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Posted: 8/2/2005 7:56:42 PM EDT
[#1]
How can you have 22 "M-16s modified to fire in FA" and 61 total "M16 type rifles"
They had 39 semi auto M-16s?  wha? huh? oh and 34 AR-15s... This list looks an awful lot like BS. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 8:00:10 PM EDT
[#2]
And, if IIRC, no .50 cal.
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Posted: 8/2/2005 8:01:54 PM EDT
[#3]
And if I remember right the weapons were destroyed before and independent agency could examine them. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 8:02:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Yes, it's been posted and reposted quite a few times. It's definitely a false report. It's been picked apart so thoroughly on this site that the Feds ought to be ashamed they did such a piss-poor job of throwing it together.
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Posted: 8/2/2005 8:03:33 PM EDT
[#5]
How many ash-caked pacifiers, rattles and baby-bottles did they find? 
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Posted: 8/2/2005 8:08:37 PM EDT
[#6]
I went there once when I was stationed at Ft Hood. Spent some time talking with Clive Doyle and a lady whose name escapes me right now . Changed the way I think about a good many things.
-K |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 8:13:46 PM EDT
[#7]
so is "assorted rifles" what they put when they're trying to inflate the numbers, but don't know just what to say?
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Posted: 8/2/2005 8:58:45 PM EDT
[#8]
To this day I'm sickened that this could happen in the US and that the murdering sons of whores that got away with it are still walking arounf free.
 
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Posted: 8/2/2005 9:00:05 PM EDT
[#9]
So what is the overall AR15.com opinion on the weapons that the BD had? Does anyone believe there were illegal MGs/weapons in the compound?
Semper Fi, ASO544 |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 9:27:59 PM EDT
[#10]
I believe that every MG, weapon,vehicle, down to the boot laces, that was on that compound, That was being used by a Fed. or anyone that was working with the Feds. was there illegaly. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 9:30:45 PM EDT
[#11]
I have a video about the whole thing where koresch SP? told the feds that if they didn't leave him alone, he would start converting his weapons to fire auto. But didn't have any converted until after the initial raid started.
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Posted: 8/2/2005 9:52:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Not many. Plastics burn... And I am sure any that survived were sure as hell were disposed of quickly. They would not want any pictures of that sort around. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 10:09:52 PM EDT
[#13]
The Branch Davidians only had 248 AR15 mags.
Some arfcom members have more than that. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 10:14:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Shhhhhhhh 
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Posted: 8/2/2005 10:15:03 PM EDT
[#15]
 -Troy |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 10:19:16 PM EDT
[#16]
That news story(forgot who)about the .50 cal said that they had two of them they even showed one of them on the floor in a burned out building....... |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:50:27 AM EDT
[#17]
Why the fuck does it not surprise me that the .gov can tell you they found EXACTLY *thirty-six* M16/AR15 recoil springs, but they can't find the goddamn front door that would have proved who shot at who first?
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:54:25 AM EDT
[#18]
During the televised hearings the NRA requested that they be allowed to Xray the alleged FA AK47's that the .gov was parading around and were denied being loaned the weapons. When NRA replied that they had brought PORTABLE Xray machines, they were refused again. That says alot. Dave |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:55:09 AM EDT
[#19]
Janet Reno should be in a federal prison.
Sheep |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 3:13:49 AM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 8/3/2005 3:45:02 AM EDT
[#21]
I saw several .308 rifles on that list but remember reading somewhere they had no .308 ammo on hand. Strange but many of the dead had .308 holes in their heads. Go figure.
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Posted: 8/3/2005 3:46:58 AM EDT
[#22]
+1 Remember CS gas will not harm babies. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 4:00:25 AM EDT
[#23]
During the televised hearings the NRA requested that they be allowed to Xray the alleged FA AK47's that the .gov was parading around and were denied being loaned the weapons. When NRA replied that they had brought PORTABLE Xray machines, they were refused again.
That says alot. Dave Actually, the request came from Senators who sent staffers down, accompanied by techs from Failure Analysis, to examine the rifles. Permission was given, but withdrawn when they brought in the Xray machines. The purpose was to see if the AR-15's and AK's had been equipped with autosears. To this day it has not been proven that the Branch Davidians had "fully automatic weapons". And they can't supply the front door, either. 
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Posted: 8/3/2005 4:30:55 AM EDT
[#24]
And the Davidians charged with murdering Federal Agents were acquited. By a Texas jury.
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Posted: 8/3/2005 4:41:35 AM EDT
[#25]
Janet Reno is a lesbo socialist bitch!
