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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:21:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
After 13 pages and over 16,500 views on the biggest gun board on the interwebs (and no end in sight), I sincerely hope this unholy union is worth it. I, like many other gun owners that will see this statement, am glad to finally know exactly where the owner of Troy Industries stands when it comes to the defense of cold blooded JBT murder. I had reserved judgment on the whole Troy fiasco, as many times rumors turn out to be just that - baseless rumors. Thank you Steve Troy for removing all doubt to your judgment, integrity, and moral character. Rumor has become fact. The horrific tragedy and shocking abuse of lethal force used at Ruby Ridge is burned into the memories of Americans, and you have just hung that disgusting albatross around your neck with arrogant pride. Your shameful "hit and run" statement to start this thread and refusal to reply to even one question from the owners of Troy products here lets me know that you have no problem pissing in the face of your customers and the gun community at large. I can promise you that from now on not only will I not buy any of your products, I will do my very best to educate others to do the same. It won't be hard, and I'm going to enjoy every sale I can cost you. Before long Troy will be known as "The Ruby Ridge Guys". So if you think it was funny to step in here and drop that weak ass fart bomb of an justification statement and run off - keep laughing as you remember the ones working to cost you business. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Steve Troy:
I weighed carefully the decision whether or not to retain Dale and could find no ethical or moral reason to remove him. After 13 pages and over 16,500 views on the biggest gun board on the interwebs (and no end in sight), I sincerely hope this unholy union is worth it. I, like many other gun owners that will see this statement, am glad to finally know exactly where the owner of Troy Industries stands when it comes to the defense of cold blooded JBT murder. I had reserved judgment on the whole Troy fiasco, as many times rumors turn out to be just that - baseless rumors. Thank you Steve Troy for removing all doubt to your judgment, integrity, and moral character. Rumor has become fact. The horrific tragedy and shocking abuse of lethal force used at Ruby Ridge is burned into the memories of Americans, and you have just hung that disgusting albatross around your neck with arrogant pride. Your shameful "hit and run" statement to start this thread and refusal to reply to even one question from the owners of Troy products here lets me know that you have no problem pissing in the face of your customers and the gun community at large. I can promise you that from now on not only will I not buy any of your products, I will do my very best to educate others to do the same. It won't be hard, and I'm going to enjoy every sale I can cost you. Before long Troy will be known as "The Ruby Ridge Guys". So if you think it was funny to step in here and drop that weak ass fart bomb of an justification statement and run off - keep laughing as you remember the ones working to cost you business. Epic. 10/10. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:22:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For all the talk in here, this crap still continues as being acceptable. The guy never said he would shoot an unarmed woman and in fact said he would not take a shot, under any circumstance, if it endangered the children. It's one thing to be upset and against this, but it is another to spout of inaccurate information to make your point.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"Historical views of one of their instructors.."???!!! WTF man? Have you no ability to comprehend what you read? Monroe was there and testified before congress that the only reason he didn't kill Vicki Weaver, an unarmed American holding her 10 month old infant, was that Horiuchi touched her off before he could. And Troy Industries defends that sack of shit. Think about that. For all the talk in here, this crap still continues as being acceptable. The guy never said he would shoot an unarmed woman and in fact said he would not take a shot, under any circumstance, if it endangered the children. It's one thing to be upset and against this, but it is another to spout of inaccurate information to make your point. It does not explain his lack of concern about the taunting of Vicki's family once it was known that she had been shot and killed...by his partner. If I had watched my partner 'miss' a shot that killed a woman (blowing off part of her face and leaving her moaning in front of her children) and then saw my co-workers taunting, harassing and cruelly jeering about it to the victim's family, I would have handed them my rifle, my badge and spit on their uniform. What did Dale Monroe do instead? Defend, support and justify. No matter what his decision was 'in the heat of the moment' or while he 'was just following orders' his actions after the fact speak volumes about his character, and the character of those who would support and defend him and his ilk. At no point in time is it legal to 'miss' a target and kill a by stander. I would bet any amount of money that Dale and Lon were among those jeering and taunting the family about that 'accidental' shooting. They have certainly spent two decades now patting each other on the backs for their actions. Troy is a stain on this website. TRG |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:24:30 AM EDT
[#3]
Man..........talk about stepping on your dick.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:24:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It does not explain his lack of concern about the taunting of Vicki's family once it was known that she had been shot and killed...by his partner. If I had watched my partner 'miss' a shot that killed a woman (blowing off part of her face and leaving her moaning in front of her children) and then saw my co-workers taunting, harassing and cruelly jeering about it to the victim's family, I would have handed them my rifle, my badge and spit on their uniform. What did Dale Monroe do instead? Defend, support and justify. No matter what his decision was 'in the heat of the moment' or while he 'was just following orders' his actions after the fact speak volumes about his character, and the character of those who would support and defend him and his ilk. At no point in time is it legal to 'miss' a target and kill a by stander. I would bet any amount of money that Dale and Lon were among those jeering and taunting the family about that 'accidental' shooting. They have certainly spent two decades now patting each other on the backs for their actions. Troy is a stain on this website. TRG Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Historical views of one of their instructors.."