[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Torturing Terrorists (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 9/27/2006 9:45:47 AM EDT
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Is anyone besides me sick and tired of hearing the line "well, no one is for torture..." when conservatives are defending President Bush's interrogation program. I would just like to go on record as saying that I am absolutely FOR torturing terrorists. If the CIA wants to torture the terrorists then I say go for it. If the CIA wants to beat these fuckers with rubber hoses, shove bamboo shoots under their finger nails, drug them or whatever, I say go for it. Understand, these aren't men we are talking about. These are the most vicious butchers on the planet. These are people who have earned a reputation for glorifying their god after they have massacred people in the most barbaric ways imaginable...and we have captured them. They have no rights. The only purpose for keeping them alive is so that our intelligence agencies can extract information from them, and once our intelligence agencies have squeezed every drop of information that these bastards have from them, they should be disposed of. So, I am for torturing terrorists and I am tired of hearing that "no one is for torture". |
I'm simply sick to death of the term "torture" being thrown around just as generally and just as erroneously as the term "assault weapon"...  Most of the "torture" hubbub is about stuff that doesn't even come close to actual TORTURE.  ETA: DANG! I've got to learn to type faster... 
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I think you are mistaken. Our servicemen were being tortured and beheaded long before we began anything that could be considered less-than-hospitable to those temporarily in our custody. |
So the two members of the 101st Airborne who were captured by the jihadis in Iraq were mutilated because of water boarding and sleep depravation? Was Daniel Pearl beheaded because terrorists in GTMO were forced to listen to Brittney Spears? If our troops are captured by the jihadis then they are going to die a horrible death at the hands of the jihadis. It has happened multiple times already, and it very well may happen again. No Marine who is captured by the jihadis is going to get a Filet-O-Fish sandwich, a bible and 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep per night. He's going to get decapitated with a butcher knife, regardless of how we treat our prisoners. |
I don't consider water boarding, sleep depravation and being forced to listen to rock music torture. That's a fraternity initiation. If it were to come out that the CIA was drugging, beating, burning terrorists or put them on "The Rack", then I wouldn't even bat an eye. I wouldn't care if they did it for entertainment and weren't even trying to get them to talk when they did it. These pieces of shit have it coming for what they did to us and what they are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
Thing is, that's a dangerous assumption. If they capture anyone they are going to put them in some kind of holding. Does each one of those people need to be tortured? Also, I don't think we really need to go the bamboo-under-the-fingers route, we have effective and non-brutal means to extract information besides that. That stuff I'm A-OK with. We just can't go around touting that we're better than these people and then use their barbarity as an excuse to commit our own. |
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3/8" TiNi drill bit- $1.50 12V Black and Decker Firestorm Drill- $29.99 (perceived value) Electricity to charge said 12V system- $0.12 Drilling into a "suspected" terrorists knee to find out if he's "suspected" or real- Priceless. There is information that money can't buy. For everything else, there's Torture (C) Torture is letting more Americans die when you fully have the means to do the job at hand. You've heard of S-S-S?!! Torture, Shovel, STFU! On with the next "suspected" terrorist. Of course that's just my opinion, yours may differ. |
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I am against the torturing of the enemy by U.S Military personnel , however i am all in favor of "spooks" doing this job just like they did in V.N. They are "spooks" therefore the torture "officially" did not happen , and no U.S Military personnel are subject to the commie lawyers at the ACLU ruining their lives with legal fees ect. for keeping America safe. |
The difference is that they are not American citizens. The are forgein nationals bearing arms against the United States. IMHO they have no Constitutional rights and whatever the government decides to do with them is fine by me. |
+1 That is nothing more than a Democrat talking point......the terrorist's have already shown that they need no excuse to kill or torture....... |