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Posted: 8/3/2005 4:45:57 AM EDT
[#26]
1 Air Rifle
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Posted: 8/3/2005 5:35:09 AM EDT
[#27]
That's the one that didn't melt so they couldn't claim it was an M16.  The point is what weapons they had or didn't have doesn't have a thing to do about that tragic event unless you are an anti-gun person then it helps you justify the tatics that resulted in the tragic deaths of so many innocent children in a most horrible fashion. No matter how you shake that tree it still comes out staged media event gone bad followed by the most blatant coverup in my lifetime to include Tonkin Gulf Incident. This report was just one more play at the media and part of that coverup. Tj |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 5:51:51 AM EDT
[#28]
I made a little side trip to the compound after Gunstock last year.
Just being there is a pretty sobering experience. The place is a lot smaller than I imagined after what I saw on the TV. There's is still a lot of debris and melted metal bits lying around. Koresh's motorcycle is still there, all twisted from being run over by a tank or APC. It's sad that people originally came to this country to escape persecution for their religious beliefs. Koresh was a nutbag, probably a pedophile but to murder those people.... If you look at all the memorial stones in the field of trees you can see by the birthdates dates on the stones that one very young girl became a mother. I have no love lost for DK but they could have picked him up in town that morning. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 6:03:18 AM EDT
[#29]
Just remember, the ATF is there in the wings, waiting to do it again. And they will, if they get an administration that orders them to.
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Posted: 8/3/2005 6:04:22 AM EDT
[#30]
I remember watching it live as it all unfolded...I told the wife "they can't be doing this!"
But they did...
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Posted: 8/3/2005 6:57:17 AM EDT
[#31]
Yea, me too. Hadn't felt so betrayed since the fall of Saigon.  When Janet did her "The buck stops here" speach, I almost puked. I now look back at those years and it amases me how short peoples memories are and what a double standard is applied in this country. I now endure insults to our president for flip flops in the White House while remembering Waco, cime scndals in Arkansas, suicides, terrorist acts unavenged, our soldiers under the command of Nato, our soldiers dead bodies dragged through the streets while we tuck tail and run, and blow jobs redefined as not being sex all being common place and accepted by much of public. Yea, guys you think Waco sucked. Vote for Hilary next election. She'll give new meaning to the word sucks.  Tj |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 7:32:32 AM EDT
[#32]
This topic needs to be rehashed so we all cam remember, and bring back to the surface old feelings. That kinda thing should NEVER happen in the US. Its sad to see what the ATF is so willing to do to push their agenda.
Very sad indeed
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Posted: 8/3/2005 7:53:06 AM EDT
[#33]
Imagine the outcry and media condemnation if it had been John Ascroft taking out a mosque full of children.
Just remember, Bush is not perfect, BUT WE CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE ANOTHER CLINTON IN THE WHITEHOUSE!!!! |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:06:32 AM EDT
[#34]
Who cares if they had FA weapons, even if they did have htem at worst theat means it should be a tax violation....
Hope y'all paid your taxes on time this year..... (And yes i know that the ATF has ruled that new manufacture of machine guns is illegal, I also know that a court ruled that that in itself was illegal and unconstitutional, but that it was unlikely anyone would see a change because of that) |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:19:42 AM EDT
[#35]
I honestly don't know which is worse: That our government could murder it's own citizens in a most brutal and blatant way,
or that so few people care........ It was one of the worst atrocities in all of American history. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:44:56 AM EDT
[#36]
Well even if the ATF is waiting in the wings, its not like they did a stellar job the first time.
Hell imagine how it would have gone had the building been made of brick or concrete and the fire risk was minimal. How many more casualties would there have been on the ATF side? The ATF has a hard on and wants to be like the Russian NVD complete with old tanks and wheeled APCs. "Internal Security" force. Pff. ATF thought they were hot shit and then got their ass handed to them when they tried to breach. I think thats a lot of the reason for ATF's unoffical hatred of military style weapons (why do you need that)...their pissed that they were evenly matched, and they don't tlike that. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 9:11:16 AM EDT
[#37]
I don't know bud, that incident took the wind out of their sails a tad. Regardless of how little the public knows, they know what happened. An agency already with a bad public opinion over a sex discrimination charge seeking public approval by staging a media event doesn't sound like something your average agent would come up with. I can't imagine those officers watching their buddies being shot or the famillies of those officers thinking Waco was a good idea. The officers were sold down the river from the start by management with the final blow coming from Whitehouse. Like most, they do like their toys but media shows escalated by tipping off the suspects, I wouldn't figure is high on their list right now. Besides only a fool would think another incident like that wouldn't create a public outcry this time that couldn't be white washed. It's easy for one to identify the men in black as the criminals and yes no power has the right to order you to do something unethical, but the real badguys of Waco never even got their hands dirty and people bled for their genius idea. Many point a finger at those in uniform cause they did the deed, others point a finger at Koresh cause he was bad, but using the same logic Waco caused the Oklahoma bombing which if flawed logic. Ultimately I blame the genius that came up with the idea, the bosses who approved it, and the bosses all the way to Whitehouse that helped cover it up. I also bet a hell of a lot of ATF agents wish they could post that without losing their jobs. Tj |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 9:19:20 AM EDT
[#38]
The US always makes sure that there is a US general/admiral in charge of NATO for this...(or so I was told) |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 11:15:52 AM EDT
[#39]
I went to spend a weekend with a friend of mine during the siege, right before they burned the place down.
