Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 8/2/2005 7:49:51 PM EDT
Branch Davidian firearms recovered
Might be a dupe but i thought it was interesting.

usgovinfo.about.com/blwacoguns.htm
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 7:56:42 PM EDT
How can you have 22 "M-16s modified to fire in FA" and 61 total "M16 type rifles"

They had 39 semi auto M-16s? wha? huh?

oh and 34 AR-15s...


This list looks an awful lot like BS.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:00:10 PM EDT
And, if IIRC, no .50 cal.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:01:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How can you have 22 "M-16s modified to fire in FA" and 61 total "M16 type rifles"

They had 39 semi auto M-16s? wha? huh?

oh and 34 AR-15s...


This list looks an awful lot like BS.



And if I remember right the weapons were destroyed before and independent agency could examine them.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:02:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 8:03:02 PM EDT by 82ndAbn]
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:03:33 PM EDT

How many ash-caked pacifiers, rattles and baby-bottles did they find?

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:08:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 8:14:32 PM EDT by Special-K]
I went there once when I was stationed at Ft Hood. Spent some time talking with Clive Doyle and a lady whose name escapes me right now . Changed the way I think about a good many things.

-K
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:13:46 PM EDT
so is "assorted rifles" what they put when they're trying to inflate the numbers, but don't know just what to say?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:58:45 PM EDT
To this day I'm sickened that this could happen in the US and that the murdering sons of whores that got away with it are still walking arounf free.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:00:05 PM EDT
So what is the overall AR15.com opinion on the weapons that the BD had? Does anyone believe there were illegal MGs/weapons in the compound?


Semper Fi,
ASO544

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:27:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 9:29:45 PM EDT by R-32]

Originally Posted By ASO544:
Does anyone believe there were illegal MGs/weapons in the compound?





I believe that every MG, weapon,vehicle, down to the boot laces, that was on that compound, That was being used by a Fed. or anyone that was working with the Feds. was there illegaly.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:30:45 PM EDT
I have a video about the whole thing where koresch SP? told the feds that if they didn't leave him alone, he would start converting his weapons to fire auto. But didn't have any converted until after the initial raid started.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:52:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 9:54:51 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
How many ash-caked pacifiers, rattles and baby-bottles did they find?




Not many.

Plastics burn... And I am sure any that survived were sure as hell were disposed of quickly.

They would not want any pictures of that sort around.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:09:52 PM EDT
The Branch Davidians only had 248 AR15 mags.

Some arfcom members have more than that.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:14:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Justa_TXguy:
The Branch Davidians only had 248 AR15 mags.

Some arfcom members have more than that.





Shhhhhhhh
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:15:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:19:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By METT-T:
And, if IIRC, no .50 cal.



That news story(forgot who)about the .50 cal said that they had two of them
they even showed one of them on the floor in a burned out building.......
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:50:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 2:50:41 AM EDT by TheOtherDave]
Why the fuck does it not surprise me that the .gov can tell you they found EXACTLY *thirty-six* M16/AR15 recoil springs, but they can't find the goddamn front door that would have proved who shot at who first?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:54:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:


And if I remember right the weapons were destroyed before and independent agency could examine them.



During the televised hearings the NRA requested that they be allowed to Xray the alleged FA AK47's that the .gov was parading around and were denied being loaned the weapons. When NRA replied that they had brought PORTABLE Xray machines, they were refused again.

That says alot.

Dave
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:55:09 AM EDT
Janet Reno should be in a federal prison.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:13:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:


And if I remember right the weapons were destroyed before and independent agency could examine them.



During the televised hearings the NRA requested that they be allowed to Xray the alleged FA AK47's that the .gov was parading around and were denied being loaned the weapons. When NRA replied that they had brought PORTABLE Xray machines, they were refused again.

That says alot.

Dave

no to mention that gun sure as hell dindt look like it was pulled out of a burning building.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:45:02 AM EDT
I saw several .308 rifles on that list but remember reading somewhere they had no .308 ammo on hand. Strange but many of the dead had .308 holes in their heads. Go figure.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:46:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 3:47:29 AM EDT by M1-Matt]

Originally Posted By SheepDog_556:
Janet Reno should be in a federal prison.


Sheep


+1

Remember CS gas will not harm babies.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:00:25 AM EDT
During the televised hearings the NRA requested that they be allowed to Xray the alleged FA AK47's that the .gov was parading around and were denied being loaned the weapons. When NRA replied that they had brought PORTABLE Xray machines, they were refused again.

That says alot.

Dave


Actually, the request came from Senators who sent staffers down, accompanied by techs from Failure Analysis, to examine the rifles. Permission was given, but withdrawn when they brought in the Xray machines. The purpose was to see if the AR-15's and AK's had been equipped with autosears. To this day it has not been proven that the Branch Davidians had "fully automatic weapons".

