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Posted: 9/18/2009 3:08:50 AM EST
Apparently there were Marines training Afghan soldiers when they were ambushed. Several attempts were made for artillery support but because of the number of civilians in the area the request was denied. It took attack choppers nearly an hour to reach them.

Anybody else got the story here?
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:10:53 AM EST
I really hope that this is not true.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:11:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 3:11:43 AM EST by peekay]


Nice fucking CiC we have.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:12:19 AM EST
Blame Obama––it's his new strategy.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:13:01 AM EST
anyone got a link? Need to send it to some people
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:13:37 AM EST
Its the war of today.

Glad I am out but cant help to feel bad for all the bullshit.

They now carry kids with them on missions so we dont fire on them

They are smart mother fuckers over there, you watch them with cameras and they sneak up and hit you with a rock
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:15:09 AM EST
Yes we did, courtesy of Gen McCrystal. A quick Google should find you guys all the links you don't want to read. Military.com ran a story about it yesterday....

A big fuck you to ISAF and Gen McCrystal.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:15:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 3:17:06 AM EST by No-Worries]

A week ago...........................

McClatchy Washington Bureau


Posted on Tue, Sep. 08, 2009
'We're pinned down:' 4 U.S. Marines die in Afghan ambush
Jonathan S. Landay | McClatchy Newspapers

last updated: September 09, 2009 04:43:53 PM

GANJGAL, Afghanistan —
We walked into a trap, a killing zone of relentless gunfire and rocket barrages from Afghan insurgents hidden in the mountainsides and in a fortress-like village where women and children were replenishing their ammunition.

"We will do to you what we did to the Russians," the insurgent's leader boasted over the radio, referring to the failure of Soviet troops to capture Ganjgal during the 1979-89 Soviet occupation.

Dashing from boulder to boulder, diving into trenches and ducking behind stone walls as the insurgents maneuvered to outflank us, we waited more than an hour for U.S. helicopters to arrive, despite earlier assurances that air cover would be five minutes away.

U.S. commanders, citing new rules to avoid civilian casualties, rejected repeated calls to unleash artillery rounds at attackers dug into the slopes and tree lines — despite being told repeatedly that they weren't near the village.

"We are pinned down. We are running low on ammo. We have no air. We've lost today," Marine Maj. Kevin Williams, 37, said through his translator to his Afghan counterpart, responding to the latter's repeated demands for helicopters.

Four U.S. Marines were killed Tuesday, the most U.S. service members assigned as trainers to the Afghan National Army to be lost in a single incident since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion. Eight Afghan troops and police and the Marine commander's Afghan interpreter also died in the ambush and the subsequent battle that raged from dawn until 2 p.m. around this remote hamlet in eastern Kunar province, close to the Pakistan border.

Three Americans and 19 Afghans were wounded, and U.S. forces later recovered the bodies of two insurgents, although they believe more were killed.

The Marines were cut down as they sought cover in a trench at the base of the village's first layer cake-style stone house. Much of their ammunition was gone. One Marine was bending over a second, tending his wounds, when both were killed, said Marine Cpl. Dakota Meyer, 21, of Greensburg, Ky., who retrieved their bodies.

HISTORY OF RESISTANCE

A full moon was drenching the mountains in ghostly light as some 60 Afghan soldiers, 20 border police officers, 13 Marine and U.S. Army trainers and I set out for Ganjgal at 3 a.m. from the U.S. base in the Shakani District.

The operation, proposed by the Afghan army and refined by the U.S. trainers, called for the Afghans to search Ganjgal for weapons and hold a meeting with the elders to discuss the establishment of police patrols. The elders had insisted that Afghans perform the sweep. The Americans were there to give advice and call for air and artillery support if required.

Dawn was breaking by the time we alighted for a mile-long walk up a wash of gravel, rock and boulders which winds up to Ganjgal, some 60 rock-walled compounds perched high up the terraced slopes at the eastern end of the valley, six miles from the Pakistani border.

Small teams of Afghan troops and U.S. trainers headed to ridges on the valley's southern and northern sides, setting up outposts as the main body headed slowly up toward the village and, unbeknownst to us, into the killing zone.

