why did 8 guys get killed in a hot lz.and they had no air cover .Chinooks first gun ships later , dont sound right to me.

they were placing survailence equipment. kind of hard to sneak into an area and place equipment if you shoot the place up first...

last time I was on/near a 'shithook' they were the last thing from anything remotely related to "stealthy"!  

They were MH-47's which are armed with mini-guns and armored.

The first on was on a recon mission, when it was hit.

The second one was sent in to recover the crew member that was "blown" out of the first one.

My guess is that the 47's have a much longer range than gunships, although I can't recall any gunships being in the area.......MH-47's are also capable of mid-air refueling.

71dl, you are right. A shithook doesn't sneak very well but this is what gen Tommy F. said in his breif after the incedent. He also said the shithooks were used because of the altitude and the load caused restrictions on the type of chopper used...pat

I think there are issues with the AH-64. It is manpower and equipment intensive to keep flying. It's not just airlifting the Apache's in (note PC incorrect name) it's the 2 gazillion pounds of equipt needed to keep them operational. (USMC should consider this every time the say Osprey).

The other issue is it is winter and the were in mountainous terrain, 10,000 ft alt. IIRC. The altitud and the weather means that a helicopter would have less lift available. A cargo helicopter has more lift in "reserve" so it would remain closer to regular flying capability than a go fast high speed low drag, less lift to spare copter.

We were talking about this at work today -  one question was how many guys were they carrying, and is it quicker to have several small choppers or one big one if it's for more than a dozen or two troops?

There are pleanty of AH-64's working this.  

The LZ was not supposed to hot. The MH-47's were trying to insert recon teams, they always do that without escort since a recon team isnt supposed to fight its way into anywhere.  If they knew the LZ was occupied they never would have chosen it for a insertion point. The Chinooks were being used because the MH-60 Blackhawks wont handle the altitude AND carry a full team.

We are also using CH-47D Chinooks to do the regular assault work the UH-60's normally do. They brought in all the 101st guys. It seems that 100% of all transport and resupply tasks are being flown by Chinooks. They had pleanty of Apachies covering them. Also 5 AH-1W's from the Marines.

There are no Kiowas or MH-6 Little Birds in this fight either because of altitude and ice problems. Predator RPV's are trying to fill in for the Kiowas as scouts.  The 101st is sorely missing the new Comanchies, which Clinton delayed

MV-22 Ospreys are supposed to be doing this kind of work, the MH-47E was only created after the Osprey was cancelled the first time and is only intended to be a stop gap. Ospreys are not bothered by this kind of altitude because their big wing unloads their rotors the moment they start moving forward. And when they flair for landing they are in ground effect, which the big wing also helps capture. And they can also fly high enough that the KC-130's don't have to worry about crashing into a mountain while trying to fuel them.

If there is any blame to be assigned on our side- and I dont know there is since this was primarily a intelligance failure and reconissance in this area is going to be limited no matter what. The people to blame are Bill Clinton for delaying the RAH-66 program, since they are quiet enough to accompany special forces insertions and Dick Cheney for cancelling the Osprey. It would have been in service in 97' if he hadn't they wouldnt have been using a tarted up overworked flying bus to try and put these people in.

Maybe I can shed some light to what the real world is like in an Air Assault mission.  I spent 6 years flying helicopters in the Army, including the 101st (which shares the airfield at Campbell with the 160th) and have served with many of the 160th folks.

When you do an operation like that, like inserting LRSD (or LRRP for you old guys), or anything like that, you use as few aircraft as possible.  You take all the information you can get, figure out where the best place is to land (actually the ground guys pretty much choose that within reason) and the best way to get there.  Any recon unit is toast if they are compromised.  If any get out alive, it's pure luck.  You sneak in with a couple of ships (depending one what the team is) and drop them off.  Later you sneak back in to a different place and pick them up.  Hopefully just as quietly.  If you take fire on the insertion, there's no reason to continue.  If you're dropping off a recon team into a hot LZ, you've just killed those guys as sure as you've pulled the trigger yourself.  

The days of shooting up "hot LZ's" with gunships and landing huge forces in the middle of a hail of gunfire went the same direction as the USMC and defended beach assaults.  Yeah, you can do it, but generally there's a smarter way.

As far as the Chinook goes, it can be flown just as fast, low and "tactical" as any of the helicopters the Army operates.  Just because it's the size of a school bus doesn't mean it handles like one.  It's still one of the fastest helicopters we have.  It has the best capability for high alttitude, and heavy loads.  Don't let it's size fool you, it's just as responsive as any of the others.  It's large size limits where you can fit it, but that's part of the planning process.  

As for the 160th needing Apaches, that's like saying Delta needs tanks.  

The bottom line is this was a normal operation, executed in a normal way.  There's no guarantee that the LZ would be cold, or that in war the bad guys will not be where you don't want them.  

Ross

Armdlbrl, My point with the AH-64's and Osprey's wasn't that they are incapable of completing missions. They are, and they are very capable aircraft. But in order to get and keep them flying they require signifigant logistical support.

If you can only send a certain amount of people/equipment to complete a mission you would probably take the aircraft that require the fewest support personnel and facilities to keep flying.

Somebody forgot to tell the ragheads, evidently.

I would second that, you would have to assume everything is hot since you are fighting a guerilla war.  And as we all found out you can't keep track of every one of them.   I have seen AH-64 Apaches do loops , barrel roles , aileron roles.  I know that aircraft has enough lift; at least to provide cover.

Benjamin

The Chinooks have better lift at the high altitudes.  In war time you have to use what you got, and react to whatever the enemy is doing.  In WWII the US sent little Sherman tanks after Tiger and Panther tanks.  Have to use what you have and beat the other guys.

GunLvr

Armchair quarterbacks [:D]

Man, I didn't know Apaches had ailerons![:D]  I guess I musta missed that part of the AH-64 class during the phase one of the Maintenance Test Pilot course.  Just funnin' ya.  I do understand what you ment, even if it was the wrong term[;)]

The AH-64 does have more than enough power to be used, and it is being used since every one of them returned shot up but still flying.  It has a 10,000ft hover capability.  You can just "drop a box" with the computer, and the computer will keep the aircraft hovering within that square without you touching the controls.  

As for bringing a gunship with you, that's one more aircraft to be spotted, and compromise the mission.  Remember, if you hit a hot LZ on a recon insertion, you abort..or kill everyone you drop off.  Firing up a hot LZ where one aircraft has already taken fire and evacuated is just risking the gunship since you have already aborted and hauled ass outa there.

Additionally, attack helicopters are at a premium when shooting is going on.  They are the artillery support for the whole shebang in this one.  You have X number of guns, Y number of crews, and Z number of hours because of maintenance.  You have A number of missions, B number of targets that are already presented, and C number of ammo and fuel per hour that gets used.  It all works out to how much time the gunships have available to kill people.  Generally, the gun guys are pretty busy smoking badguys in response to Infantry requirements.  To send a gun team  with a two ship insertion lift is a mismanagment of available resources.  It increases the likelyhood of detection, even if no enemy action is detected, and therefore risks the lives of the troops you're inserting, and is increasing the risk to both the lift and gun assets during the ingress and egress portion.  

A similar analogy would be to bring a rifle platoon with a 6 man recon team to provide security.  Extra strap hangers just complicate things.  

Being in war is a risky business without gaurentees.

Ross