And they can't supply the front door, either.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:30:55 AM EDT
And the Davidians charged with murdering Federal Agents were acquited. By a Texas jury.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:41:35 AM EDT
Janet Reno is a lesbo socialist bitch!
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:45:57 AM EDT
1 Air Rifle
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:35:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 5:35:30 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:51:51 AM EDT
I made a little side trip to the compound after Gunstock last year.
Just being there is a pretty sobering experience. The place is a lot smaller than I imagined after what I saw on the TV. There's is still a lot of debris and melted metal bits lying around. Koresh's motorcycle is still there, all twisted from being run over by a tank or APC.
It's sad that people originally came to this country to escape persecution for their religious beliefs. Koresh was a nutbag, probably a pedophile but to murder those people....
If you look at all the memorial stones in the field of trees you can see by the birthdates dates on the stones that one very young girl became a mother.
I have no love lost for DK but they could have picked him up in town that morning.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:03:18 AM EDT
Just remember, the ATF is there in the wings, waiting to do it again. And they will, if they get an administration that orders them to.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:04:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:57:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:32:32 AM EDT
This topic needs to be rehashed so we all cam remember, and bring back to the surface old feelings. That kinda thing should NEVER happen in the US. Its sad to see what the ATF is so willing to do to push their agenda.

Very sad indeed
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:53:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 7:55:36 AM EDT by senorFrog]
Imagine the outcry and media condemnation if it had been John Ascroft taking out a mosque full of children.

Just remember, Bush is not perfect, BUT WE CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE ANOTHER CLINTON IN THE WHITEHOUSE!!!!
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 8:06:32 AM EDT
Who cares if they had FA weapons, even if they did have htem at worst theat means it should be a tax violation....

Hope y'all paid your taxes on time this year.....

(And yes i know that the ATF has ruled that new manufacture of machine guns is illegal, I also know that a court ruled that that in itself was illegal and unconstitutional, but that it was unlikely anyone would see a change because of that)
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 8:19:42 AM EDT
I honestly don't know which is worse: That our government could murder it's own citizens in a most brutal and blatant way,

or that so few people care........

It was one of the worst atrocities in all of American history.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 8:44:56 AM EDT
Well even if the ATF is waiting in the wings, its not like they did a stellar job the first time.

Hell imagine how it would have gone had the building been made of brick or concrete and the fire risk was minimal. How many more casualties would there have been on the ATF side?

The ATF has a hard on and wants to be like the Russian NVD complete with old tanks and wheeled APCs. "Internal Security" force. Pff. ATF thought they were hot shit and then got their ass handed to them when they tried to breach. I think thats a lot of the reason for ATF's unoffical hatred of military style weapons (why do you need that)...their pissed that they were evenly matched, and they don't tlike that.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 9:11:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 9:19:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By anothergene:
I remember watching it live as it all unfolded...I told the wife "they can't be doing this!"
But they did...



Yea, me too. Hadn't felt so betrayed since the fall of Saigon.

When Janet did her "The buck stops here" speach, I almost puked.

I now look back at those years and it amases me how short peoples memories are and what a double standard is applied in this country. I now endure insults to our president for flip flops in the White House while remembering Waco, cime scndals in Arkansas, suicides, terrorist acts unavenged, our soldiers under the command of Nato, our soldiers dead bodies dragged through the streets while we tuck tail and run, and blow jobs redefined as not being sex all being common place and accepted by much of public.

Yea, guys you think Waco sucked. Vote for Hilary next election. She'll give new meaning to the word sucks.

Tj




The US always makes sure that there is a US general/admiral in charge of NATO for this...(or so I was told)
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:15:52 AM EDT
I went to spend a weekend with a friend of mine during the siege, right before they burned the place down.

He was attending TSTC, the technical school in Waco. He lived on campus in the dorms, which were pretty much just standard apartment complexes.

All of the empty dorms were commandeered by the feds. While we were there, we watched feds park where they wanted, intimidate kids, and generally act like asshats, all while carrying various weapons [MP-5's, CAR's etc] even off-duty. I had the feeling that this is what it'd be like to be "occupied". Many folks were upset about the situation.

The Waco incident was a sad chapter in American history, IMHO. Complete bullshit.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:17:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcculver5:
And the Davidians charged with murdering Federal Agents were acquited. By a Texas jury.



The few who survived, anyways...
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:18:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By anothergene:
I remember watching it live as it all unfolded...I told the wife "they can't be doing this!"
But they did...



Yea, me too. Hadn't felt so betrayed since the fall of Saigon.

When Janet did her "The buck stops here" speach, I almost puked.