The terrain — craggy ravines and sweeping, tree-studded mountains riddled with boulders and caves — was made for guerrilla warfare. The ethnic Pashtun villagers pride themselves on their rejection of official authority, their history of resistance and their disdain of foreign forces that many regard as occupiers.

A possible clue to what was to come occurred when the lights in Ganjgal suddenly blinked out while our vehicles were still several miles away, crashing slowly through the semi-dark along a rutted track toward the village.

NO AIR SUPPORT

The first shot cracked out at 5:30 a.m., apparently just as the four Marines and the Afghan unit to which they were attached reached the outskirts of the village. It quickly swelled into a furious storm of gunfire that we realized had been prepared for our arrival.

Several U.S. officers said they suspected that the insurgents had been tipped off by sympathizers in the local Afghan security forces or by the village elders, who announced over the weekend that they were accepting the authority of the local government.

"Whatever we do always leaks," said Marine Lt. Ademola Fabayo, 28, a New Yorker who was born in Nigeria and is the operations officer for the trainers from the 3rd Marine Division. "You can't trust even some of their soldiers or officers."

Sniper rounds snapped off rocks and sizzled overhead. Explosions of recoilless rifle rounds echoed through the valley, while bullets inched closer to the rock wall behind which I crouched with a handful U.S. and Afghan officers.

Lt. Fabayo and several other soldiers later said they'd seen women and children in the village shuttling ammunition to fighters positioned in windows and roofs. Across the valley and from their ridgeline outposts, the Afghans and Americans fired back.

At 5:50 a.m., Army Capt. Will Swenson, of Seattle, WA, the trainer of the Afghan Border Police unit in Shakani, began calling for air support or artillery fire from a unit of the Army's 10th Mountain Division. The responses came back: No helicopters were available.

"This is unbelievable. We have a platoon (of Afghan army) out there and we've got no Hotel Echo," Swenson shouted above the din of gunfire, using the military acronym for high explosive artillery shells. "We're pinned down."

The insurgents were firing from inside the village and from positions in the hills immediately behind it and to either side. Judging from the angles of the ricochets, several appeared to be trying to outflank us to get better shots.

"What are you going to do?" Maj. Talib, the operations officer of the Afghan army unit, asked Maj. Williams through his translator.

"We are getting air," Williams replied.

"What are we going to do?" Talib repeated.

"We are getting air," Williams replied again, perhaps knowing that none was available but hoping to quiet Talib.

At 6:05 a.m., as our position was becoming increasingly tenuous, Swenson and Fabayo agreed that it was time to pull back and radioed for artillery to fire smoke rounds to mask our retreat.

"They don't have any smoke. They only have Willy Pete," Swenson reported, referring to white phosphorus rounds that spew smoke.

Fifty minutes later, as a curtain of white phosphorus smoke roiled across the valley, Swenson and Fabayo unleashed an intense volley of covering fire while the rest of us sprinted back some 20 yards to a series of dirt furrows, weighed down by our flak vests and water carriers.

The two officers raced back to join us. Everyone jumped up and ran for the next stone wall. Everyone but me. Afraid that too many people were jammed together as they raced, offering easy targets, I waited behind for a break in the gunfire, an Afghan border police officer crouched next to me.

TIME TO MOVE

We soon noticed that the insurgent snipers were trying to outflank us again. I saw one up on a small rise fire and miss us by several feet. My companion decided that it was time to go and bolted away across the wash, but the gunfire grew too intense, and again I pulled my body into the dirt and rocks.

I wasn't as terrified as I was angry: angry at the absence of air support, angry that there was no artillery fire, angry that Williams' interpreter had been killed, angry at the realization that the operation had obviously been betrayed and angry at myself for not bolting with the others.

I knew it was time to move when I saw a gaggle of Afghan soldiers pounding through the boulders past me, their commander, a bright 26-year-old lieutenant named Ruhollah, hopping between two of them, a bullet wound in his groin. Staying put was no longer an option.

Bundling my legs beneath me and grabbing the small bag I use to carry my pad, pens, glasses and other necessities, I sprang and ran, trying to weave as bullets kicked up dust around me.

