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Posted: 3/16/2001 11:21:18 AM EDT
[B]  "You burned his house down with grenades, and there was
                                                       no reason for it!" William Jay of Concerned Citizens of Echo
                                                       Park shouted. "We don't need that kind of Rampart stuff
                                                       around here." [/B]

"   The incident began about 6:30 a.m., when the man called 911 to report an attempted
                                                       burglary. A neighbor said that an hour earlier, he had heard the man fire a shot.
                                                           When police arrived, the man, who owned at least eight registered guns, fired a few
                                                       rounds, then refused to come outside because "he didn't believe we were really the
                                                       police," Sgt. John Pasquariello said."

Well geez, another "robbery" call. How much do you want to bet that if this guy didn't resist, there would be reports of another "arsenal" being seized???

Man Found Dead in Burned Home After Standoff
                                                          Blaze: Resident fires more than 50 rounds from his Echo Park house in 12-hour

                                                       By LOUIS SAHAGUN, Times Staff Writer

Link Posted: 3/16/2001 11:34:02 AM EDT
Good statement, refuse to accept blame after throwing dozens of flamable gas canisters on 50-100 year old dry wood.[v]

"I'm not sure if it was our flash-bangs or the suspect who started the fire," said Los
                                                       Angeles Police Department Capt. Kyle Jackson
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 11:40:17 AM EDT
This guy was a paranoid delusional who thought the CIA/FBI were targeting him.

He came out of the house and shot at the police several times during the course of the standoff.

Would you rather the police just left him there to shoot the Mail man, paper boy, or domino's driver when he mistakes them for his imagined enemies?
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 11:43:20 AM EDT
I guess each person is entitled to his own opinion. However, If someone is pointing a gun at me, he obviously wants to die. Wether it be from me shooting him or burning down his house, I have to preserve my life. I would have done the same as the PD did.

My 2 Cents
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 12:18:39 PM EDT
I can't imagine that people really place blame on the law enforcement officers response to an armed gunman firing at them.  Get Real.  Can I come to your house and pop a few rounds off at you?  If so, please give me your address and I will bring a few brothers in law and we can make a day out of it.  If you think for one minute that you can do a better job than they can, strap on your wonder nine and a vest that will barely stop low power pistol rounds and be one of the few men and women in this country with the balls to respond to a situation like that(in a hurry im sure) You who feel this way toward law enforcement need to take a few steps in our boots.  I have a family and quite a stash of guns at home just like you may. That does not mean that I share your ideas on who's fault it is when someone gets shot or killed by police.  Life is about descisions good or bad.  Mature folks allow those who make bad decisions answer for them on their own.  We will continue to be there for all of you when you need us regardless of what you think of us as a whole.  We are what is keeping this country together not you who sell stocks or work at banks or stores to get full from the fat of the land.  We will continue to accept MEAGER wages and risk our lives EVERY DAY to ensure that our children have a world to grow up in.  Blessed are the peacemakers for they are the children of God. [)(*]
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 12:45:30 PM EDT
Here we go again.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 12:51:25 PM EDT
I respect LEO for the job they do. I have stood up for them more than once when a person says that they used unnecessary force. If someone tries to take me from my family I figure they brought the problem on themselves and it is my duty as a father and husband to turn the tables so I will return home. On the other hand, one volunteers to be a LEO for a living just as I volunteered for my job. So I do not like it when LEO, school teachers or anyone else says that they will do a job and then complain about the work involved or the pay they make. Also (rwest) it is not the LEO's that are keeping this country together. After all, it is the threat of encarceration that allows the government to force it's unrighteous, unconstitunial agenda. But infact it is the clerks, the blue collar wokers, and the white collar workers that will keep this country together. Not by the job they perform but by the patriotism and courage that they have in their hearts to forge forward everyday standing up for God and our Constitution by their every action and word. (RWEST) I know people probably got under your skin but lets keep things in balance and most of all, make sure you do what is necessary to return home safely to your wife and kids.
Now, lets just all get along.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 3:45:31 PM EDT
You notice most the LEO type replies use the idea of association with respect to have arms at home. They share the joy of gun ownership and shooting as a citizen to the point of having a 'Selection' of firearms at their ready.


The average citizen who has nearly the same selection of firearms at home. The first difference is LEO types have a built in legal aspect that puts them above and beyond the bans and most of the BATF ludicrous red tape.

Secondly most legal snafu's the LEO suffers are generally glossed over and swept away, they keep their weapons, almost never suffer loss of income due to 'Administrative' actions.

Hell they rarely, if ever, suffer conviction.

So their 'Cache of Assault Weapons' aren't splashed across any news source.

