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Posted: 10/1/2011 3:59:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 4:27:35 PM EST by VoodooChile]
This was the case a few years ago where 2 girls were walking down a country road near their homes and someone shot them 13 times..Bullets and rifling tell investigators that the shots were from a Glock .40...Investigators send letters to local Glock owners asking them to have their guns tested. Years later hey managed to come up with a serial number although they claim there have been no other major breaks in the case.

http://www.newson6.com/story/15589031/handgun-connected-to-weleetka-girls-murder-sought


WELEETKA, Oklahoma –– The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation is looking for a key piece of evidence used in the murder of two Weleetka girls in June 2008.

The item is a Glock .40 caliber handgun with the serial number of EKG463US.

9/20/2011 Related Story: Oklahoma Law Enforcement Agency Looking For A Particular Handgun

The OSBI says whoever has the gun is not suspected of any crime, but says it wants the current owner of the handgun to contact the OSBI at 800-522-8017.

The OSBI so far has not explained how it obtained the serial number for the gun or why it believes this particular gun is the murder weapon.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:02:36 PM EST


COBIS??


Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:03:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:04:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 4:06:28 PM EST by NoStockBikes]
Because they caught the person, but need the gun as evidence?

ETA: To clarify, I mean they have someone that they strongly suspect, but need the gun to match to the crime... Maybe didn't actually catch the guy, but if they can get the weapon and match it, they'll be making an arrest.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:06:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The shell casing that comes with the gun?


If it comes in the box the fuzz doesn't have it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:06:08 PM EST
I thought that too, but the maker doesn't turn in any shell casings. They include some in the box with the gun because some states require it but the purchaser of the gun has to send them in, right?
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:06:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 4:08:07 PM EST by substandard]

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The shell casing that comes with the gun?

Oklahoma doesn't make the FFLs turn in the fired cases.

ETA: my guess, they have a very good suspect and know that the suspect at one time owned said gun. Suspect later disposed of or sold the pistol, now the LEOs need the gun to match ballistics.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:06:29 PM EST
So is someone going to step forward or do you think they'd grind it to nothing rather than deal with the feds?
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:08:45 PM EST
could be the police are bluffing, hoping something will break loose.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:08:48 PM EST
With 13 rounds from a Glock .40, you'd think they'd be looking for a G23 instead of a G22.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:13:02 PM EST
That very fact that they can look up and contact folks via model of firearm is disturbing to me.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:14:15 PM EST
drain grand lake.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:14:28 PM EST
Have a suspect and he bought a gun with that sn before the crime?
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:15:07 PM EST
It said "years later" they came up with a sn. Maybe Glock finally matched the crime scene cartridge, but hit a dead end with finding any owner in the paper trail.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:17:44 PM EST
maybe perp is in jail and had purchased gun before, and now they are looking for it? some sort of sex offender got busted?
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:20:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By GAcop:
I thought that too, but the maker doesn't turn in any shell casings. They include some in the box with the gun because some states require it but the purchaser of the gun has to send them in, right?


I don't believe so. I understood that the FFL turned those in at the time of sale in states that required it.

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong if it's proven otherwise though.

My guess is that the gun was sold in one of those states - and they want the current owner to turn it in for verification testing. (Presuming, of course, the current owner didn't own it at the time.)
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:21:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Overdose:
So is someone going to step forward or do you think they'd grind it to nothing rather than deal with the feds?


If the current owner was not involved in the crime, grinding up the pistol would be a bad idea.
Turn it in and you lose the gun. Grind it up and you risk conviction of a felony (obstructing justice). Get convicted of a felony and you lose all your guns.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:21:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The shell casing that comes with the gun?


Thats my guess. Just because the shooting was in OK - doesn't mean that the firearm purchase was. So the casing may have been submitted in a state requiring it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:23:52 PM EST
I dunno, but OHP needs to deliver some .40 to the perp's knees and abdomen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:26:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:29:08 PM EST
I hope they catch the bastard.

And then I hope he receives a full measure of due process, and a fair trial by a jury of his peers.