I reached the next wall and plunged behind it, nearly falling on top of Swenson, Fabayo and several badly wounded U.S. soldiers.

As Fabayo cracked off rounds, Swenson lay flat on his back, clasping a pressure bandage to the shoulder of one soldier with one hand and holding the microphone of his radio in the other, calling out insurgents' positions to two U.S. helicopters that finally had arrived.

It was now 7:10 a.m., and with the helicopters prowling overhead and firing into the hillsides, the incoming gunfire slackened enough for us to move again.

I stumbled down the valley to safety after I helped one of the injured soldiers into a medivac helicopter. Capt. Swenson and Lt. Fabayo headed off to find vehicles and, together with Cpl. Meyer, crashed back up the way we'd just fled to retrieve the bodies of the dead Marines and any other casualties they could find.

ABOUT THE REPORTER

McClatchy's Jonathan S. Landay, who was ambushed with U.S. Marines in a remote Afghan village Tuesday, is a veteran foreign affairs reporter with long experience in South Asia, Iraq, the Balkans and Washington.

Landay covered South Asia — including Afghanistan — as well as the Balkans from 1985 to 1994 for United Press International and for The Christian Science Monitor. He joined the Knight Ridder Washington Bureau in 1999.

He was part of the Knight Ridder team, with State Department correspondent Warren P. Strobel and Bureau Chief John Walcott, that investigated and disproved the Bush administration's claims that Saddam Hussein's Iraq had an active nuclear weapons program and ties to al Qaida.

The team won a National Headliner Award for "How the Bush Administration Went to War in Iraq," a 2005 Award of Distinction from Northwestern University's Medill School of Journalism for "Iraqi Exiles Fed Exaggerated Tips to News Media," and a 2007 Edward Weintal Prize from Georgetown University's Institute for the Study of Diplomacy for the Iraq coverage.

The McClatchy Co. acquired Knight Ridder in 2006, and Landay is now the senior national security correspondent in the McClatchy Washington Bureau and a regular contributor to the bureau's Nukes & Spooks blog. He regularly travels to Afghanistan, Pakistan and other trouble spots.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/v-print/story/75036.html

Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:16:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By WildApple:

Anybody else got the story here?

Sadly it's true.

Story

Fucking politicians.....

Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:17:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 3:20:22 AM EST by fenderfreek]
Assuming this is true, back up and consider what's going on there. Unfortunate a task as it is, our guys are there for the sole purpose of being in harm's way. The civilians are not.

If they held off because there was a good chance civilians would be killed, then they made the correct ethical decision. It's tragic, but that's what war is. The only solution is to kick ass and gtfo as quickly as possible.

ETA: Now that I see the article they said they weren't actually near any civilians. It also noted that the "civilians" were actually helping the insurgents. Fuck 'em.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:18:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By osprey21:

Originally Posted By WildApple:

Anybody else got the story here?

Sadly it's true.

Story

Fucking politicians in uniform.....




We all expect this shit from the politicians in DC....but when one of the fuckers actually get's into a uniform...it become's a bad situation very rapidly..
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:18:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:19:55 AM EST
Kill all civilians!!!
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:20:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By fenderfreek:
Assuming this is true, back up and consider what's going on there. Unfortunate a task as it is, our guys are there for the sole purpose of being in harm's way. The civilians are not.

If they held off because there was a good chance civilians would be killed, then they made the correct ethical decision. It's tragic, but that's what war is. The only solution is to kick ass and gtfo as quickly as possible.


Pretty easy to say from here. Rule of thumb is the guys on the ground make the call, not the commanders safe in the rear or those 10K miles away.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:21:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By kpel308:
Originally Posted By fenderfreek:
Assuming this is true, back up and consider what's going on there. Unfortunate a task as it is, our guys are there for the sole purpose of being in harm's way. The civilians are not.

If they held off because there was a good chance civilians would be killed, then they made the correct ethical decision. It's tragic, but that's what war is. The only solution is to kick ass and gtfo as quickly as possible.