The major difference is they are the arm of the initial gun grab but under the guise of legal actions of another nature. Paint the gun owner as an insane idiot holed up like a rat.

But I wonder how many times these stories that surface are reported spoonfed info but the reality may be that they isolate the perp after some sort of profile being made. Any egress attempt by the perp is fired upon and kept holed up. Warfare designed inside the urban environs, expressly designed and carried out as practiced.

All for the media story released as we see it.

Gun control by popular decision, and vote, from the great unwashed-uninformed media voter.

My opinion of course, but then again welcome to Amerika the Crusher.

Besides how big the balls got to be to force one  scared dude to fire upon a hoard of black pajama wearin A-Holes who invade his space.

This dude may have been insane but how would you hold up mentally if these LEO killers surround you?

Link Posted: 3/16/2001 5:09:21 PM EDT
I try as much as I can to stay based in the reality that not everyone has deep seeded hatred in their hearts for the LEO.  I am the one who chose this job knowing full well what the pay was.  I have no complaints reference the work only those who, under the guise of concerned citizens, continue to make the work impossible.  The same concerned citizens are the ones who complain when we drive too fast or take too long or put the handcuffs on too tight.  The common tactic is to complain so much about the LEO action that their own actions be overshadowed and often forgotten.  The media is the weapon used to kill America's faith in those who TRULY protect her.  Watch the news and see if a mistake made bt an LEO is "glossed over" no they are made top story and right or wrong we are all painted with the same brush. You who feel this way about LEO have the same mentality as those who felt it necessary to spit at my father when he returned from Southeast Asia a long time ago.  These are the same people who have made sure that I can barely do my job without drowning in paperwork and legal quagmires due to the rights they have ensured for the GUILTY.  These are te same people who have ensured that the prisoners of the state have televisions and can get law degrees to handle their own appeals or sue their captors frivilously.  Incarceration is hardly a deterrent to most with the jails and prisons brimming with people.  It used to be a threat 30 years ago when people had respect for theirselves and those who served their communities.  My grandfather was a LEO in Northern Wyoming and he Rarely carried a gun.  He explained it was a different time and people were different.  You will see what is done with my Cache of weapons when the day comes.  You will all be surprised to see the first line of weapon collectors (LEO) draw back and smack the people who give that unconstitutional order to collect a law abiding citizens arms.  I firmly believe that you will see the LEO beside you in the civil war that will erupt the day they come for the guns.  Even louder than the sound of my V match will be the sound of my brother's badges striking the ground.  We swore to protect the constitution and the people.  If it means we must protect them from the government then so be it.  okay I will try to get along even with the ignorant few who think that paranoia is a good excuse for skirting reality and their own idiotic views.  Also I CAN get new high capacity magazines and you can't (jk) If that hurts your feelings, carry more magazines. Sorry
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 5:34:14 PM EDT
rwest, thank you for a most enlightning post.

Although we don't agree fully point for point, I  appreciate the time taken in your words.

I do not feel that I am experiencing a single reality unknown to others. My opinions are garnered from personal experience and research.

A civil insurrection would suggest a  level of organization, people meeting and organizing.
This is considered a crime.

Any sort of idea expressed dealing with such issues is marked for attack as conspiracy.

I don't like the idea itself but you have to admit the roots are forming in little insurrections that originated as peaceful demonstration against globalism but then turned violent by the addition of armed militaristic police.

Escalation is inevitable with every new representation of military police forcing unarmed people to their knees.

Bank on it.


Link Posted: 3/16/2001 6:55:34 PM EDT
RWEST, you seem to be one of the good LEO's who would not mind arresting a fellow LEO who broke the law. You are not one of the ones that believes its a brotherhood and you are some how more pure than the average citizen. I am also glad to see that you do not hold any ill feelings towards those who "sell stocks", "work in stores", "work in banks" or any of those other impure professions. I will sleep better knowing that you are protecting me from these evil people getting fat off the land. I am also glad to see that you do not feel that those pain in the ass citizens (whom complain about things like officers breaking speeding or otherwise breaking the law) should be silenced. It is nice to see that you don't mind filling out paperwork when someone is suspected of breaking the law instead of just assuming that they are guilty.  You also strongly oppose the idea of police officers having more rights than the average citizen, and would throw your badge to the ground the instant that you were ordered to confiscate the countries weapons, or this right was slowly infringed say by banning certain magazines for the general public.

Before you interpret this as a personal attack let me say that all I was going to ask originally was your opinion on what should be done to the LEO whose son shot a man with his pistol, and what should be done if the circumstances were the same except that the father of the three year old is a stock broker.

