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Posted: 8/22/2005 5:48:09 PM EDT
It seems even most of the people here have given up already, most of whom were the same people who were all so gungho just a couple of short years ago.

Where is your resolve? Where has your patience gone?

If this many people here have given up, just imagine how bad the attitude is everywhere else.

I think everyone jumping ship is just proof that we as Americans no longer have the resolve or the stomach to tough out a real fight. Maybe Bin Laden was right. Maybe we are weak.

All I know is that I am sickened at how easy so many of us just fold anymore. If so many are giving up this easily, we might as well cancel the War on Terror, because there's no possible way we can sustain this for the 20-30 years it will take to win it.

I dunno why I am even babbling on here with this rant. I guess I'm just frustrated at what I'm seeing unfold before my eyes and feel the need to vent. It just sickens me greatly to sense that soon we are going to tuck our tails between our legs and withdraw from Iraq in shame like we did in Vietnam, Beirut, and Somalia. The very thought of that sickens me in a manner in which words can't even describe. But it's obvious with so many feeling the way they do now that that outcome in inevitable.

I dunno. Since it seems we've lost the will to fight these days, why do we even bother with having a military? The only people we'll bother fighting are those who we can totally roll over. Because God forbid, if whoever we are fighting kills a few of us, we just quit anyway. Since Vietnam, it's seemed rather pointless to even have a military. We no longer have the stomach to use it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:49:33 PM EDT
I have the same fears.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:51:03 PM EDT
it seems to be going reasonably well in Iraq, too. The terrorists are getting slowly strangled and the Iraqi forces are getting up to speed. I'd guess that in another year or so the terrorists will be much less of a force.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:51:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:52:33 PM EDT
I haven't lost my resolve. I don't care how long it takes because we MUST win.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:52:53 PM EDT
Preach on, brother. Amen.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:56:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 5:57:40 PM EDT by lippo]
I never thought this war was a good idea in the first place. I couldn't see any good outcome from it. But now that we are in it, we need to finish it.

But, mark my words, this war is not about what is morally right (which kicking Saddams murdering ass was), or about oil (which if you look at history in the 1950's, we are just getting back what was taken from us back then, and it SHOULD be about oil, or our country will collapse) or about terrorism, or about freedom for Iraqi's, or about Saddam having WMD. This war was about bible prophesy. The Anti-Christ will rise up out of this, maybe not in the next 10 years, but he will. Mark my words, he's coming and it's from the start of this so called "freedom" that the Iraqis are getting. Bush just followed his destiny.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:57:08 PM EDT
Preach it Charging_Handle…

If we acted like this during WWII we would have quit in the middle of Guadalcanal.

Some would do well to remember how long it took the US to get a working Constitution and problems that occurred during that process… and even then we still had a Civil War.

Tucking tail is no solution.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:57:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:03:18 PM EDT by WildBoar]
Just because some of us have no faith n the Radical Islamic middle east, it does not mean we gave up hope. We just had no hope for the mid east to begin with. Well I should say I am only speaking for myself. I have not seen much anti war stuff except for the ususal trolls from DU. Just because one does not see the Iraqis as being capable of self rule, means we are against the war.

I do think that what we are trying to accomplish is honorable and we are doing a pretty good job of it considering the gov wants to be PC at the same time. I support our troops and what they are doing. We need to finish the job so that when the Iraqis blow it, our hands wil be clean. The world cant say we screwed them, it will be evident to everyone those people are not capable of or deserve self rule.

The word will no we never back down and we see things through. The world will also realise radical Islam is the problem this world faces today.

Will some good come out of all this? Sure. Will we win? Sure Will the Iraqis make good use of the gift? I aint holding my breath.

I guess I am the old fashioned lets fight a war like a war type. Unfortunately we are too bust walking on eggshells in thsi war. Brute force is needed to keep some people in check, we need to understand that, rabid dogs do not make good pets. The Iraqis are too much like the Phrench for my liking and too much like the entitlement minded lazy pieces of crap right here at home. As long as someone else does the work for them, they are fine. As soon as we stop, a dictator will pop up, and they will take it because its easier for them.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:58:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Preach it Charging_Handle…

If we acted like this during WWII we would have quit in the middle of Guadalcanal.