???!!! WTF man? Have you no ability to comprehend what you read? Monroe was there and testified before congress that the only reason he didn't kill Vicki Weaver, an unarmed American holding her 10 month old infant, was that Horiuchi touched her off before he could. And Troy Industries defends that sack of shit. Think about that. For all the talk in here, this crap still continues as being acceptable. The guy never said he would shoot an unarmed woman and in fact said he would not take a shot, under any circumstance, if it endangered the children. It's one thing to be upset and against this, but it is another to spout of inaccurate information to make your point. It does not explain his lack of concern about the taunting of Vicki's family once it was known that she had been shot and killed...by his partner. If I had watched my partner 'miss' a shot that killed a woman (blowing off part of her face and leaving her moaning in front of her children) and then saw my co-workers taunting, harassing and cruelly jeering about it to the victim's family, I would have handed them my rifle, my badge and spit on their uniform. What did Dale Monroe do instead? Defend, support and justify. No matter what his decision was 'in the heat of the moment' or while he 'was just following orders' his actions after the fact speak volumes about his character, and the character of those who would support and defend him and his ilk. At no point in time is it legal to 'miss' a target and kill a by stander. I would bet any amount of money that Dale and Lon were among those jeering and taunting the family about that 'accidental' shooting. They have certainly spent two decades now patting each other on the backs for their actions. Troy is a stain on this website. TRG Once again TRG is right. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:28:52 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Excellent response, I agree 100%. I have purchased 3 Troy products in the past for myself and family members and will not in the future. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So, you really think that hiring someone who's only admitted barrier between shooting, or not shooting, a woman holding a baby was reaction time? You believe that a person who agrees with, supports and defends, the unlawful shooting a woman, with a baby in her arms, as 'an accident' that was the result of attempting to shoot a man in the back is someone'(who was mis-identified and running away) upon whom you lay a wreath of superiority and decision making skills on par with the necessary vision for excellence in decision making skills in crisis situations? That is the level of exceptional integrity and force of character that you feel represents your company and personal view of gun ownership? That person carries the same depth of character to defend the Constitution as those 'who have taken the same oath' as you? Tell us, Steve, do you realize that this says about your own integrity, morality, and decision making skills? Dale supports, defends and holds harmless Lon Horiuchi. You support, defend and hold harmless Dale's support of Lon Horiuchi. Therefore, you support, defend, and hold harmless Lon Horichi. You should be ashamed of yourself. TRG I know this was back on pg 4 but I'm playing catch up from last night. TRG I agree 100%. A well written and thought out response. Thanks, man. TRG Excellent response, I agree 100%. I have purchased 3 Troy products in the past for myself and family members and will not in the future. TheRedGoat's post really nails it. I "only" owned about $1k worth of Troy products prior to this, which may not be much but it's still a decent amount of change from one person. I now own $0 worth, having sold most of it and thrown away the rest. I will never, ever own another product with that label. But at least you will still have Dale. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:29:27 AM EDT
[#6]
No more Troy products for me. Support of this individual by Steve is utterly beyond the pale. Larue and MWI etc products from here on out. I will remove his products from my items immediately.
Actions have consequences Steve. You have no idea how many of your products I had plans to purchase. *shakes head and walks away. 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:29:34 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So Lon could never be forgiven, but his partner can be forgiven? The same man that stands up and says he would have taken the shot? Despicable. Pretty much my thoughts too.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:30:33 AM EDT
[#8]
Is their video or officiàl written testimony where Monroe admits to wanting to murder these people? I didn't read every page so if there is can someone link it.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:31:28 AM EDT
[#9]
TheRedGoat's post really nails it. Pretty much. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:32:33 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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So, here's a brief synopsis of Ruby Ridge for the unaware: ATF guy undercover: "Hey Randy, can you shorten a shotgun for me?" Weaver: "Sure, but I can't cut it under 18". Here you go." ATD guy undercover: "HAHA! BUSTED, MOTHERFUCKER! IT'S UNDER 26" OVERALL! BURN!!!" Weaver: "WTF?" ATF: "We can make this go away if you join the Aryan Nations group down the road and spy on them for us..." Weaver: "Fuck you." *Weaver arrested, charged with gun crimes* *court sends wrong court date to Weaver, so Weaver didn't show up for court* Judge: "Arrest Weaver for Failure To Appear." USMS: "Ok." Someone: "Hey Judge, we sent Weaver the wrong court date. You should stop the warrant." Judge: "Fuck him. No way." USMS: "Well, we should wait & see if he shows up first, and if not we'll go get him." US District Attorney: "Fuck him. Go get him now." USMS: "Ok." Geraldo Rivera: "HEY EVERYONE! LOOK At ME! THE WEAVERS SHOT AT ME!!!!" Media: "The Weavers shot at a media chopper." USMS: "No they didn't, but let's say they did anyway because fuck him, that's why. * US Marshals, dressed in camo hiding on Weaver property, shoot Weaver's son's dog, firefight ensues killing Weaver's son & a USMS Marshal* *Rules Of Engagement created* Lon & Dale: "SWEET! WE CAN SHOOT EVERYBODY ALL UP IN THIS BITCH! WOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!" Other cops: "WTF???????" Lon: *BANG* = dead unarmed woman holding a baby Dale: "Good shoot, bro. I totally woulda shot her in her fucking face but you did it first. Jerk." Lon: "Well, off to Waco. Gotta get some more face-shooting time in." Dale: "Later. I'll tell congress you were totally righteous!" Troy: "Hey Dale, want a job?" http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/citizen_cane.gif Most deserved /slowclap ever. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:33:07 AM EDT
[#11]
I'm just point out inaccurate information. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so vent away. But if you want to be pissed, be pissed for the right reasons. A lot of people have stated their case very well in the course of this thread and not resorted to information which wasn't accurate and even some of you guys have corrected some of the false stuff, which is good to see.