And if he is found guilty, I hope he gets strapped to that gurney in that green room, and the chemicals are not as "painless" as they say.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:29:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By 4bangin:
maybe perp is in jail and had purchased gun before, and now they are looking for it? some sort of sex offender got busted?

This is my guess. They have a suspect who owned the SN in question, but the suspect says he sold it. So, now the cops want to see if the ballistics match, and they need the gun for that.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:29:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By GAcop:
I thought that too, but the maker doesn't turn in any shell casings. They include some in the box with the gun because some states require it but the purchaser of the gun has to send them in, right?


In NY the dealer has to send it in as soon as it's purchased, so it stays in the box untill someone buys it, and puts it on their permit. Than it gets sent in.

I could be somewhat wrong on the exact process, but I'm close.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:36:54 PM EST


I'm calling BS. If a Glock had been used they would have found the steel and polymer shrapnel at the scene.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:03:56 PM EST
I am fairly certain they can tell it is a glock just by looking at the primer. If I remember right the glock has a square firing pin, most other guns have a round firing pin.

Perhaps it is an older LEO gun and the shells are in the system? maybe it was used in a crime before?
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:07:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 5:10:14 PM EST by SoonerBorn]
A guy named Kevin Sweat. I have been told they have a serial number of a glock that he had possession of and are now looking for the glock to match it up. This is second hand info, but the source is usually correct about everything they say.


I am not sure what evidence they have against him, other than he alledgedly had a glock fotee.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:19:08 PM EST
Bad guy legally buys gun at a FFL.

Bad guy kills girls.

Bad guy sells gun

Bad guy gets caught and admits to owning a glock he bought at Billy Bob's Gun Shop.

Feds go to Billy Bobs and get the S/N from his bound book.

Profit.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:25:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Bad guy legally buys gun at a FFL.

Bad guy kills girls.

Bad guy sells gun

Bad guy gets caught and admits to owning a glock he bought at Billy Bob's Gun Shop.

Feds go to Billy Bobs and get the S/N from his bound book.

Profit.


Possible - but if bad guy bought it legally, they can link it to him via records and don't need the gun. Then again, maybe they want it anyway.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:31:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By zeke013:
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Bad guy legally buys gun at a FFL.

Bad guy kills girls.

Bad guy sells gun

Bad guy gets caught and admits to owning a glock he bought at Billy Bob's Gun Shop.

Feds go to Billy Bobs and get the S/N from his bound book.

Profit.


Possible - but if bad guy bought it legally, they can link it to him via records and don't need the gun. Then again, maybe they want it anyway.

They need the gun to match it to the bullets.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:31:52 PM EST
Good police work?
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:34:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:
Because they caught the person, but need the gun as evidence?

ETA: To clarify, I mean they have someone that they strongly suspect, but need the gun to match to the crime... Maybe didn't actually catch the guy, but if they can get the weapon and match it, they'll be making an arrest.


That would be my guess. If they know the serial number then they probably know the guy/gal that purchased it from the FFL.




Impeach Obama for the Good of the Women.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:37:44 PM EST
I've talked to an undergrad forensic science major. They had to take a bunch of classes about recognizing clues on casings/bullets.

I hope to hell that forensic science majors aren't making decisions in these cases. They are clueless. At least whatever they are taught in school is useless.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:40:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Overdose:
So is someone going to step forward or do you think they'd grind it to nothing rather than deal with the feds?


If the current owner was not involved in the crime, grinding up the pistol would be a bad idea.
Turn it in and you lose the gun. Grind it up and you risk conviction of a felony (obstructing justice). Get convicted of a felony and you lose all your guns.


Are you saying that the killer may have sold the gun to someone else and that someone needs to come forward with the gun and point out the killer? I am not sure that that would be a good idea for the current owner as the cops are likely to pin the crime on the current owner and not the real killer.




Impeach Obama for the Good of the Forests.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:41:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By 6winchester2:
I hope they catch the bastard.

And then I hope he receives a full measure of due process, and a fair trial by a jury of his peers.