Unfortunately when I reread your posts I truly became angry, not necessarily at you but at the realization at the difference between the current generation of LEO's and the generation of LEO's before them. I realized that the difference was that the older generation actually did the things that you believe you do. They followed the law, they treated everyone with respect, saw themselves as equal to the general population, would not have stood for police corruption. The new generation talks about doing these things, but it is not because they believe in them. They feel that they are superior to the average citizen because they are LEO's, and would not hesitate to ban free media, limit firearms to types that cannot hold more than one round, or change the presumption of innocence to the presumption of guilt if it made the streets safer for themselves. They also believe that they should be allowed to speed on our highways or be violent to the perpetrators of crime, besides its not like they are just the average drug addict they are Police Officers. SORRY, it just makes me mad because I know that most of the LEO's are very good people who take their job because they truly believe in the protecting the rights of the average citizen, and some who want to become LEO's because they believed that it would get them state sanctioned superiority to the average citizen.

Link Posted: 3/16/2001 11:12:00 PM EDT
This guy was a paranoid delusional who thought the CIA/FBI were targeting him.
View Quote

Ahhhh....not anymore! He just came off the list.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 5:30:52 AM EDT
Im glad you became angry.  You are full of sh*t until about half way through your post.  You can bet your ass the new generation of LEOs are different.  Look outside, read the paper, watch the news we are DYING BY THE HUNDREDS EVERY YEAR.  Why is that would you say?  Maybe your anger should refocus on discovering the reasons for the senseless deaths of MY FELLOW BROTHERS.  Yes I do feel that we are separate from the rest of the nation. SEPARATE, NOT BETTER.  Can you go out to a night club with your wife and not have to worry about getting into a fight for your life in the restroom?  Do you sleep at night knowing that every asshole you have arrested the past 5 years knows exactly where you live (in a community of 25000)  Do people spit on you and call you names at work?  Are you like me?  NO but does that make me any better than you NO.  Is my profession a noble one YES.  Are you interested in any of these things because my department is 16 officers down right now and we sure could use the help of a smart guy like you.  We have very little in common with the Leos from the past.  Think about it.  You can continue to feel the way you like about me and the job I do and the people who do the same but...please don't wonder why we stick together in a tight 360.  who will watch my back YOU?  Didn't think so.  Who will watch yours ME?  DAMN RIGHT I WILL.  As far as fellow officers misconduct I despise it.  It pains me to see the rampant stupidity that this profession is often afflicted with.  Like it states in my previous post, we all get painted with the same brush we are known only as LEOs just look around this site. A LEO is usually crucified to show the citizens that we will police our own. FAIR...NO TRUE...YES.  I have nothing against stock brokers or bankers or store owners I just believe that I am more fortunate than they are to be able to serve my community instead of myself.  One other reason that I can think of that somewhat explains the LEO of today.  We are constantly around other LEO on duty and off.  This does tend to slant and distort views.  Obviously YOU dont have that problem.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 5:41:09 AM EDT
Take a deep breath, my man. Get your point across and leave it at that. I know where you're coming from; I hate to see officers get needlessly bashed on some of these gun boards too. But ya got to pick and choose the battles you are gonna fight on the boards; some of these folks are just plain anti-LEO and wont listen to any explaination you try to give them. They've got it into their heads that it's a giant conspiracy, that LEO's are hell-bent to go out and put the American people into a gulag.
 When you're done battling, come on over to [URL]http://www.officer.com[/URL] and hang out with some fellow officers and calm down.  Or check out CopTalk at [URL]http://glocktalk.com[/URL].  A public board and still some loose cannons, but not bad.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 10:37:23 AM EDT
RWEST, I have nothing but respect for the community of law enforcement, and I do think that the fact that hundereds of LEO's die a year is bullsh*t. I  think that this country needs to do something about it, and we need to do it right now. But I think that the problem is coming from sick twisted people and not from things like high capacity magazines. Once you start taking away rights to make the streets safer it is hard to stop, and really it should never happen in the first place. But whatever, I don't want to argue with anybody. If you are not too offended please answer my question about the kid with the gun, I am truly intrested in the opinion from a police officer.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 1:05:51 PM EDT
You are correct once again, magazines are not killing cops.  Good observation.  I feel the High Cap ban is not only unconstitutional but stupid.  I carry 45 rds of ammo in 3 mags for duty.  Why cant you carry 50 rds in five mags.  It makes no sense just more mag changes.  I struggle to find any logic behind this legislation (and most other legislation for that matter especially when I am LEO in a state who's governor is leading the fight to legalize drugs marijuana, heroin, cocaine,and all)