Ruby Ridge was a nightmare situation 20 years ago. It's a shame we have had to open up a wound, but it's good people here learn from the lessons of the past. It would be ignorant to say it wont happen again, especially with the way things are today. Either way, it's up to each individual to decide what they should do and everyone else to respect that decision. The one thing we value more than the left is the fact that we can have differing opinions and not be forced into one "right" one. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:34:19 AM EDT
[#12]
Steve "The Scorpion" Troy will never see another dime of my money.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:34:39 AM EDT
[#13]
Tag for later.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:35:27 AM EDT
[#14]
Guys, I'm going to be honest here, and make a suggestion.
In light of the BS that Troy stands for now, there is something that can be done where the effects will be felt at Troy financially, even more than simply so many of us not buying new products, and that is, to flood the market with all of our used Troy products. If the market is flooded with Troy products, then the market for new stuff will be be greatly diminished. Each used sale creates a loss of new sale. Troy doesn't make a dime on the product since it's used, but, they will be liable for warranty repairs in many cases. If you have friends that are building something new, and want good quality but can't spend the cash, sell them your used Troy goods at a discount. Get a hand written receipt from your buddy that just shows you sold one of their products, with your name, and the reason you sold it, and put it in an envelope and mail it in to Troy. Then, whatever you were going to buy new that Troy would have been an option for, buy something from a competitor, and send a copy of the receipt , with you name, and why you didn't buy Troy. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:35:42 AM EDT
[#15]
For all you young guys who don't know much about Ruby Ridge it would be as bad, or probably worse, as a firearms company hiring Agent Newell of the ATF.
He was the guy who led the ground operations in F&F. A total lying fucking douche bag IMHO. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:36:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Is there any doubt the lesson learned from Ruby Ridge is to never leave survivors?
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:37:44 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This deserves to be repeated. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/15.html As Kevin Harris made his way through the doorway, Horiuchi placed the cross hairs of his rifle's scope on the edge of the door and fired a second shot. The bullet penetrated the door window, passed through Vicki Weaver's head and struck Kevin Harris in the left arm and chest. The bullet had miraculously missed baby Elisheba. Vicki Weaver fell to her knees, still holding her baby, and cried out in agony for approximately 30 seconds before slumping to the floor and succumbing to her fatal injury. The psychological warfare became even worse the following day. "Good morning Mrs. Weaver," Fred Lanceley, an FBI negotiator, called out. "We had pancakes this morning. And what did you have for breakfast? Why don't you send your children out for some pancakes, Mrs. Weaver?" Following the statements made by the negotiator, the whole family began sobbing loudly. The phone, which had been placed outside the cabin door, rang continuously every 15 minutes as the negotiator continued yelling through the bull horn, at times stating that if they failed to come out, they were all going to die. This deserves to be repeated. Yes indeed. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:38:25 AM EDT
[#18]
To those of you much better than me at expressing outrage with tbis situation, thank you.
My only Troy product was a rear BUIS. I loved it, but it will be my last. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:39:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Not sure what to think about all this.
Steve Troy seems like a good leader. He's standing behind his decisions, his staff, and his company. I respect that. At the same time, what happened at Ruby Ridge is unforgivable. However small Monroe's role in that event, if he still supports the government's actions that day... that would make him toxic to any company. I suspect Troy is in a much better position to judge the potential impact on his company than anyone in Arfcom GD. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:39:51 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is their video or officiàl written testimony where Monroe admits to wanting to murder these people? I didn't read every page so if there is can someone link it. There is written and video record of him saying he felt the ROE and second shot were both constitutional. He does not say he wanted to murder people. He was a willing party and defender of the man who promulgated the illegal ROE. That he didn't take a shot because he didn't have a clear view does not make him exculpable. All that means is that he followed one of the 4 rules of gun safety. He did not pull the trigger, but he most assuredly supported the act and testified before the Senate to that. He was found, repeatedly, to be cheerleading the team on the wrong side of the law of the land. And Troy hired him to train primarily Law Enforcement and military. Despite Troy's vague assertion that Monroe is trying to teach how to keep that from happening again, neither Troy nor Monroe appear to have any published material supporting them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:39:54 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guys, I'm going to be honest here, and make a suggestion. In light of the BS that Troy stands for now, there is something that can be done where the effects will be felt at Troy financially, even more than simply so many of us not buying new products, and that is, to flood the market with all of our used Troy products. If the market is flooded with Troy products, then the market for new stuff will be be greatly diminished. Each used sale creates a loss of new sale. Troy doesn't make a dime on the product since it's used, but, they will be liable for warranty repairs in many cases. If you have friends that are building something new, and want good quality but can't spend the cash, sell them your used Troy goods at a discount. Get a hand written receipt from your buddy that just shows you sold one of their products, with your name, and the reason you sold it, and put it in an envelope and mail it in to Troy. Then, whatever you were going to buy new that Troy would have been an option for, buy something from a competitor, and send a copy of the receipt , with you name, and why you didn't buy Troy. damn, that is a cold, but effective plan |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:41:11 AM EDT
[#22]
No thanks
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:44:14 AM EDT
[#23]
Just catching up....but consider me a "former" Troy user as well. TRG has summed up my feelings more eloquently than I am able, so I won't add anything in that regards. However, I would like to see the usual America loving patriot sponsors immediately drop all Troy products from their websites (Calling Mr. Larue).