You didn't address my big problem with this - the people being tortured are usually just arrested as suspects without any proof they are terrorists. As for the fact that the terrorists torture our prisoners, I wasn't saying that our actions are directly responsible for that, only pointing out that we're blurring a line we really don't want blurred and that, in the future, torture of US servicemen may be more likely due to our actions. Finally, although you might think that torture is just good clean fun, it's not really that effective at gaining information. If you put my nuts in a vice, I'll tell you I'm Queen Victoria if that's what you want to hear. I guess my big problem with this was when I went through resistance training, I was told that crap like this was only done by third-world shitholes and commbloc countries and that the US adhered to the Geneva Convention and wouldn't treat prisoners like this. |
Half the "spooks" are card carrying ACLU members.....why do you think there are so many leaks? I'm not sure they can be trusted anymore than US military personell.......are you? |
come back and haunt our guys? they are already doing their worst to troops! why do we have to fight with both hands tied behind out back. sleep deprivation is far from being a torture technique. After reading about the ROPers and 2 Arabic culture courses in college(studying the enemy), i have come to realize that the one thing that they really do care about are their families. bring them into the equation and they will sing like a canary. imply the imminent rape of his sisters, mother and FATHER.. i bet that method would have a 99% success rate. take away their honor or imply that it will be taken and they will cry like a baby. they are accustomed to beatings and violence so that does not have the same effect as it would on say an American. |
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I'm all for letting the CIA/.mil do what they feel is necessary to the jihadis. If that means a bit of the ol' ultra violence, so be it. Success in the GWOT will take all sorts of nastiness. Being restricted by some obsolete 19th century Western European-inspired set of rules (which nobody else follows anyways) just so some leftards can feel better about themselves would be extremely retarded. |
You didn't address my big problem with this - the people being tortured are usually just arrested as suspects without any proof they are terrorists. U Fukking kidding me dude ? , maybe DUmmycrats "cant tell the difference between terrorists and fruit&vegitable stand thieves" but we have some boys working for us that are a tiny bit more clever than this. |
In my opinion referring to them as suspects blurs the line and gives them some kind of pseudo respectability. This is not an american courtroom. They aren't suspects they are terrorists. I don't believe they fall under the whole Constitutional burden of proof purview. Neither do I believe they should fall under the general guidelines for POWs. They are enemies of the state with no rights granted under the Constitution. They should be treated as rabid dogs except that one dog may be able to tell us where the others are and what they are planning. Extract that info if possible and then put them down. |
That's true, but they have already held at least one American citizen without trial for extended periods. Granted, the guy was a POS terrorist, but it sets precedent nevertheless. It's when we start bending the rules involving US citizens that I get concerned. I'm not against certain torture techniques being applied in certain situations, I just think we need to be careful and specific when we make the rules governing the subject. We should tread carefully - God only knows what the next administration may try. |
Of course Bush should purge the "Valiery Plame" Clintoon appointees , this is one of the problems i have with Bush. I could fire these commie loosers and hire a few dozen ARF members who can do the job in one afternoon. |
As far as I'm concerned, if the government suspects them then that's good enough for me. These people aren't Americans. We're not talking about Tim McViegh or John Walker Lind. These people are forgein nationals and enemies of the United States, captured on forgein battlefields, out of uniform in a time of war. In my opinion, they don't have the right to a fair trial, they don't have the right to remain silent and not be compelled to incriminate themselves, the aren't protected from unwarranted searches and seizures, they aren't protected from cruel and unusual punnishment. They have no rights under our constitution because they are not Americans.
Some of the tactics that the CIA is using HAS extracted information. As I understand it, water boarding this Al Queda boss that was arrested in Pakistan produced actionable intelligence which prevented a major terrorist attack. |
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I'm for effective means of interrogation. Torture is not an effective means of routine interrogation. Most of the intel we have gleaned from folks has been the result of professional, police style interrogations - sleep deprivation, keeping the room too cool or too warm, and so on. Your average Al-Qaeda guy will respond to this better - it destroys your will to resist when your interrogator is not the monster you were told they would be. Now, if you have the guy who has the location of a nuke on US soil, I'll be down at Sears, maxing out my credit cards on car batteries and jumper cables. 
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Have you seen Hostel? 