Some would do well to remember how long it took the US to get a working Constitution and problems that occurred during that process… and even then we still had a Civil War.

Tucking tail is no solution.



+1

Once in it, finish it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:59:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:01:32 PM EDT by Skibane]
Personally, I have never harbored any delusions about how long this war was going to take - and I haven't lost any faith in the outcome. After all, some wars have lasted for generations on end, with little hope of complete victory. This one hasn't lasted as long as the open jar of mayonese in my fridge!

Only a fool expects miracles to happen overnight. If ARFCOM's membership is mostly comprised of fools, then so be it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:00:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:02:48 PM EDT
Thanks guys. I suppose there are still plenty among us who still have the vision to see this through. It's nice to know that not everyone has given up. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to vent. I suppose all the threads lately that start off with something like "let's bring our troops home now" stuff have just gotten to me.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned. Or maybe I'm just dumb. But I have always had a never give up attitude. And I take it seriously. I was a small kid growing up and was often picked on by the bigger kids. However, I always laid into anyone who messed with me. Sometimes I won. Sometimes I took a beating. But I did earn respect because I never gave up. I never chickened out. I did taste defeat on a few occasions, but I was defeated by superior fighters, not because I gave up. So I at least had dignity in my losses.

Being I was never one to give up, even when losing, I have a hard time with this defeatist stuff I see these days, when we are winning. If we lose, we lose. But let's at least make the enemy defeat us. For the love of God, let's not defeat ourselves. You can lose and maintain dignity so long as you gave it your all. But there is no dignity in giving up.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:03:10 PM EDT
Remain Vigilant
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:03:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
I haven't lost my resolve. I don't care how long it takes because we MUST win.



+3

(me, wife, dog)
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:05:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Thanks guys. I suppose there are still plenty among us who still have the vision to see this through. It's nice to know that not everyone has given up. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to vent. I suppose all the threads lately that start off with something like "let's bring our troops home now" stuff have just gotten to me.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned. Or maybe I'm just dumb. But I have always had a never give up attitude. And I take it seriously. I was a small kid growing up and was often picked on by the bigger kids. However, I always laid into anyone who messed with me. Sometimes I won. Sometimes I took a beating. But I did earn respect because I never gave up. I never chickened out. I did taste defeat on a few occasions, but I was defeated by superior fighters, not because I gave up. So I at least had dignity in my losses.

Being I was never one to give up, even when losing, I have a hard time with this defeatist stuff I see these days, when we are winning. If we lose, we lose. But let's at least make the enemy defeat us. For the love of God, let's not defeat ourselves. You can lose and maintain dignity so long as you gave it your all. But there is no dignity in giving up.


For the record I agree with you completely. I dont agree with others saying we should pack it up.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:09:05 PM EDT
woe unto us if we don't finish it. you can say it's about what what we should do, but I believe it is a matter of what we must do.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:13:42 PM EDT
I haven't lost my resolve and don't think we should drop everything and pull the troops out...but it is hard for me to feel as gung ho as I did when this started considering Bush was wrong about the intelligence going into the war, wrong about the cost, wrong about how many troops it was going to take, wrong about how long such a high number of troops were going to be there, wrong about how the Iraqi's were going to respond to us being there, wrong about how quickly the Iraqi security forces were going to take over, and now it appears he was wrong when he said they would create a free and democratic Iraq when his own administration just backed down and said it would be ok for them create the country using Islam as the basis for their law. All the above is nothing to be exicted or happy about...but I still want our guys to finish the job.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:14:16 PM EDT


I have not given up. I fear too many in our .gov have and that too large a percentage of the American public has as well.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:14:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:16:45 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]

Originally Posted By FordGuy:
woe unto us if we don't finish it. you can say it's about what what we should do, but I believe it is a matter of what we must do.



Agreed. This is no longer a matter of doing something because it's the right thing to do. It's a matter of life or death.