The defense of Monroe is utterly disgusting and flies in the face of the original American values that founded this country. ETA- holee shit it's been awhile since I've logged on. BRB |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:44:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guys, I'm going to be honest here, and make a suggestion. In light of the BS that Troy stands for now, there is something that can be done where the effects will be felt at Troy financially, even more than simply so many of us not buying new products, and that is, to flood the market with all of our used Troy products. If the market is flooded with Troy products, then the market for new stuff will be be greatly diminished. Each used sale creates a loss of new sale. Troy doesn't make a dime on the product since it's used, but, they will be liable for warranty repairs in many cases. If you have friends that are building something new, and want good quality but can't spend the cash, sell them your used Troy goods at a discount. Get a hand written receipt from your buddy that just shows you sold one of their products, with your name, and the reason you sold it, and put it in an envelope and mail it in to Troy. Then, whatever you were going to buy new that Troy would have been an option for, buy something from a competitor, and send a copy of the receipt , with you name, and why you didn't buy Troy. That's "Mean Girls" level devious right there man. 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:45:03 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is written and video record of him saying he felt the ROE and second shot were both constitutional. He does not say he wanted to murder people. He was a willing party and defender of the man who promulgated the illegal ROE. That he didn't take a shot because he didn't have a clear view does not make him exculpable. All that means is that he followed one of the 4 rules of gun safety. He did not pull the trigger, but he most assuredly supported the act and testified before the Senate to that. He was found, repeatedly, to be cheerleading the team on the wrong side of the law of the land. And Troy hired him to train primarily Law Enforcement and military. Despite Troy's vague assertion that Monroe is trying to teach how to keep that from happening again, neither Troy nor Monroe appear to have any published material supporting them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is their video or officiàl written testimony where Monroe admits to wanting to murder these people? I didn't read every page so if there is can someone link it. There is written and video record of him saying he felt the ROE and second shot were both constitutional. He does not say he wanted to murder people. He was a willing party and defender of the man who promulgated the illegal ROE. That he didn't take a shot because he didn't have a clear view does not make him exculpable. All that means is that he followed one of the 4 rules of gun safety. He did not pull the trigger, but he most assuredly supported the act and testified before the Senate to that. He was found, repeatedly, to be cheerleading the team on the wrong side of the law of the land. And Troy hired him to train primarily Law Enforcement and military. Despite Troy's vague assertion that Monroe is trying to teach how to keep that from happening again, neither Troy nor Monroe appear to have any published material supporting them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile One you defend the actions of blowing a woman's face off and shooting people in the back- your entire argument kind of goes down hill. Troy, you are stupid for even allowing this in your house but as such, you'll reap what you have sewn. RR77 |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:45:09 AM EDT
[#26]
I respect Steve Troy for making his decision and (finally) making a statement, I hope Troy can respect my decision to say "FUCK TROY", I only own one piece of Troy equipment (an Alpha rail) but I will NEVER buy another piece with his name on it as long as he employs a true JBT.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is there any doubt the lesson learned from Ruby Ridge is to never leave survivors? The government "learned" its lesson, see Waco. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:45:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is written and video record of him saying he felt the ROE and second shot were both constitutional. He does not say he wanted to murder people. He was a willing party and defender of the man who promulgated the illegal ROE. That he didn't take a shot because he didn't have a clear view does not make him exculpable. All that means is that he followed one of the 4 rules of gun safety. He did not pull the trigger, but he most assuredly supported the act and testified before the Senate to that. He was found, repeatedly, to be cheerleading the team on the wrong side of the law of the land. And Troy hired him to train primarily Law Enforcement and military. Despite Troy's vague assertion that Monroe is trying to teach how to keep that from happening again, neither Troy nor Monroe appear to have any published material supporting them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is their video or officiàl written testimony where Monroe admits to wanting to murder these people? I didn't read every page so if there is can someone link it. There is written and video record of him saying he felt the ROE and second shot were both constitutional. He does not say he wanted to murder people. He was a willing party and defender of the man who promulgated the illegal ROE. That he didn't take a shot because he didn't have a clear view does not make him exculpable. All that means is that he followed one of the 4 rules of gun safety. He did not pull the trigger, but he most assuredly supported the act and testified before the Senate to that. He was found, repeatedly, to be cheerleading the team on the wrong side of the law of the land. And Troy hired him to train primarily Law Enforcement and military. Despite Troy's vague assertion that Monroe is trying to teach how to keep that from happening again, neither Troy nor Monroe appear to have any published material supporting them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm confused I thought the std answer is at least he made it home safe. We read every day about innocent people being shot for not complying why is this different? |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:45:34 AM EDT
[#28]
I remember rr and will never forget it. I'm even educating people I work with about it since a lot if people simply have no clue.
