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Posted: 6/17/2014 1:36:02 PM EDT
Or was it a lost cause from day one? Is this a personnel, training, and / or leadership issue?

Are there professional, disciplined, and experienced units within the ranks?
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:37:47 PM EDT
We should pull out of that sh$thole like we need to get out of Afghanistan...
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:38:02 PM EDT
It would have been better if we had advised the Maliki government to contract the French Foreign Legion to undertake the security of Iraq.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:39:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2014 1:46:34 PM EDT by beardog30]
Colonization and breeding out the extremist ME culture is the only way that place will ever change. That or genocide. Not that I'm advocating either.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:40:39 PM EDT
It was a lost cause from day 1.
The society over there is the strong devour the not as strong.
When there is no regard for the sanctity of human life, it is destined to be hell on earth.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:42:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By usjet:
It would have been better if we had advised the Maliki government to contract the French Foreign Legion to undertake the security of Iraq.
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Or how about starting our own force like that with American advisors and trainers? Haven't there been a ton of former military 3rd world nationals working security in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:43:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2014 1:47:21 PM EDT by Katana16j]
Originally Posted By Danj:

What could we have done to better prepare the Iraqi security forces for our withdrawal?
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Converted them to another religion...
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:45:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Katana16j:


Converted them to another religion...
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Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Originally Posted By Danj:
Or was it a lost cause from day one? Is this a personnel, training, and / or leadership issue?

Are there professional, disciplined, and experienced units within the ranks?


Converted them to another religion...

That would only incite the more violence and further their cause.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:45:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2014 1:48:38 PM EDT by ContrarianIndicator]
Surge needed to be about 5 times larger and permanent and we needed to spend a few trillion more.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:47:00 PM EDT
I recently heard it put a pretty good way
"We hard-wired ourselves into the hard drive. Without us, it (Iraq) doesn't work"

Frightening, disturbing thought.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:47:55 PM EDT
Gone in with a scorched earth mindset. Destroyed everything. Then occupy the fucker with a heavy hand.

It's what they know. What they've always known. What they will always know. Violence and force.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:47:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ContrarianIndicator:
Surge needed to be about 5 times larger and permanent and we needed to spend a few trillion more.
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LOL, wut?
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:55:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By LostX:
Gone in with a scorched earth mindset. Destroyed everything. Then occupy the fucker with a heavy hand.

It's what they know. What they've always known. What they will always know. Violence and force.
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Pretty much what Saddam did.

Rebel? He leveled their town and either executed all the males of fighting age or just gassed the whole town.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:55:54 PM EDT
When they asked us to leave and refused to sign an acceptable SOFA we should have told them to STFU. We should have done whatever the fuck we wanted to do.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:57:52 PM EDT
There is/was no solution to fundamentally transforming a nation's culture, political habits and social norms in 10 years. The *only* solution that is achievable in that time frame is genocide.

As far as I can tell, we spent a ton of money and thousands of lives to put off the civil war for a decade, and our only 'accomplishment' was to give the Shia a better chance to prevail in the coming fight.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 1:58:55 PM EDT
It was bound to happen when US forces left. Nature abhors a vacuum.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:04:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By beardog30:

Pretty much what Saddam did.

Rebel? He leveled their town and either executed all the males of fighting age or just gassed the whole town.
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By LostX:
Gone in with a scorched earth mindset. Destroyed everything. Then occupy the fucker with a heavy hand.

It's what they know. What they've always known. What they will always know. Violence and force.

Pretty much what Saddam did.

Rebel? He leveled their town and either executed all the males of fighting age or just gassed the whole town.


How you see that. How I see that. How a good number of people on Arfcom see that. But Dear Leader doesn't, is bewildering to me.

While the Middle East wasn't Utopia before the Arab Spring bullshit, it wasn't near the hot bed it is now. The devil you know and all that shit...
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:11:26 PM EDT
The people of Iraq aren’t like us in the national pride department. They live tribal feudalism. It’s all about me and my small group. So when hadji X is securing a facility 300 miles away, and extreme militants say, run away or you die, they run. The ones that don’t, (most of the Iraqi army is Shia) or the Sunni that they deem a threat, get dealt with unpleasantly. It’s hard for Joe American to understand not having a sense of national pride. That’s why democracy won’t work and it takes a dictator to keep the country stable.

Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:16:56 PM EDT
is it similar to ARVN? seems a bit like it from my limited reading
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:19:38 PM EDT
The Iraqi security forces need to be more afraid of who is behind them vs. who is in front of them.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:20:41 PM EDT
Better E&E skills for one thing..........
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:23:46 PM EDT
Recruit Ghurkas and Sikhs as police.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:24:14 PM EDT
can you imagine what it must feel like to be so broken as a man that you would drop your weapons, surrender and march to your death? I can't
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:24:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:24:43 PM EDT
We should've taken away all of their high speed toys, first.