I wonder if many of the one's waving protest signs and think we should leave Iraq have given any real thought to the ramifications of doing so? It would be a disaster. Not only would our image be tarnished around the world but the enemy would sense blood in the water like a shark and move in for the kill.

We must fight this war as if our very survival as people and a nation were at jeopardy. Because in reality, it is. If we are to survive, winning is simply a must.

Our soldiers have proven they are willing. God bless them all. But unfortunately, the outcome doesn't rest in their hands. If it did, I would have 100% confidence. Nope. The outcome rests in the hands of a bunch of screwball politicians who's opinions change daily based on polls of our public brain dead.

That's why I have my doubts.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:16:33 PM EDT


Agreed. This is no longer a matter of doing something because it's the right thing to do. It's a matter of life or death.


Couldn't be said better.

HH
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:19:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:20:01 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:

Originally Posted By FordGuy:
woe unto us if we don't finish it. you can say it's about what what we should do, but I believe it is a matter of what we must do.



Agreed. This is no longer a matter of doing something because it's the right thing to do. It's a matter of life or death.

I wonder if many of the one's waving protest signs and think we should leave Iraq have given any real thought to the ramifications of doing so? It would be a disaster. Not only would our image be tarnished around the world but the enemy would sense blood in the water like a shark and move in for the kill.

We must fight this war as if our very survival as people and a nation were at jeopardy. Because in reality, it is. If we are to survive, winning is simply a must.



I think many of the reasons we are having a problem with resistance now is because of the way Clintoon handled Somalia. They figured if they fought back enough we would high tail it out of there. They should have sent in ALL forces into that city the next AM hunting for Aidids head and every other warlord. Spectres, mortars, fast movers. Thousands of troops not a few hundred. We should of brought the smakdown quickly , but Clinton set the stage for peacemaking peacekeeping operations for us. He gave us a black eye and made us look like a punk kid who got beat up and ran home.

I blame Clinton.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:19:21 PM EDT

CH...don't take it too much to heart. Others that think we got screwed over this, are only venting too. There is a lot of questions that haven't been answered, a lot of servicemembers still being killed. When you get 4 servicemembers being killed on the same day, in combat, it hits home very hard. Even though we lose numbers like that that every day in training. The last year I was in the MRNG, the Army lost 76 helicopter pilots that year. You didn't hear anything about it in the news. But when our military get killed by the enemy, that's a different feeling and people don't take kindly to longer term death caused by war. WW2 was a horrific war, and many died, but there was a clear vison on what needed to be done. In Iraq, it's different. That clear vision is being run by a bunch of people who don't like each other, want to screw each other over and don't have a clear end in their minds...only to get as much as they can.

This new Iraq will end up in civil war as soon as we pull out. That's why it's going to take at least 10 to 15 years before we could pull out all together. And I doubt that would even happen. Too much oil is at stake for us not to protect our national interests.

Personally, I hate seeing our youth being killed by a bunch of pussies that won't come out and fight. They just duck and run after they set off an IED. We have a ton of great kids in this country and if Clinton would have done his job, we wouldn't be in this mess. If only he'd said.."OK take that ass out", when he had the chance, all of this would have changed. But he was too busy.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:20:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcgredo:
it seems to be going reasonably well in Iraq, too. The terrorists are getting slowly strangled and the Iraqi forces are getting up to speed. I'd guess that in another year or so the terrorists will be much less of a force.



+1, and I will never give up on this country and I will always stand behind the things we do, long as I live. I hope that means something.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:23:24 PM EDT
... Hang tough Charging_Handle, I'm with you and our President on this one. If nothing else, we need to finish the effort for all those that have sacrificed their lives to date.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:23:28 PM EDT
My fiends, family, and I are all still behind our guys and their effort in Iraq.

It doesn't matter if we should have goten into this or not now. We're there, if we don't want to have to go back, we need to stay there until the job is done. Plain and simple.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:26:03 PM EDT
I haven't given up! WE won the war. Now we must complete the peace keeping mission. I'd be nice to get a little moral support for our peace keeping mission from the Democrats and The UN, But of course we know that they both want us to fail.