He was attending TSTC, the technical school in Waco. He lived on campus in the dorms, which were pretty much just standard apartment complexes. All of the empty dorms were commandeered by the feds. While we were there, we watched feds park where they wanted, intimidate kids, and generally act like asshats, all while carrying various weapons [MP-5's, CAR's etc] even off-duty. I had the feeling that this is what it'd be like to be "occupied". Many folks were upset about the situation. The Waco incident was a sad chapter in American history, IMHO. Complete bullshit.
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Posted: 8/3/2005 11:17:33 AM EDT
[#40]
The few who survived, anyways... |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 11:18:08 AM EDT
[#41]
Big +1. Well said. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 11:33:35 AM EDT
[#42]
I honestly dont believe that list.... waco was in 93. they've had two years to cook up that? Same reason I don't believe the affidavits(yes I've read them).
They just killed 83 people. They needed to find some way to get out of SERIOUS trouble... I don't believe a fucking word that comes from the feds. As for the whole incident, I don't care if they had a damn missile launcher buried in there, the feds had no business being there. The warrant was for one fucking man, Vernon Howell, who made appearances at a restaurant in town every other day to eat like clockwork. All they had to do was go there and waiting for him with two or three agents. That is it. They did NOT need to go commando on the entire ranch(it's not a compound, get over it. it was a fucking ranch). But what did they do? Byebye 83 men, women and CHILDREN. 3 ATF agents died?! GOOD! All that for one fucking man. Feds can make all the excuse they want and I'll hear all the crap from other people saying the feds didn't do anything. I don't believe it. After seeing the original warrant, ALL of this could have been EASILY prevented...... it was nothing more than a "tough-guy" farce for the government to flex its muscles. As for David Koresh being a pedophile and a nutbag? Are you sure? was this info obtained from affidavits or did the surviving people admit it? If they admitted it, ok then maybe he is then. If it's from the affidavits then I wont believe it. Remember, one of the key things that generates a lot of sympathy is the "do it for the children" routine or mention that children are being harmed. That's all it takes to get peoples' emotions spinning out of control. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 12:00:42 PM EDT
[#43]
It was also a search warrant for the "ranch/compound". That is what the initial raid was about. I think they should have arrested Howell/Koresh outside of the compound then executed the search warrant. This might have "taken the wind out of the BD's sails" without their "spiritual leader around". The concern was BDs would be expecting the ATF when they came, but in the end, they were anyway. Semper Fi, ASO544 |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 12:18:32 PM EDT
[#44]
+1 |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 12:19:03 PM EDT
[#45]
What little video I've seen of the initial raid was a real eye opener. What'd the ATF goons have? 100 agents?
One hundred armed agents and they were still repelled. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 12:24:33 PM EDT
[#46]
No, seriously, I watched it on TV live... |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 12:32:45 PM EDT
[#47]
I dunno TJ, I've seen ATF's own footage in a couple of movies and they were indiscriminately shooting into the building. They didn't seem to worry about cover, so I don't think they were under all that much threat. Bottom line is that it's illegal and irresponsible for you and I to fire indiscriminately into a dwelling, regardless of whether it has 8 people in it or 80. It's my opinion that any agent who stayed on site past the initial raid is a criminal. Dave |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 12:34:56 PM EDT
[#48]
Fixed it for you.
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Posted: 8/3/2005 12:36:35 PM EDT
[#49]
They are all guilty as sin, from Clinton and Reno, right down to every agent who pulled a trigger or drove a tank.
"Just obeying orders", doesn't get it. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 12:39:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Agreed. Well said, Pooby. |
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