likely that the shooter was only trying to scare them off. It was certainly bad judgement to fire into the field, and I feel that regardless of his intentions, he should have recieved a stiffer sentence.
What were these Amish kids thinking? Surely even the Amish aren't sheltered enough to think that nobody would get made about them vandalizing cars. I can understand 12 and 13 year-old kids doing this, but a 23 year-old man? I find it amazing that this is the first time they were shot at. Down here, a 23 year-old inbred tossing an ear of corn at a car is enough to cause half the population to start shooting. |
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If he had not learned personal responsibility and respect for other peoples property by the age of 23, old enough to have completed college or served 4 years in the military, he was unlikely to ever be a productive member of society. |
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Maybe when you come upon people like that AR15fan, you can just take them out and kill them for the rest of us. No need for paperwork or lawyers when those nasty Amish and minor vandals are involved. Becuase boy oh boy are they causing problems.
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...Why the hell would an AMISH MAN have a paintball gun? What, did he also have a few power saws and a CO2 tank in his shed? |
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A 12 oz tomato smashing into a 2,000 pound vehicle is quite provocative! A fist weighs, generally, about 2-3 lbs. So, I guess if that connects with a persons' face, they aren't justified in hitting back? And yet there were more than 100 pellets in the lad's corpse. Birdshot. If that fellow could have put his shotgun back in the trunk of his car and driven away unidentified, I would bet he wouldn't be near as remorseful as he is NOW! Quite possibly even more so. He was a man that got angry and, before he realized it, took the situation too far. Had he a second chance, I'd bet money that the man wouldn't kill this kid again. It could happen to any of us. God knows I've been angry enough to kill someone, but thankfully was not able to do so at the time (cooldown period, distance, reason). |
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I rest my case -- others feel as I do apparently Get use to it. |
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I got lit up with birdshot from across a pasture as a teen, like you said, the wounds were no more than some welts and a couple of scratches, no harm no foul, plus I learned a huge lesson. I think firing a load of birdshot as a warning is fairly common practice in truly rural areas.
birdshot...rocksalt...rice...and whatever dad left in it the last time he propped it behind the door. i learned a lesson, too (a scoutmaster sent a bunch of us kids over a fence to gather flat rocks for a fire pit lining)...don't trespass even if told to do so and damn! shot carries a long freaking way an still smarts! no one is saying the death of the keim youth was called for...for his acts of vadalism. but, it happened. as halloween approaches and the frost gets closer...the gardens in holmes county are giving up their last yield for the season. the ears of corn are drying on the stocks and paintball guns...er...markers are being readied for a another season of vandalism along ohio roadways. now, i drive a junk s10 that isn't worth $100. i drive pretty slowly (according to ar15com standards...anyways) and i'm usually prepared for deer, coons, possums, skunks and all manor of wildlife and stuff to cause me to brake/swerve. if eli dents my door or fender, i wouldn't care or be angry. other folks, driving nicer vehicles...driving faster that i am accustomed to...or subject to being freaked out by an instantaneous loss of forward vision (ever see a barrage of ear corn take out a windshield?) might not be so understanding. those of you calling for the sheriff's deputies to handle this might be shocked to learn that each county has thousands of miles of roads (from state routes and interstates to secondary roads to tertiary roads to county and townships roads)...thousands of kids out doing weird shit...and maybe two cars out on patrol at any given moment. the odds, frankly, are on the vandals' side by a disproportionate percentage. |
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You would be surprised --- they can not wear english clothes -- unless it is from Walmart and camo clothes for hunting ...... They can't have a phone in the house, but can have a phone booth in the front yard ??? A very selective religion -- I think it is all a tax dodge. |
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