Noone seems to want to face the importance of what we are doing for the future of the world.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:27:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:28:57 PM EDT by ar15bubba]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
It seems even most of the people here have given up already, most of whom were the same people who were all so gungho just a couple of short years ago.

Where is your resolve? Where has your patience gone?

If this many people here have given up, just imagine how bad the attitude is everywhere else.

I think everyone jumping ship is just proof that we as Americans no longer have the resolve or the stomach to tough out a real fight. Maybe Bin Laden was right. Maybe we are weak.

All I know is that I am sickened at how easy so many of us just fold anymore. If so many are giving up this easily, we might as well cancel the War on Terror, because there's no possible way we can sustain this for the 20-30 years it will take to win it.

I dunno why I am even babbling on here with this rant. I guess I'm just frustrated at what I'm seeing unfold before my eyes and feel the need to vent. It just sickens me greatly to sense that soon we are going to tuck our tails between our legs and withdraw from Iraq in shame like we did in Vietnam, Beirut, and Somalia. The very thought of that sickens me in a manner in which words can't even describe. But it's obvious with so many feeling the way they do now that that outcome in inevitable.

I dunno. Since it seems we've lost the will to fight these days, why do we even bother with having a military? The only people we'll bother fighting are those who we can totally roll over. Because God forbid, if whoever we are fighting kills a few of us, we just quit anyway. Since Vietnam, it's seemed rather pointless to even have a military. We no longer have the stomach to use it.



a big + 1, I concur with you wholeheartedly. I am sick of the hand wringing too. Let's dig in for the long haul, that is what it will take.

By the way, Sen Hagel is a Rino DICK!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:37:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BBQMAN:
Its amazing what liberalism has done to this once great nation!



And web site

Thank You Charging_Handle...I'm in total agreement,

It seems allot here are being sucked in by the media. FNC is just as guilty as the Networks these days. Only negitive news or no news at all. I 'll rely on my Brothers in Country to keep me informed on what's really happening in Iraq and Afganistan.

Hell, we killed over 40 militants in Afganistan yesterday and hardly a word about it. Only news about the Constitution not being voted on by midnight (As I understood it, the deadline was only a tenitive date at best. Just a goal to work towards, not a definitive stoping point. The Sky is Falling Well I guess the Iraqis need more lobbiest and special interest groups before they can come to an agreement

We have to stay the course and Support our Troops...And their Mission!!! I do not see how one can honestly say they support one and not the other. That's the left's little trick so not to be acussed of hating the Troops like they did during Vietnam. Same ilk and same principles and allot of the same faces
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:40:30 PM EDT
Hagel also has an eye on The White House in 08. That's likely the reason for his recent comments. He wants to appear to be for whatever seems popular at the moment.

That is why I have so little faith in our nation these days. The politicians can't be trusted. They'd sell their soul to satan himself if doing so would give them some extra votes.

Again, I have full confidence in the members of our armed forces. But ultimately, whether we stay the course or leave will depend on the decision of politicians. That thought makes me cringe.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:41:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
It seems even most of the people here have given up already, most of whom were the same people who were all so gungho just a couple of short years ago.

Where is your resolve? Where has your patience gone?

If this many people here have given up, just imagine how bad the attitude is everywhere else.

I think everyone jumping ship is just proof that we as Americans no longer have the resolve or the stomach to tough out a real fight. Maybe Bin Laden was right. Maybe we are weak.

All I know is that I am sickened at how easy so many of us just fold anymore. If so many are giving up this easily, we might as well cancel the War on Terror, because there's no possible way we can sustain this for the 20-30 years it will take to win it.

I dunno why I am even babbling on here with this rant. I guess I'm just frustrated at what I'm seeing unfold before my eyes and feel the need to vent. It just sickens me greatly to sense that soon we are going to tuck our tails between our legs and withdraw from Iraq in shame like we did in Vietnam, Beirut, and Somalia. The very thought of that sickens me in a manner in which words can't even describe. But it's obvious with so many feeling the way they do now that that outcome in inevitable.