No more Troy for me |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:45:34 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're such an amiable fellow. Is everyone from Idaho like this? I think I know a thing or two about rule of law and due process. I used to have to meet with the saranwal once a week to try to get him to actually charge people that were arrested. A country without the rule of law is chaos. I think you feel like the FBI transgressed against the rule of law, whereas I feel like the Weavers did. I do feel like I'm failing to convey how very, very little I care about the whole situation though. IIRC an FBI agent shot and killed Ibragim Todashev in his own apartment, as soon as the local cops left him alone with him. And you don't see people here up in arms about that... Not that I'm saying they should, but if you're going to get pissy about the FBI schwacking people, you could pick something more current...Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The part in bold was my point entirely. Don't consort with white supremacist groups, deal in sawed off shotguns and ignore court dates and you won't have to worry about what he's teaching mil/LE at Troy Asymmetric. Everyone in this country, even you, is a mere simple majority and pen stroke away from being declared a felon. Don't ignore rule of law, because it is intended to protect everyone from people like you who cannot understand due process. You're such an amiable fellow. Is everyone from Idaho like this? I think I know a thing or two about rule of law and due process. I used to have to meet with the saranwal once a week to try to get him to actually charge people that were arrested. A country without the rule of law is chaos. I think you feel like the FBI transgressed against the rule of law, whereas I feel like the Weavers did. I do feel like I'm failing to convey how very, very little I care about the whole situation though. IIRC an FBI agent shot and killed Ibragim Todashev in his own apartment, as soon as the local cops left him alone with him. And you don't see people here up in arms about that... Not that I'm saying they should, but if you're going to get pissy about the FBI schwacking people, you could pick something more current...You twisted the facts about Todashev. The account of the shooting supported the agent's actions, and members of this site questioned the incident on the day it happened. Here is the C-Span video of Dale Monroe testifying before the U.S. Senate. Skip to 50:00 to get to the part where Monroe says that he will obey a shoot order from the FBI even after the head of the FBI said the order was illegal and unconstitutional. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/67153-1 Quoted:
He was backing up his partner, just like the HRT Commander backed them up. They were playing by the rules given. The HRT does not get to make new laws that trump the U.S. Constitution. That seems to be the key to your misunderstanding. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:46:49 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm confused I thought the std answere is at least he made it home safe. We read every day about innocent people being shot for not complying why is this different? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is their video or officiàl written testimony where Monroe admits to wanting to murder these people? I didn't read every page so if there is can someone link it. There is written and video record of him saying he felt the ROE and second shot were both constitutional. He does not say he wanted to murder people. He was a willing party and defender of the man who promulgated the illegal ROE. That he didn't take a shot because he didn't have a clear view does not make him exculpable. All that means is that he followed one of the 4 rules of gun safety. He did not pull the trigger, but he most assuredly supported the act and testified before the Senate to that. He was found, repeatedly, to be cheerleading the team on the wrong side of the law of the land. And Troy hired him to train primarily Law Enforcement and military. Despite Troy's vague assertion that Monroe is trying to teach how to keep that from happening again, neither Troy nor Monroe appear to have any published material supporting them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm confused I thought the std answere is at least he made it home safe. We read every day about innocent people being shot for not complying why is this different? You don't know much about ruby ridge do you.... |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:47:10 AM EDT
[#31]
Done with Troy. I will not even buy used off EE, their stock just crashed IMO.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:47:20 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is there any doubt the lesson learned from Ruby Ridge is to never leave survivors? 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:47:42 AM EDT
[#33]
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You don't know much about ruby ridge do you.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is their video or officiàl written testimony where Monroe admits to wanting to murder these people? I didn't read every page so if there is can someone link it. There is written and video record of him saying he felt the ROE and second shot were both constitutional. He does not say he wanted to murder people. He was a willing party and defender of the man who promulgated the illegal ROE. That he didn't take a shot because he didn't have a clear view does not make him exculpable. All that means is that he followed one of the 4 rules of gun safety. He did not pull the trigger, but he most assuredly supported the act and testified before the Senate to that. He was found, repeatedly, to be cheerleading the team on the wrong side of the law of the land. And Troy hired him to train primarily Law Enforcement and military. Despite Troy's vague assertion that Monroe is trying to teach how to keep that from happening again, neither Troy nor Monroe appear to have any published material supporting them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm confused I thought the std answere is at least he made it home safe. We read every day about innocent people being shot for not complying why is this different? You don't know much about ruby ridge do you.... I remember it. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:48:36 AM EDT
[#34]
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Either way, it's up to each individual to decide what they should do and everyone else to respect that decision. The one thing we value more than the left is the fact that we can have differing opinions and not be forced into one "right" one. I "respect" Troy's decision in the free market sense, meaning they can choose to hire a scumbag murdering JBT, but I don't have to "respect" it as though they are somehow beyond reproach because they are a manufacturer of firearm components. Meanwhile, it really strains your use of the word respect when we are discussing that manufacturer's approval and endorsement of Ruby Ridge participants - a sniper, no less. I'm sure you meant well and wanted to turn the heat down on an IP but honestly, there is no excuse for the stance Troy has taken. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:50:21 AM EDT
[#35]