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Yes, but the government also gave John Walker Lind a fair trial and sentenced him to prison. As for Jose Padillia, I am not happy about the way that he was dealt with, but he did travel to a forgein nation to undergo terrorist training which under federal law voids his citizenship. These aren't members of the "Michigan Militia" or American citizens who blew up an abortion clinic. There is a HUGE difference in my mind. |
Bull-fucking-shit! They're gonna do that shit to our guys no matter what we do. This "Moral High Road" crap needs to be discarded, and quickly. I'm so sick of it. These savage bastards only understand one thing: BRUTE FORCE. Give it to them. Pull their fingernails out. Use a blowtorch. I don't fucking care! Oh, and tape it so Al-Jazeera can play it for the other shitheads to see so they know we mean business---with sound so they can hear the screams. When wrestling pigs in the mud, one should expect to get a little muddy, eh? |
If we don't have the moral high ground then what exactly makes us better? What makes us 'right' and them 'wrong' if we end up using the same tactics? |
Actually, your analogy proves my point. If you want to get rid of a pig, you don't wrestle him in the mud - that's his forte. I am surprised that so many gun owners are willing to forego moral principles on grounds of expediency. That's usually something I associate with Democrats (i.e., if it saves one child's life, then gun control is worth it). I try to abide by a set of moral principles in which I believe and try not to deviate from them just because it's inconvenient. I think my country should do the same. |
that is complete and utter BS that liberals love to spout. What do you think would happen to us if we got captured now? what has been happening to us since these wars have started? we're dealing with savages and they torture and kill service members already, we're behind the curve on torture. |
Because they started it? |
+1, i'm all for it, but the .MIL shouldn't, thats not our job. it should be the DIA and CIA spooky types |
Sheer idiocy. The fact that we may have to break a finger or two (or whatever) during the prosecution of a war has no bearing on our civilization as a whole. Contrast that to the jihadis, and the Darfurs and Talibans and other shining examples of their 'civilization'. They are fighting against us. People who ignore the basic concept of 'us' and 'them' are pretty much scraping the bottom of the stupid-barrel. |
I have no interest whatsoever in being "better" than them. I do, however, have a very real interest in WINNING. We are fighting them because they did, and are currently, trying to kill us. Some self-serving warm fuzzy about being morally superior to them is hogwash liberal shit. Winning, as well as sending an UNFORGETABLE message about future actions, is what it's all about. They laugh at our perceived moral superiority as weakness. They need to be shown that we can deliver the goods in a way their 7th century pea-brains can comprehend. BTW, we have indeed been brutal in our history. There weren't too many reporters or ACLU lawyers running around in WWII. My father-in-law can tell you some stories about the waning days of WWII in Europe that you'd swear Americans didn't do things like that. But we did and WE WON! |
Just remember that we won WW2 using flamethrowers, battleships, bombing whole cities to rubble, and dropping 2 nukes. The nicey-nice stuff comes AFTER we win unconditional surrender. AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT. |
That's not what they say. See where this can go? dolanp is right. |
World War Two was a conventional war, so of course you fight it with conventional methods. In an unconventional war you fight it in an ___________ way. Fill in the blank When Al Qaeda is a concrete country, instead of an abstract philosphy, and fields divisions of tanks, a few thousand uniforms men under arms, an air force, and a blue water navy, then we can fight a conventional war. |
You honestly give a shit what "they" say? The're wrong. We're right. Nuff said. America FIRST!!! Fuck "them". |
If we abandon our ideals, how can you make the claim to right or wrong? America first? I agree - cut foreign aid to all nations- especially those in the ME - this includes Israel. |
| One last thing before I leave this thread - you guys are forgetting who we're dealing with. Personally, I'd give these guys a cell with stacks of porn and a big rack of BBQ pork ribs on the table. Maybe even strippers (behind glass, of course). I don't think the Red Cross would call that torture, but after six months of jerking off and eating ribs, these guys probably wouldn't be hard core al queda members any more. |
Exactly what "ideals" are you talking about when it comes to this war? AMERICANS ON OUR SOIL (stipulated that to cover the John Walker Lindh's out there captured fighting us overseas) have the rights bestowed by the Constitution. No one else in the world does. Sorry. Don't like it? Then change your shitty government to reflect ours. Otherwise our "ideals" and "rights" apply only to Americans here in America. Your line of thinking is what has allowed it to be thought by some that the Gitmo pukes have "rights". They don't. |
The last 'unconvential' war that we won would be the Philippine-American War, which we fought in a brutal way. What is the point of fighting a war, if we are going to be all pussyfied about it and not be serious about victory? |
+1000, exactly what I was going to say.... |
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Okay guys. I've thought about it and terrorists indeed have 3 basic rights. "The Bill of Rights of Terrorists" 1) You have the right to live in abject misery. 2) You have the right to scream in agony. 3) You have the right to shit yourself as the bullet passes through your forehead once you've outlived your usefulness. That's it. Can't think of any others. |
I disagree somewhat.... Look, it boils down to the country no longer has the intestinal fortitude to do what it takes to win. Period. Look at some things happening in Iraq and elsewhere...when that crazy MF'er cleric was getting all his followers worked up, and we knew he was in the mosque, which was filled with his followers, and surrounded by his followers we should've done something....killed them all, MOAB'd them, napalm runs, whatever it took, but kill the whole lot of them, including all the women and children there supporting him too... Why? They are no friends of ours, never will be, therefore, they are enemies. But we didn't...and we'll pay in blood for not having done it.... Same thing...when we know those who are not our friends are gathering, we should kill them. Simple. Collateral damage is tough shit. Just keep killing those who are not our friends, until there are no unfriendlies left.... |