I dunno. Since it seems we've lost the will to fight these days, why do we even bother with having a military? The only people we'll bother fighting are those who we can totally roll over. Because God forbid, if whoever we are fighting kills a few of us, we just quit anyway. Since Vietnam, it's seemed rather pointless to even have a military. We no longer have the stomach to use it.




Hmmm well I know yer not talking to me, since I still think we need to stay till the job is done.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:42:39 PM EDT
I'm all for finishing the job but I fear that since the "War" part is over the military does not have the backing to do what it needs to do, namely KILL the terrorists where ever they are. Syria and Iran need to be told, if one vehicle or guy comes over the border we will chase them back over it and take them out. And we will take it as a declaration of war if they continue to cross. The Military needs to capture, convict and execute those responsible for terrorist acts, especially if not in military garb. They are nothing but saboteurs. However thats NOT going to happen because of the liberal pussies in the Govt and UN and around the world. In the end the Iraqis need to man up and while many are, all too many are content to shut their mouths and let the M.F.s continue on blowing up our guys.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:49:30 PM EDT
Liberalism has a fucked up way at looking at a real problem.....................................

We don't have time to do things right.............but we do have time to do it over.


Finish the job, make a statment and move on.

If we pull up short on this, the bite in the ass we'll recieve will be like no other.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:51:48 PM EDT
Is losing American soldiers to set up a Democratically elected extremist Islamic government in Iraq a worthwhile cause?

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:52:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shooter0311:

Originally Posted By BBQMAN:
Its amazing what liberalism has done to this once great nation!



And web site

Thank You Charging_Handle...I'm in total agreement,

It seems allot here are being sucked in by the media. FNC is just as guilty as the Networks these days. Only negitive news or no news at all. I 'll rely on my Brothers in Country to keep me informed on what's really happening in Iraq and Afganistan.

Hell, we killed over 40 militants in Afganistan yesterday and hardly a word about it. Only news about the Constitution not being voted on by midnight (As I understood it, the deadline was only a tenitive date at best. Just a goal to work towards, not a definitive stoping point. The Sky is Falling Well I guess the Iraqis need more lobbiest and special interest groups before they can come to an agreement

We have to stay the course and Support our Troops...And their Mission!!! I do not see how one can honestly say they support one and not the other. That's the left's little trick so not to be acussed of hating the Troops like they did during Vietnam. Same ilk and same principles and allot of the same faces



Yup.

How can we expect the troops to carry out their mission if the majority of the nation feels there is no hope in that mission?

I can't imagine how the young men who went over to Vietnam in 1969, 1970, 1971 or 1972 felt. I mean by that time, it was apparent that we were no longer interested in winning the war, but instesad finding an honorable peace. Ultimately, everyone who fought and died from that point on did so for NOTHING.

It's no wonder morale was often low and drug use high during that period of the war. Who the hell would want to be the last person to die in a war they knew we were abandoning? What motivation could troops have under such circumstances?

I really feel for our troops now caught in a similar situation. I often wonder what they are thinking about over there in regards to this sort of thing. I mean if the opposition keeps growing here at home and it becomes apparent we aren't going to stick around, how could we ask those who are there or are about to deploy to do so? I couldn't do that, not knowing that they aren't being sent there to win, but to hold out until some time table is reached. I don't think anyone with good faith could do that. Such a move would really hurt our military. Drug use would go up, as would desertions. Morale would sink. Again, nobody wants to be the last person to die in a war everyone has given up on.

That's why we must support these guys. Regardless of what we feel sometimes, we should always make those guys feel that we believe in them and support their mission and are willing to tough this out. If they are tough enough to go over there and do the fighting, by hell, I can at least have enough sack to support them. That's all they want. But they desperately need this from us. Without our support and committment to winning this fight, there's no way they can go about doing what they must do while there. The negative effects created by all the BS here at home will in the end get more guys killed than it will save.

Ah well, I sense I am going off on another rant here. No point in doing that since I would just be preaching to the choir and covering the same ground all over again.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:53:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:
I never thought this war was a good idea in the first place. I couldn't see any good outcome from it. But now that we are in it, we need to finish it.