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I remember it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is their video or officiàl written testimony where Monroe admits to wanting to murder these people? I didn't read every page so if there is can someone link it. There is written and video record of him saying he felt the ROE and second shot were both constitutional. He does not say he wanted to murder people. He was a willing party and defender of the man who promulgated the illegal ROE. That he didn't take a shot because he didn't have a clear view does not make him exculpable. All that means is that he followed one of the 4 rules of gun safety. He did not pull the trigger, but he most assuredly supported the act and testified before the Senate to that. He was found, repeatedly, to be cheerleading the team on the wrong side of the law of the land. And Troy hired him to train primarily Law Enforcement and military. Despite Troy's vague assertion that Monroe is trying to teach how to keep that from happening again, neither Troy nor Monroe appear to have any published material supporting them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm confused I thought the std answere is at least he made it home safe. We read every day about innocent people being shot for not complying why is this different? You don't know much about ruby ridge do you.... I remember it. But are you aware of the circumstances of the assault and killing of Vicki weaver ? |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:51:03 AM EDT
[#36]
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Not sure what to think about all this. Steve Troy seems like a good leader. He's standing behind his decisions, his staff, and his company. I respect that. At the same time, what happened at Ruby Ridge is unforgivable. However small Monroe's role in that event, if he still supports the government's actions that day... that would make him toxic to any company. I suspect Troy is in a much better position to judge the potential impact on his company than anyone in Arfcom GD. I don't think this makes Steve Troy look like a good leader. A good leader would take time to answer questions, rather than posting a drive-by comment. A good leader doesn't blindly defend employees. He substantiates his position with evidence and reason, not dismissal of his customers as not being able to understand. A good leader is transparent. He doesn't claim that he has no control over part of a company, then turn around and defend his decision to keep someone employed. That second statement affirms his control, proving himself to be untruthful in what he told Goatboy. A good leader, especially one who claims such support of citizen customers and the Second Amendment, should be expected to know that there are some people who are anathema to that cause. A good leader would recognize the consumer support he had after being treated poorly by a major retailer. He would consider that when making strategic decisions that would alienate that consumer base. I think this makes Steve Troy look disingenuous, dismissive, placing personal friendship and his profit over the ethics he so loudly proclaimed. His claims ring hollow in the face of his own actions. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:51:13 AM EDT
[#37]
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If arfcom bandwagon boycotts actually worked, there wouldn't be a single gun/gun accessory manufacturer/dealer left in business. I'll bet this you will never see this type of crap from Larue Tactical. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:52:58 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For all the talk in here, this crap still continues as being acceptable. The guy never said he would shoot an unarmed woman and in fact said he would not take a shot, under any circumstance, if it endangered the children. It's one thing to be upset and against this, but it is another to spout of inaccurate information to make your point. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "Historical views of one of their instructors.."???!!! WTF man? Have you no ability to comprehend what you read? Monroe was there and testified before congress that the only reason he didn't kill Vicki Weaver, an unarmed American holding her 10 month old infant, was that Horiuchi touched her off before he could. And Troy Industries defends that sack of shit. Think about that. For all the talk in here, this crap still continues as being acceptable. The guy never said he would shoot an unarmed woman and in fact said he would not take a shot, under any circumstance, if it endangered the children. It's one thing to be upset and against this, but it is another to spout of inaccurate information to make your point. But he would kill someone over a few inches of metal, so that makes it OK? Fuck that. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:53:25 AM EDT
[#39]
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damn, that is a cold, but effective plan Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Guys, I'm going to be honest here, and make a suggestion. In light of the BS that Troy stands for now, there is something that can be done where the effects will be felt at Troy financially, even more than simply so many of us not buying new products, and that is, to flood the market with all of our used Troy products. If the market is flooded with Troy products, then the market for new stuff will be be greatly diminished. Each used sale creates a loss of new sale. Troy doesn't make a dime on the product since it's used, but, they will be liable for warranty repairs in many cases. If you have friends that are building something new, and want good quality but can't spend the cash, sell them your used Troy goods at a discount. Get a hand written receipt from your buddy that just shows you sold one of their products, with your name, and the reason you sold it, and put it in an envelope and mail it in to Troy. Then, whatever you were going to buy new that Troy would have been an option for, buy something from a competitor, and send a copy of the receipt , with you name, and why you didn't buy Troy. damn, that is a cold, but effective plan Pavlov is a good dude like that. 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:57:11 AM EDT
[#40]
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So, you really think that hiring someone who's only admitted barrier between shooting, or not shooting, a woman holding a baby was reaction time? You believe that a person who agrees with, supports and defends, the unlawful shooting a woman, with a baby in her arms, as 'an accident' that was the result of attempting to shoot a man in the back is someone'(who was mis-identified and running away) upon whom you lay a wreath of superiority and decision making skills on par with the necessary vision for excellence in decision making skills in crisis situations? That is the level of exceptional integrity and force of character that you feel represents your company and personal view of gun ownership? That person carries the same depth of character to defend the Constitution as those 'who have taken the same oath' as you? Tell us, Steve, do you realize that this says about your own integrity, morality, and decision making skills? Dale supports, defends and holds harmless Lon Horiuchi. You support, defend and hold harmless Dale's support of Lon Horiuchi. Therefore, you support, defend, and hold harmless Lon Horichi. You should be ashamed of yourself. TRG To those that agree with this logical argument (which I do) this begs the question of the continued relationship between AR15.com and Troy Industries. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:58:08 AM EDT
[#41]
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Pavlov is a good dude like that.