And if he is found guilty, I hope he gets strapped to that gurney in that green room, and the chemicals are not as "painless" as they say.


"Gosh, how DID that Drano get in there?"

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:42:28 PM EST
No idea. That is an interesting request.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:43:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By 4bangin:
maybe perp is in jail and had purchased gun before, and now they are looking for it? some sort of sex offender got busted?

This is my guess. They have a suspect who owned the SN in question, but the suspect says he sold it. So, now the cops want to see if the ballistics match, and they need the gun for that.


The suspect probably said that he sold it BEFORE the crime so that he can pin the crime on someone else.




Impeach Obama for the Good of the Humming Birds.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:44:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 5:45:41 PM EST by kelone]
Can someone please clear this up for me:
I get the impression that 'ballistics' is complete bullshit - at least, the idea of matching a fired bullet (no matter how pristine) to a specific gun.
Maybe I'd believe it if every gun were made by hand, but in mass manufactured hand guns, where parts are interchangeable, and tolerances are measure in 1/1000's of an inch, it all sounds like complete bullshit.
Am I mistaken?

ETA: although pithy insults are entertaining, I'd really appreciate some details on why what I said is wrong, if it is
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:45:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By SoonerBorn:

Originally Posted By zeke013:
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Bad guy legally buys gun at a FFL.

Bad guy kills girls.

Bad guy sells gun

Bad guy gets caught and admits to owning a glock he bought at Billy Bob's Gun Shop.

Feds go to Billy Bobs and get the S/N from his bound book.

Profit.


Possible - but if bad guy bought it legally, they can link it to him via records and don't need the gun. Then again, maybe they want it anyway.

They need the gun to match it to the bullets.


Could also substitute in:

Bad guys buddy gets picked up on some lesser charges, cuts a deal to lower his sentence or get linency for information on a murder Jimmy Dean did. Feds find out Jimy Deal purchased a glock from a FFL so they got the serieal from the bound book but need the gun to match it to the bullets to actually make charges stick.

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:48:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By substandard:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The shell casing that comes with the gun?

Oklahoma doesn't make the FFLs turn in the fired cases.

ETA: my guess, they have a very good suspect and know that the suspect at one time owned said gun. Suspect later disposed of or sold the pistol, now the LEOs need the gun to match ballistics.


This is the most likely scenario, me thinks.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:48:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 5:50:30 PM EST by wilNva]
Originally Posted By kelone:
Can someone please clear this up for me:
I get the impression that 'ballistics' is complete bullshit - at least, the idea of matching a fired bullet (no matter how pristine) to a specific gun.
Maybe I'd believe it if every gun were made by hand, but in mass manufactured hand guns, where parts are interchangeable, and tolerances are measure in 1/1000's of an inch, it all sounds like complete bullshit.
Am I mistaken?

ETA: although pithy insults are entertaining, I'd really appreciate some details on why what I said is wrong, if it is


Glocks use different barrel bores then 'normal' guns. So just a quick visual inspection would tell if it was pushed thru a hexagon barrel or normal rifling.

So they could easily determine it was a glock.

Then the way they narrow it down to a specific gun is the way the barrel cuts scratches in the jacket of the bullet. Each barrel is unique, even in the same barrel each 1/2 will cut it's own unique pattern, it's very small differences but it's there, it's just a product of machingin operations not being perfect.

A good way to think of it, is if you take your fist and punch it thru a wall 15 times, each hole will look slightly different even though your fist is the same, now reduce that to a near microscopic level and the minute burrs left by the barrel cutting process.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:51:41 PM EST
When I worked at Glock I was told they keep the barrel profiles on file for all of the pistols manufactured. How they do this I do not know. I would think with barrel machining they would all be within 99.999% of each other and without a test bullet (preserved in gelatin) I don't see how the rifling can be recognized. Test casings were after my time in '98, we sure as hell didn't capture or pickup spent cases for the guns we tested. They were fired 4 times by a pneumatic machine/jig. Spent cases were swept up and discarded afterwards.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 6:03:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The shell casing that comes with the gun?