But, mark my words, this war is not about what is morally right (which kicking Saddams murdering ass was), or about oil (which if you look at history in the 1950's, we are just getting back what was taken from us back then, and it SHOULD be about oil, or our country will collapse) or about terrorism, or about freedom for Iraqi's, or about Saddam having WMD. This war was about bible prophesy. The Anti-Christ will rise up out of this, maybe not in the next 10 years, but he will. Mark my words, he's coming and it's from the start of this so called "freedom" that the Iraqis are getting. Bush just followed his destiny.



You are an idiot
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:54:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:58:31 PM EDT by captainpooby]
I'm glad we're there kicking roper ass. Those fucks need some killin and I cheer every time our guys take some of 'em out.
I hate those fuckers with a passion, all of 'em. If I was running the show, there would be a lot MORE bodies, none of 'em ours but our CiC wants to do it this way, so OK.
It's not good when politics get in the way of war but it always does.

I'm proud of what we are doing over there.

People have forgotten what those fucks did to us.



Remember The Blood Of Heroes


In October of 2002, after hearing all the nay-sayers whining about going to war to fight against terrorism, (and to protect our interests and defend our allies) I wondered; how exactly do we defend and maintain our freedom then? If not by the violent destruction of those who would threaten us, then by what means? There comes a time when even peace loving people have to fight.

It seemed to me that far too many of us had forgotten the real issue in all of this - the people. More precisely, the American people - our Founding Fathers, our veterans, our military, our civil servants and even regular folk - those who have died or could die in the service of this country - in establishing, protecting and maintaining our freedom. If this isn't enough of a reason to go anywhere to fight anyone - to preserve the American way of life - then what is there left on this earth that matters at all? God help us!

I made 'Blood of Heroes' to remind people that everything we enjoy in America today is the result of someone's sacrifice, that it is constantly threatened - and that it is still worth fighting for. Not a lighthearted thought, indeed.

Hopefully, this site will remind us all of the human cost that has been paid for our freedom, our safety and our luxury. A price paid not just so you and I can vote and pray, but also so we can sit on the couch, watching TV, having 30 minute pizzas delivered to our doors. Even if you don't vote or pray, there is still plenty left worth fighting for. Think about that.

With all the invective about "blood for oil", we are not only justified in going to war - we were obligated to do it - and to do it in every place on this earth that ever poses a threat to the American way of life. It isn't blood for oil. It's blood for freedom - the blood of our heroes. We owe it to them... and we owe it to our children. Period.

We are lucky to live in the United States of America - and this privilege didn't come cheap.

Our Founding Fathers were not cowards. They made immense sacrifices to establish this Great Nation in freedom - not the least of which was going to war with the enemy of that freedom. All of those who have fought in the subsequent wars and conflicts and those who are fighting today have continued to make sacrifices in order to defend those original ideals. Even now, our civil servants, particularly Firefighters and Police, are making sacrifices to maintain the quality of our lives in this freedom.

If you are not willing to do everything in your power to defend this Great Nation, even taking up arms if it is necessary, then who will? If you will not defend America, that is your choice - but sit in silence and do not criticize those brave and valiant individuals who have the sense of duty, the measure of courage and the determination of heart to protect America... and, I might add, your cowardly soul.

Some have written with criticism. One person said they thought that including the photo of the woman falling from the building was in poor taste. Well, I am sorry you feel that way, but reality isn't always pretty. That woman really did jump - and so did hundreds of others.

Yes, the photos are offensive - not because they are graphic in nature - but because of what they represent. None of them are even close, visually speaking, to the level of violence on any major network during prime time. When I hear people make this charge, what I really hear them saying is 'I can't handle reality, I need to be in denial.' Well fine then, go back to sleep Virginia. Brave men will protect you. Just stop criticizing them for doing it the only way they know how, even if it is ugly.

Some people would have us forget that a heavy price has been paid so that we can live in comfort and security, barely even noticing the reality of the world around us. But that privilege didn't just fall out of a box - it was established in blood. The fact that you are comfortable is no reason to take it for granted. On September 11, 2001 - taking it for granted was no longer an option.