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Guys, I'm going to be honest here, and make a suggestion. In light of the BS that Troy stands for now, there is something that can be done where the effects will be felt at Troy financially, even more than simply so many of us not buying new products, and that is, to flood the market with all of our used Troy products. If the market is flooded with Troy products, then the market for new stuff will be be greatly diminished. Each used sale creates a loss of new sale. Troy doesn't make a dime on the product since it's used, but, they will be liable for warranty repairs in many cases. If you have friends that are building something new, and want good quality but can't spend the cash, sell them your used Troy goods at a discount. Get a hand written receipt from your buddy that just shows you sold one of their products, with your name, and the reason you sold it, and put it in an envelope and mail it in to Troy. Then, whatever you were going to buy new that Troy would have been an option for, buy something from a competitor, and send a copy of the receipt , with you name, and why you didn't buy Troy. damn, that is a cold, but effective plan Pavlov is a good dude like that.
He always gets a response. TRG |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:58:37 AM EDT
[#42]
I'm a nobody, but I've been on this site for longer than my Mar 2003 join date shows.
There are some highly respected people here giving rational reasoning for telling Troy to FO. I look for those people's opinion to help rationalize or refute my own choices. I also look to the opposing view to see if i'm jumping to conclusions with my decision. The opposing views in this thread are the usual suspects, who add nothing substantial to the argument other than childish name calling, ironically buy calling their opposers children. I can't help but come to the conclusion that Troy is off my list. I'm not asking them to fire anyone. That won't change anything for me. Many people make business decisions that go against their true beliefs. Apparently Troy's true beliefs are contrary to mine. |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:58:48 AM EDT
[#43]
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I didn't mean to get involved in some sort of Ruby Ridge argument (since I know pretty much nothing about it.) I just don't think that what Troy has done merits the response they're getting. We're all entitled to our opinions though.  You are NOT entitled to an opinion that is based on ignorance. Especially if you're going to be making statements or declarations about the subject matter, here. 
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Posted: 8/27/2013 7:00:20 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Guys, I'm going to be honest here, and make a suggestion. In light of the BS that Troy stands for now, there is something that can be done where the effects will be felt at Troy financially, even more than simply so many of us not buying new products, and that is, to flood the market with all of our used Troy products. If the market is flooded with Troy products, then the market for new stuff will be be greatly diminished. Each used sale creates a loss of new sale. Troy doesn't make a dime on the product since it's used, but, they will be liable for warranty repairs in many cases. If you have friends that are building something new, and want good quality but can't spend the cash, sell them your used Troy goods at a discount. Get a hand written receipt from your buddy that just shows you sold one of their products, with your name, and the reason you sold it, and put it in an envelope and mail it in to Troy. Then, whatever you were going to buy new that Troy would have been an option for, buy something from a competitor, and send a copy of the receipt , with you name, and why you didn't buy Troy. Genius. Needs to be repeated.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 7:01:47 AM EDT
[#45]
It's been so long since I logged on my membership lapsed....wtf is wrong with me. Problem solved....now, time to look at some Samson sites for my current build - fuck you Troy
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Posted: 8/27/2013 7:01:54 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It does not explain his lack of concern about the taunting of Vicki's family once it was known that she had been shot and killed...by his partner. If I had watched my partner 'miss' a shot that killed a woman (blowing off part of her face and leaving her moaning in front of her children) and then saw my co-workers taunting, harassing and cruelly jeering about it to the victim's family, I would have handed them my rifle, my badge and spit on their uniform. What did Dale Monroe do instead? Defend, support and justify. No matter what his decision was 'in the heat of the moment' or while he 'was just following orders' his actions after the fact speak volumes about his character, and the character of those who would support and defend him and his ilk. At no point in time is it legal to 'miss' a target and kill a by stander. I would bet any amount of money that Dale and Lon were among those jeering and taunting the family about that 'accidental' shooting. They have certainly spent two decades now patting each other on the backs for their actions. Troy is a stain on this website. TRG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: "Historical views of one of their instructors.."