I now look back at those years and it amases me how short peoples memories are and what a double standard is applied in this country. I now endure insults to our president for flip flops in the White House while remembering Waco, cime scndals in Arkansas, suicides, terrorist acts unavenged, our soldiers under the command of Nato, our soldiers dead bodies dragged through the streets while we tuck tail and run, and blow jobs redefined as not being sex all being common place and accepted by much of public.

Yea, guys you think Waco sucked. Vote for Hilary next election. She'll give new meaning to the word sucks.

Tj




Big +1. Well said.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:33:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 11:35:29 AM EDT by Voldermortist]
I honestly dont believe that list.... waco was in 93. they've had two years to cook up that? Same reason I don't believe the affidavits(yes I've read them).

They just killed 83 people. They needed to find some way to get out of SERIOUS trouble...

I don't believe a fucking word that comes from the feds.

As for the whole incident, I don't care if they had a damn missile launcher buried in there, the feds had no business being there. The warrant was for one fucking man, Vernon Howell, who made appearances at a restaurant in town every other day to eat like clockwork. All they had to do was go there and waiting for him with two or three agents. That is it. They did NOT need to go commando on the entire ranch(it's not a compound, get over it. it was a fucking ranch). But what did they do? Byebye 83 men, women and CHILDREN.

3 ATF agents died?! GOOD!

All that for one fucking man.

Feds can make all the excuse they want and I'll hear all the crap from other people saying the feds didn't do anything. I don't believe it. After seeing the original warrant, ALL of this could have been EASILY prevented......

it was nothing more than a "tough-guy" farce for the government to flex its muscles.

As for David Koresh being a pedophile and a nutbag? Are you sure? was this info obtained from affidavits or did the surviving people admit it? If they admitted it, ok then maybe he is then. If it's from the affidavits then I wont believe it. Remember, one of the key things that generates a lot of sympathy is the "do it for the children" routine or mention that children are being harmed. That's all it takes to get peoples' emotions spinning out of control.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:00:42 PM EDT

As for the whole incident, I don't care if they had a damn missile launcher buried in there, the feds had no business being there. The warrant was for one fucking man, Vernon Howell, who made appearances at a restaurant in town every other day to eat like clockwork. All they had to do was go there and waiting for him with two or three agents. That is it. They did NOT need to go commando on the entire ranch


It was also a search warrant for the "ranch/compound". That is what the initial raid was about. I think they should have arrested Howell/Koresh outside of the compound then executed the search warrant. This might have "taken the wind out of the BD's sails" without their "spiritual leader around". The concern was BDs would be expecting the ATF when they came, but in the end, they were anyway.

Semper Fi,
ASO544
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:18:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SheepDog_556:
Janet Reno should be in a federal prison.


Sheep



+1
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:19:03 PM EDT
What little video I've seen of the initial raid was a real eye opener. What'd the ATF goons have? 100 agents?

One hundred armed agents and they were still repelled.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:24:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
During the televised hearings the NRA requested that they be allowed to Xray the alleged FA AK47's that the .gov was parading around and were denied being loaned the weapons. When NRA replied that they had brought PORTABLE Xray machines, they were refused again.

That says alot.

Dave


Actually, the request came from Senators who sent staffers down, accompanied by techs from Failure Analysis, to examine the rifles. Permission was given, but withdrawn when they brought in the Xray machines. The purpose was to see if the AR-15's and AK's had been equipped with autosears. To this day it has not been proven that the Branch Davidians had "fully automatic weapons".

And they can't supply the front door, either.



No, seriously, I watched it on TV live...
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:32:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
It's easy for one to identify the men in black as the criminals and yes no power has the right to order you to do something unethical, but the real badguys of Waco never even got their hands dirty and people bled for their genius idea.
Tj



I dunno TJ, I've seen ATF's own footage in a couple of movies and they were indiscriminately shooting into the building. They didn't seem to worry about cover, so I don't think they were under all that much threat. Bottom line is that it's illegal and irresponsible for you and I to fire indiscriminately into a dwelling, regardless of whether it has 8 people in it or 80.

It's my opinion that any agent who stayed on site past the initial raid is a criminal.

Dave
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:34:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
It's my opinion that any agent who stayed on site past the initial raid is a criminal.


Fixed it for you.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:36:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:39:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
I made a little side trip to the compound after Gunstock last year.
Just being there is a pretty sobering experience. The place is a lot smaller than I imagined after what I saw on the TV. There's is still a lot of debris and melted metal bits lying around. Koresh's motorcycle is still there, all twisted from being run over by a tank or APC.
It's sad that people originally came to this country to escape persecution for their religious beliefs. Koresh was a nutbag, probably a pedophile but to murder those people....
If you look at all the memorial stones in the field of trees you can see by the birthdates dates on the stones that one very young girl became a mother.
I have no love lost for DK but they could have picked him up in town that morning.




Agreed. Well said, Pooby.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top