You did read the part where the poor civilian women and children were re-supplying the attackers, right?


I started typing before that was posted. I've recanted my opinion on that.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:21:21 AM EST
Someone needs to stand in front of a firing squad. Sadly, he is wearing a US uniform.

Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:21:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By fenderfreek:
Assuming this is true, back up and consider what's going on there. Unfortunate a task as it is, our guys are there for the sole purpose of being in harm's way the sole purpose of killing our enemy and destroying his means to make war. The civilians are not.almost always involved in some way shape or form and should be that fucking close to an ambush anyways. Seriously, can you tell me with a straight face that anyone that would be in the impact zone if those Marines had gotten their fire support, was not involved in counter-US operations...

If they held off because there was a good chance civilians would be killed, then they made the correct ethical decisionWar is not ethical. It never has been. It never will be. It's tragic, but that's what war is. The only solution is to kick ass and gtfo as quickly as possible how do you suggest we do that without fire support?.


Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:22:30 AM EST
fricking bastages, this sucks

i honestly think that anyone who makes it easier, (politician, or civilian) for the enemy to fight us should be prosecuted for F$%^&%$#$ treason and giving aid and comfort to the enemy

I Hate this crap
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:26:36 AM EST
ROE is fucked. Fucking politicians and MSM suck ass.

RIP Marines.

Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:29:03 AM EST
It is under investigation.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:31:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By R0N:
It is under investigation.


There's nothing to investigate. Bullshit ROE and Pussy-Politicians wearing stars got 4 Marines killed.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:31:52 AM EST
time to pull our troops out until we have a CiC that has a back bone.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:35:32 AM EST
US SROE allows the on scene commander to use the force required to safe guard his troops. This means, that the guy on the ground makes the call and may be buying the bullet if it is later determined to much force was used (that being said unless you go wily nilly slaughter civilians after the firing stops you generally are safe, because very few officers are going to not side with you in a court). If the on scene commander has organic fire power than there are no issues. The problem becomes the newest tactical directive put a chilling effect on the usage of non-organic fire power. Even if the on scene commander decides it is appropriate another commander who owns the fire can say no.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:39:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By Cavalry_Scout:
Originally Posted By R0N:
It is under investigation.


There's nothing to investigate. Bullshit ROE and Pussy-Politicians wearing stars got 4 Marines killed.


Well there actually is. Why did the artillery commander, wether battalion or battery, refuse to fire, or was it the battle space owner? What went wrong with the air? If prior coordination was made, why was not avialable? Why did it take 50 minutes to fire smoke/WP which normally should be able to be shot in under 10 minutes.

By the way it is not the ROE, its an ISAF tactical directive. The Standing ROE (SROE) has not and will not change and it says the on scene commander has the resonsibility to use all necassary force to safeguard his troops.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:39:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 4:19:33 AM EST by R0N]
Originally Posted By Cavalry_Scout:
Originally Posted By R0N:
It is under investigation.


There's nothing to investigate. Bullshit ROE and Pussy-Politicians wearing stars got 4 Marines killed.


Well there actually is. Why did the artillery commander, whether battalion or battery, refuse to fire, or was it the battle space owner? What went wrong with the air? If prior coordination was made, why was not available? Why did it take 50 minutes to fire smoke/WP which normally should be able to be shot in under 10 minutes.

By the way it is not the ROE, its an ISAF tactical directive. The Standing ROE (SROE) has not and will not change and it says the on scene commander has the responsibility to use all necessary force to safeguard his troops.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:57:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 4:02:30 AM EST by WolfFox]
If women and children are helping and supplying the insurgents shooting at our troops, doesn't that make them enemy insurgents too? Are they innocent civilians at that point? I think not!
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 4:12:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By WolfFox:
If women and children are helping and supplying the insurgents shooting at our troops, doesn't that make them enemy insurgents too? Are they innocent civilians at that point? I think not!


they are to the fucking Democrats.