???!!! WTF man? Have you no ability to comprehend what you read? Monroe was there and testified before congress that the only reason he didn't kill Vicki Weaver, an unarmed American holding her 10 month old infant, was that Horiuchi touched her off before he could. And Troy Industries defends that sack of shit. Think about that. For all the talk in here, this crap still continues as being acceptable. The guy never said he would shoot an unarmed woman and in fact said he would not take a shot, under any circumstance, if it endangered the children. It's one thing to be upset and against this, but it is another to spout of inaccurate information to make your point. It does not explain his lack of concern about the taunting of Vicki's family once it was known that she had been shot and killed...by his partner. If I had watched my partner 'miss' a shot that killed a woman (blowing off part of her face and leaving her moaning in front of her children) and then saw my co-workers taunting, harassing and cruelly jeering about it to the victim's family, I would have handed them my rifle, my badge and spit on their uniform. What did Dale Monroe do instead? Defend, support and justify. No matter what his decision was 'in the heat of the moment' or while he 'was just following orders' his actions after the fact speak volumes about his character, and the character of those who would support and defend him and his ilk. At no point in time is it legal to 'miss' a target and kill a by stander. I would bet any amount of money that Dale and Lon were among those jeering and taunting the family about that 'accidental' shooting. They have certainly spent two decades now patting each other on the backs for their actions. Troy is a stain on this website. TRG 1. Stalk a peaceful family over 1/4" of metal 2. Kill a woman holding an infant 3. Taunt the remaining family 4. Profit Ridiculous. If we said he was being compensated only 300 dollars for each speaking engagement, with 1000s of appearances by Mr Troy's statement, he has earned HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars on this tradgedy. Sickening.
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Posted: 8/27/2013 7:02:24 AM EDT
[#47]
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So, you really think that hiring someone who's only admitted barrier between shooting, or not shooting, a woman holding a baby was reaction time? You believe that a person who agrees with, supports and defends, the unlawful shooting a woman, with a baby in her arms, as 'an accident' that was the result of attempting to shoot a man in the back is someone'(who was mis-identified and running away) upon whom you lay a wreath of superiority and decision making skills on par with the necessary vision for excellence in decision making skills in crisis situations? That is the level of exceptional integrity and force of character that you feel represents your company and personal view of gun ownership? That person carries the same depth of character to defend the Constitution as those 'who have taken the same oath' as you? Tell us, Steve, do you realize that this says about your own integrity, morality, and decision making skills? Dale supports, defends and holds harmless Lon Horiuchi. You support, defend and hold harmless Dale's support of Lon Horiuchi. Therefore, you support, defend, and hold harmless Lon Horichi. You should be ashamed of yourself. TRG /thread I wonder if other vendors here on arfcom will step up and drop Troy from the products they carry and offer for sale...kinda hard to make money when nobody will stock your stuff... |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 7:02:30 AM EDT
[#48]
So one of Troy’s instructors shot and killed someone for being suspected of hoarding to many competitors products, and Troy doesn’t have a problem with that? Is that basically what the issue is (tongue in cheek)? |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 7:02:52 AM EDT
[#49]
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To those that agree with this logical argument (which I do) this begs the question of the continued relationship between AR15.com and Troy Industries. I think doesn't take much effort to review the Troy industry forum, timeline, and locked threads to form a prediction about their relationship with this site. It may be a time-limited contract, but I believe that they will continue their association. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2013 7:03:16 AM EDT
[#50]
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I don't think it's constitutional due to the closure of the machine gun registry. When you pass an excise tax on the trade\commerce of some item as part of the tax code, and then refuse to accept the tax, you've likely exceeded the authority outlined in the constitution by creating a de facto ban. IIRC Rock River Arms won a federal district court case on that argument and the US Attorney chose not to appeal. It was based on a full auto 1911. I'm not a lawyer or anything though. I tend to have a broader view of the scope of government authority beyond strictly what's spelled out in the constitution. Is it a good law? Probably overall, no. But personally the investment value in the 2 machine guns that I have far outweigh any utility I might gain from actually owning\shooting new machineguns if the NFA were to magically disappear. You have to figure there are plenty of people with hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in guns that would be made nearly worthless overnight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Let's just get down to brass tacks, shall we? Do you think the NFA is constitutional and/or good law? I don't think it's constitutional due to the closure of the machine gun registry. When you pass an excise tax on the trade\commerce of some item as part of the tax code, and then refuse to accept the tax, you've likely exceeded the authority outlined in the constitution by creating a de facto ban. IIRC Rock River Arms won a federal district court case on that argument and the US Attorney chose not to appeal. It was based on a full auto 1911. I'm not a lawyer or anything though. I tend to have a broader view of the scope of government authority beyond strictly what's spelled out in the constitution. Is it a good law? Probably overall, no. But personally the investment value in the 2 machine guns that I have far outweigh any utility I might gain from actually owning\shooting new machineguns if the NFA were to magically disappear. You have to figure there are plenty of people with hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in guns that would be made nearly worthless overnight. |
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