I'm pretty sure that only New York and Maryland actually keep the shell casings. My guess is that they have a strong lead in the case who bought that gun on traceable paperwork and claims that he sold it to someone but he doesn't recall who bought it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 6:10:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By kelone:
Can someone please clear this up for me:
I get the impression that 'ballistics' is complete bullshit - at least, the idea of matching a fired bullet (no matter how pristine) to a specific gun.
Maybe I'd believe it if every gun were made by hand, but in mass manufactured hand guns, where parts are interchangeable, and tolerances are measure in 1/1000's of an inch, it all sounds like complete bullshit.
Am I mistaken?

ETA: although pithy insults are entertaining, I'd really appreciate some details on why what I said is wrong, if it is


It relies on the examination of micro toolmarks. Wear on mass produced parts occurs differently on items produced in the same factory. The factory tooling wears from production run to production run. This is a difference. The slide of a handgun gets racked and dry fired at the store. This will change wear marks in the gun. The gun goes to the range and gets run. The extractor changes leaving a changed mark on the case. The case has marks from the mag , feeding into the chamber, and the firing pin. These marks change from unit to unit and from year to year, dependent upon condition and use, during the life of the firearm.

Forensic ballistics can be beaten. But most people don't know how.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 6:38:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The shell casing that comes with the gun?




Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:34:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By discworld717:
Originally Posted By kelone:
Can someone please clear this up for me:
I get the impression that 'ballistics' is complete bullshit - at least, the idea of matching a fired bullet (no matter how pristine) to a specific gun.
Maybe I'd believe it if every gun were made by hand, but in mass manufactured hand guns, where parts are interchangeable, and tolerances are measure in 1/1000's of an inch, it all sounds like complete bullshit.
Am I mistaken?

ETA: although pithy insults are entertaining, I'd really appreciate some details on why what I said is wrong, if it is


It relies on the examination of micro toolmarks. Wear on mass produced parts occurs differently on items produced in the same factory. The factory tooling wears from production run to production run. This is a difference. The slide of a handgun gets racked and dry fired at the store. This will change wear marks in the gun. The gun goes to the range and gets run. The extractor changes leaving a changed mark on the case. The case has marks from the mag , feeding into the chamber, and the firing pin. These marks change from unit to unit and from year to year, dependent upon condition and use, during the life of the firearm.

Forensic ballistics can be beaten. But most people don't know how.

I'd imagine that polishing of certain surfaces would help quite a bit.

But in this age, who the fuck leaves shell casings on the ground?



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:36:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Overdose:
So is someone going to step forward or do you think they'd grind it to nothing rather than deal with the feds?

even if I was innocent I would melt down any gun I owned that matches the serial number. Fuck that shit.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:43:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By 6winchester2:
I hope they catch the bastard.

And then I hope he receives a full measure of due process, and a fair trial by a jury of his peers.

And if he is found guilty, I hope he gets strapped to that gurney in that green room, and the chemicals are not as "painless" as they say.
+1. I remember reading about that case and the fucker that did that to those two little girls needs to suffer.

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:52:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By victorgonzales:

Originally Posted By Overdose:
So is someone going to step forward or do you think they'd grind it to nothing rather than deal with the feds?

even if I was innocent I would melt down any gun I owned that matches the serial number. Fuck that shit.

I understand not wanting to get involved, but your approach to destroying potential evidence wouldn't do much for the Whitaker and Placker families.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:54:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By Treadhead:

Originally Posted By 6winchester2:
I hope they catch the bastard.

And then I hope he receives a full measure of due process, and a fair trial by a jury of his peers.

And if he is found guilty, I hope he gets strapped to that gurney in that green room, and the chemicals are not as "painless" as they say.
+1. I remember reading about that case and the fucker that did that to those two little girls needs to suffer.



Enough pain can not be inflicted...
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:58:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
The shell casing that comes with the gun?


What states require these to be turned in?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 2:07:42 AM EST
Hmm...
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