fuck it's hard to fight a war when we are worried about a knife in our back with Congress written on the hilt.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 4:16:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 4:18:03 AM EST by Evildude87]
We should have just nuked that shit hole from the beginning... Would have saved a ton of time, money and most importantly the lives of our countrymen/women. Those peolpe choose to live there, too bad...
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 4:27:21 AM EST
"women and children were replenishing their ammunition" = fair game
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 10:57:48 AM EST
hate to break it to you, but that policy was started before Obungo. There have been numerous accounts of similar actions in both Iraq and Afghanistan. It's the ROE in general-
Many troops are now afraid to fire on threats because it is beat into their heads in training that if it is a "bad shoot" they are going to prison. There shouldn't be that kind of judgement-If a trooper feels threatened, he should have the right to engage without fear of repercussions. During my PreMob training back in 2006, the trainers actually told us stories of several soldiers who were killed because they took fire from buildings with civilians and were not allowed/didn't return fire for fear of collateral damage (or similar circumstances). Fuck that noise
Hell, even during the invasion my unit was denied air support because of "possible civilian collateral damage"-even though we were told it was a free fire zone and that all civilians had been evacuated.
I agree that it is stupid and that the desicions need to be made by the scene commander. I would rather have a hundred or more dead foreign fighters, supporters or whatever before I would want a single dead American.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 11:12:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 11:16:43 AM EST by Sleepy1988]
Originally Posted By No-Worries:

A week ago...........................

McClatchy Washington Bureau


Posted on Tue, Sep. 08, 2009
'We're pinned down:' 4 U.S. Marines die in Afghan ambush
Jonathan S. Landay | McClatchy Newspapers

last updated: September 09, 2009 04:43:53 PM

GANJGAL, Afghanistan —
We walked into a trap, a killing zone of relentless gunfire and rocket barrages from Afghan insurgents hidden in the mountainsides and in a fortress-like village where women and children were replenishing their ammunition.





Two videos describe what should be done to that village very succinctly


One

Two
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 11:13:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By WildApple:
Apparently there were Marines training Afghan soldiers when they were ambushed. Several attempts were made for artillery support but because of the number of civilians in the area the request was denied. It took attack choppers nearly an hour to reach them.

Anybody else got the story here?


Sounds like a repeat of Vietnam.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 11:18:58 AM EST
More and more I think Afghanistan is where Empires go to die.
First it was the British.
Next, the Soviets.
I guess now it's our turn.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 12:14:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 12:20:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 12:30:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 12:31:18 PM EST by titansfan]
I wrote my congressional representatives last night, with the article attached
Told them
The blood of these Marines is on your hands, (and those that voted you into office)
as you have allowed the media and political correctness dictate our ROE

Either let our guys Fight, (with every resource available to them) or get them out

Marines,Thank you for your service and sacrifice, RIP
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 1:48:16 PM EST
The safety of innocent civis should take priority over the safety of a professional soldier.


Link Posted: 9/18/2009 1:57:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 1:59:55 PM EST by Cavalry_Scout]
Originally Posted By bulletsponge13:
hate to break it to you, but that policy was started before Obungo. There have been numerous accounts of similar actions in both Iraq and Afghanistan. It's the ROE in general-
Many troops are now afraid to fire on threats because it is beat into their heads in training that if it is a "bad shoot" they are going to prison. There shouldn't be that kind of judgement-If a trooper feels threatened, he should have the right to engage without fear of repercussions. During my PreMob training back in 2006, the trainers actually told us stories of several soldiers who were killed because they took fire from buildings with civilians and were not allowed/didn't return fire for fear of collateral damage (or similar circumstances). Fuck that noise
Hell, even during the invasion my unit was denied air support because of "possible civilian collateral damage"-even though we were told it was a free fire zone and that all civilians had been evacuated.
I agree that it is stupid and that the desicions need to be made by the scene commander. I would rather have a hundred or more dead foreign fighters, supporters or whatever before I would want a single dead American.


hate to break it to you but the far more restrictive policy was put in place by Gen McCrystal just a month or two ago..


eta- august 2009 specifically...
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 2:35:24 PM EST

well, if this is the way we have to "fight" over there it's all over. Rules of engagement be damned, I'm afraid we are getting into another Viet Nam letting the pols determine strategy and cowardly generals worry more about silly villians than our troops lives. What a damn shame!
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 5:30:13 PM EST
Because they went to war. It is an unfortunate side effect of war that men die, everything can be done right and guys still die.