No Stingers, M1A1M's, or F16's to start.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:27:12 PM EDT
Outsourced their military to the Qods force.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:28:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By coldair:
can you imagine what it must feel like to be so broken as a man that you would drop your weapons, surrender and march to your death? I can't
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surrendering to any Muslim even you're the same sect is insanity.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:29:33 PM EDT
Nothing. The problems there are beyond our ability to solve in anything shorter than 2 or 3 generations and with a lot of heavy handedness.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:30:12 PM EDT
Sent them to the Wizard of Oz to get some fucking courage.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:35:47 PM EDT
Nothing..

Every middle eastern person (Save for one) I have met are lazy cowards.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:42:41 PM EDT
I thought the original idea was to lease space for a large base there, and then provide training/guidance to their officer corps.

Instead, everything was pulled out, and the Iraqi Army leadership panicked when ISIS started making moves. They needed some advisors to tell them,
"okay, don't panic, take a deep breath and perhaps do X and Y".

Link Posted: 6/17/2014 2:45:39 PM EDT
The culture is thousands of years old. And Islam has a firm hold on every facet of their lives (for the most part). The US bureaucracy was competing against a long established culture with it's own mores and folkways. And Imams. Not much.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 3:46:48 PM EDT
Nuke the entire country. Turn it into a Glass sheet of Radioactive desolation.





Walk Away.


Link Posted: 6/17/2014 3:48:00 PM EDT
For all the people that think we should have pulled out immediately what do you think would have happened in Germany and Japan if we had not stayed there post WW2 to present day?
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 3:57:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AKengineer:
For all the people that think we should have pulled out immediately what do you think would have happened in Germany and Japan if we had not stayed there post WW2 to present day?
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Did we see an insurgency post defeat in Europe and Japan on anywhere near the scale that we did in Iraq?
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 3:58:50 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AKengineer:
For all the people that think we should have pulled out immediately what do you think would have happened in Germany and Japan if we had not stayed there post WW2 to present day?
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Japan and Germany would have turned to Islam and would have started another world war with muslim zombies.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 4:00:01 PM EDT
Split it into six countries. Tell each one that you've given nukes to the other 5.

Oh, and castrate all males over the age of 15.

Link Posted: 6/17/2014 4:00:29 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Danj:
Did we see an insurgency post defeat in Europe and Japan on anywhere near the scale that we did in Iraq?
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Originally Posted By Danj:
Originally Posted By AKengineer:
For all the people that think we should have pulled out immediately what do you think would have happened in Germany and Japan if we had not stayed there post WW2 to present day?
Did we see an insurgency post defeat in Europe and Japan on anywhere near the scale that we did in Iraq?
Of course not, we never left the country a power vacuum. We invaded, stayed, and are still there. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we had more active tanks in Germany than in the US at one point.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 4:04:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lord_Grey_Boots:
I thought the original idea was to lease space for a large base there, and then provide training/guidance to their officer corps.

Instead, everything was pulled out, and the Iraqi Army leadership panicked when ISIS started making moves. They needed some advisors to tell them,
"okay, don't panic, take a deep breath and perhaps do X and Y".

View Quote


That would help but you missed the bigger problem, all of the top leaders in the IA were appointed because they were buddies with Maliki. They were also incompetent.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 4:06:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2014 4:06:28 PM EDT by AKengineer]
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Originally Posted By 82nd_Sapper:


That would help but you missed the bigger problem, all of the top leaders in the IA were appointed because they were buddies with Maliki. They were also incompetent.
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Originally Posted By 82nd_Sapper:
Originally Posted By Lord_Grey_Boots:
I thought the original idea was to lease space for a large base there, and then provide training/guidance to their officer corps.

Instead, everything was pulled out, and the Iraqi Army leadership panicked when ISIS started making moves. They needed some advisors to tell them,
"okay, don't panic, take a deep breath and perhaps do X and Y".



That would help but you missed the bigger problem, all of the top leaders in the IA were appointed because they were buddies with Maliki. They were also incompetent.
I seem to remember reading that during de-Nazification they had trouble finding competent people that had nothing to do with the old regime so they but some of the same people back to work. Was de-Baathification of Iraq's government a shitshow or did the people elect a shitshow as soon as we let them?
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 4:25:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2014 4:28:16 PM EDT by DYNAMIC_ENTRY]
I spent two (2) years of my life training Iraqi Security Forces, If you put a suit on a pig it is just a dressed up pig. Hell they would show up in the morning at 0900 and break for lunch at Noon and come back a 1530 in time to leave. I had one group that showed up when they wanted because the were ALL related to the Local Elders. We were not allowed to fail them for any reason. The whole program was set up for failure from the get go. The only units that were mildly successful were the Special Operation units trained by SF and some of the Police SWAT teams.
The entire program was a numbers game which Required passing grades to meet.
Fuck Iraq and FBHO

P.S. I forgot to answer your original question. What could we have done to better prepare Iraqi Security Forces for our withdrawal? Either of occupied the shithole of a country for ever or Nuked them from orbit and put in a very large skate park.
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