The thing with the kid and the gun is Criminal Negligence.  I think that that is the type of thing that the feds love to hear.  Just like the school shootings are.  justification to one day collect all the guns.  Anyhow the guy I'm sure feels terrible but...he created the problem and now he must stand tall for what he has done.  I feel bad for all parties involved, especially the one that got shot.  He would also be charged (in this state) with child abuse and neglect (Felony 4) He may even be charged with Negligent Homicide if the guy died.  I really don't know much about the situation but he should be treated FAIRLY.  Something you would like no doubt.  I also think that they should call him by his name instead of saying LEO kid shoots guy.  The same brush theory again.  It is sad and highly embarrasing to all Leo.  It is also a wake up call for all those who may have needed it.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 1:39:09 PM EDT
Let me throw a few things in here.  As to the burnt down house with the criminal in it, there is ONE possibility here.  Meth users have that high degree of paranoia like this individual and will not believe you are the cops even standing in front of them in uniform.  The Meth screws them up that bad.  Along with the fact they dont sleep for weeks at a time.  Also Meth lab ingredients are HIGHLY flammable and many labs end up burning down.  I dont know if that is the case in the above story but it sure gives that impression to me.

As to older or old-time cops being somehow better and more moral and less corrupt is patent bullshit.  Prior to the late 1960's-early 1970's law enforcement in this country was often made up of inept, untrained, thugish and often times highly corrupt police officers.  Training was not required by most departments and payoffs and active engagement in crime was almost epidemic in law enforcement.  The larger the department the more corrupt it usually would be.  Just look at the "roaring" 20's and the Depression era if you want to see lots of examples of this.

So you say "Yeah JBT asshole, but look at how much less crime there was back then!"  Well, part of the reason for that was that even though there was corruption and outright thugery in law enforcement, there was still active law enforcement taking place---at the end of the nightstick and the barrel of the gun and at the fists of large and mean cops.  The penalty for law breaking was not always meeted out in court but in the nearest alley, basement, squad car back seat or precinct lock-up.  It is amazing how many criminals thought twice about breaking the law the next time.  The truly hard core criminals didnt give a damn like always so they ended up dead in a shootout, beaten to death or locked away in jail eventually by less liberal judges than now.

Todays Officer is highly trained, has higher intelligence (how many cops in the 50's had college degrees?), more motivated and far more trustworthy.  However he is far more restricted by society, the courts, the laws, the media and cop-haters than ever before.  Thinking that you know all about old time cops from watching the Andy Griffith Show or Barney Miller is ignorance at best and stupidity at worst.

 If you want to hate a class of people, go hate those that actively destroy society instead of the ONLY group of people that are the shield between you and total anarchy.

Oh yeah I forgot, you will kill em all and let God sort em out if they set foot in your double wide or your room at mom's house.
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 4:14:19 AM EDT
Gun Toter, you have made my week with that post.  I am sure that there are more folks like you out there.  That is about the only reason to go to work every night on graves.  I know that It is my turn to do my part, to make sure people like you can sleep without worrying about their property or lives being threatened or endangered.

Thanks GT
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 9:20:07 AM EDT
Just a reality check for the [i]Mall Ninja Mentality[/i] LE.  You are not the sole saviors of society, guys.  

We are what is keeping this country together
View Quote

What percentage of the work you do actually consists of stopping a crime?  Out of 100 crimes that you are involved in, how much is after-the-fact investigation? How much is actually stopping a crime in progress?  I would guess maybe 5% on the latter.  LE's role in crime, in the vast majority, is investigating.  LE's capacity as crime [i]prevention[/i] is very limited.  You can't be everywhere all the time, and to rely on you in that capacity is absurd, right along with the inference of that being your job.

Don't get me wrong.  I am not down on LE in general.  A purpose is being served.  But the gradual move of LE to military type tactics DOES worry me.  One step closer to a standing army, and a police state.  

What really burns me is these no-knock warrants that result in an innocent civilian getting killed, and then no one is held accountable.  

Link Posted: 3/18/2001 1:00:21 PM EDT
"... a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual
             — Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

And there are many other court decisions that state the same thing.
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 3:43:26 PM EDT
You have great arguments but don't put yourself in a position to look like you are ignorant and just following along with what people tell you.  According to last years United States General Accounting Office, 24 officers died in car accidents and 26 died from firearms.  Don't play the games of the media for them.  They are pandering to the masses.

Please don't think that this is a flame in any way.  I am on your side, and have somewhat of a unique perspective being a bail bondsman.
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 4:10:38 PM EDT
Here we go again. [sleep]
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