Could have things been better, I am sure of that. But even without the tactical directive or SROE, people die at war.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 5:46:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cavalry_Scout:
Originally Posted By bulletsponge13:
hate to break it to you, but that policy was started before Obungo. There have been numerous accounts of similar actions in both Iraq and Afghanistan. It's the ROE in general-
Many troops are now afraid to fire on threats because it is beat into their heads in training that if it is a "bad shoot" they are going to prison. There shouldn't be that kind of judgement-If a trooper feels threatened, he should have the right to engage without fear of repercussions. During my PreMob training back in 2006, the trainers actually told us stories of several soldiers who were killed because they took fire from buildings with civilians and were not allowed/didn't return fire for fear of collateral damage (or similar circumstances). Fuck that noise
Hell, even during the invasion my unit was denied air support because of "possible civilian collateral damage"-even though we were told it was a free fire zone and that all civilians had been evacuated.
I agree that it is stupid and that the desicions need to be made by the scene commander. I would rather have a hundred or more dead foreign fighters, supporters or whatever before I would want a single dead American.


hate to break it to you but the far more restrictive policy was put in place by Gen McCrystal just a month or two ago..


eta- august 2009 specifically...


There was a multi-page shitshow in late June about this started by an article in which the General restated/reinforced an older policy.

My take is that a lack of fires definitely sucks, but it is a necessary evil in the COIN fight. The policy is in place to ensure civilian safety, which is the key to COIN operations. With that said there will be shitty situations like this. If we had given them fires, the Marines may have been saved. On the other hand, killing those "civilians" may have caused other villages to side against coalition forces. How many more soldiers and Marines would we have lost by retaking/pacifying those villages?
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 5:51:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 5:52:46 PM EST by DvlDog]
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By Cavalry_Scout:
Originally Posted By R0N:
It is under investigation.


There's nothing to investigate. Bullshit ROE and Pussy-Politicians wearing stars got 4 Marines killed.


Well there actually is. Why did the artillery commander, wether battalion or battery, refuse to fire, or was it the battle space owner? What went wrong with the air? If prior coordination was made, why was not avialable? Why did it take 50 minutes to fire smoke/WP which normally should be able to be shot in under 10 minutes.

By the way it is not the ROE, its an ISAF tactical directive. The Standing ROE (SROE) has not and will not change and it says the on scene commander has the resonsibility to use all necassary force to safeguard his troops.


jeebus...it took half a page but finally someone who knows what the fuck they are talking about speaks up. Thanks R0N. There is a lot of stupid in this thread.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:02:40 PM EST
You guys really want me as President of the U.S.

I'm thinking of making a run in 2012. I'll change shit for sure around here.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:04:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:06:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:07:35 PM EST
ROE designed to protect politicians, Admirals and Generals from criticism and, therefore, to kill the troops.



5sub
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:09:44 PM EST
Hopefully, this is a dupe of this thread. I hate to think that this happened AGAIN.

Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:11:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By SigSauer228:
You guys really want me as President of the U.S.

I'm thinking of making a run in 2012. I'll change shit for sure around here.


Sorry but I'm backing Mickey Mouse in 2012. Anyone stupid enough to vote for obama or mccain will damn sure vote for Mickey.



5sub
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:19:07 PM EST
It won't be long before we do not have any working helicopters with Jimmy II in the white house.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:20:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By WoodDevil:
Blame Obama––it's his new strategy.


Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:25:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By kpel308:
Originally Posted By zipzipzipper:
The safety of innocent civis should take priority over the safety of a professional soldier.




I take it you are not one?


As much as I hate to agree with zip, that's the reality of the war we are fighting. Obviously, these were not innocent civilians in this case, but as a serviceman I have to see the bigger picture. Arabic Media will paint a very different picture of what occurred; a picture that will sway villages to turn against us. How many servicemen will be sacrificed in those villages?

I have not deployed yet for what it's worth. That said, I hope my ideals are worth more than my life...
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