I am sorry if you feel that the depiction of actual events should be watered down into some kind of a Hallmark Card event, just so you can feel more comfortable. That kind of logic dictates that we may as well forget the whole thing. Sorry, not here. Not now. Not ever! If we cannot remember this for what it really is, then why remember it at all?

I dare not take any real credit for this presentation. After all, it is only significant because of what it showcases. All I did was take someone else's photos, someone else's quotes and someone else's music and put it all together to try and remind us all of something we should never forget anyway.

The email link is not here for my benefit, but only because I would hate to miss the opportunity to share this with even more people. Many viewers have contacted me through email to ask if they could have a copy to show at gatherings for emergency and military personnel, in their churches and at their schools. That is a huge blessing to me as it means even more people will be reminded.

I hope you will take a few moments to reflect on what we have and who paid for it. Look up and thank God that you live free in a nation that is blessed by Him and defended by heroes.

Romans 5:8,9

May God continue to bless America and all who defend her.

Fly the flag.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:56:36 PM EDT
I haven't changed my mind at all about Iraq. I still support the war 100%.

I still want terrorists and Saddam supporters to die, miserably and in great numbers.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:04:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Is losing American soldiers to set up a Democratically elected extremist Islamic government in Iraq a worthwhile cause?




Yes.

BTW, what's happening there isn't an "extremist Islamic" government, but rather a democratic government that respects Islam. There is a difference.

They aren't setting up a government that will govern like the Taliban or Iran. But Islam obviously is important to them, so it has to have some place in their new government. That should come as no shock. But we can still have one of the more democratic Islamic nations in the region, which is a worthy goal. Hopefully we end up with something resembling Eqypt.

Look at Afghanistan. They are still an Islamic nation. I'm sure there is a great deal of Islam associated with their government too. But they are doing ok so far. It's not radical Islam. And it isn't as extreme as the Taliban.

Baby steps folks. We aren't there to force our value and culture upon them. No. We are there to give them the freedom to choose what sort of life they want. We've won the war. Now we are there to keep them free until they get all the details worked out about how they'll govern themselves.

Though at first it may not be all we'd hoped it would be, it is their decision. When in the last 30 years has Iraq had a choice to choose anything until we came along? At least now they are able to actually take part and provide input to their situation. That's a helluva lot closer to freedom than anything they were allowed when Saddam was in power.

And of course, there can be further change now that the people are free. I never expected Iraq to become a carbon copy of America. But what we are doing now is setting the stage for more changes, years down the road. They have just come out from under the grasp of a brutal dictator. Don't expect miraculous change overnight. Change will come slowly. You might be surprised what Iraq might look like 30 years from now once these people have had time to grasp what freedom really is and how to use it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:06:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 7:16:57 PM EDT by lippo]

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By lippo:
I never thought this war was a good idea in the first place. I couldn't see any good outcome from it. But now that we are in it, we need to finish it.

But, mark my words, this war is not about what is morally right (which kicking Saddams murdering ass was), or about oil (which if you look at history in the 1950's, we are just getting back what was taken from us back then, and it SHOULD be about oil, or our country will collapse) or about terrorism, or about freedom for Iraqi's, or about Saddam having WMD. This war was about bible prophesy. The Anti-Christ will rise up out of this, maybe not in the next 10 years, but he will. Mark my words, he's coming and it's from the start of this so called "freedom" that the Iraqis are getting. Bush just followed his destiny.



You are an idiot




Guess you've never read the bible. Or know anything about the history of Iraq.


www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/history/oilhistindex.htm

Read the history or is that too hard for you?



History of Oil in Iraq
Lord Curzon, the British Foreign Secretary, denied that oil interests influenced policy in Iraq, but the archives show that the British government rushed troops to Mosul in 1918 to gain control of the northern oil fields. Britain and France clashed over Iraq's oil during the Versailles Conference and after, but Britain eventually took the lion’s share by turning its military victories into colonial rule. The powerful Iraq Petroleum Company, in which US and French firms held minority positions, acted always in the cartel interests of the Anglo-American companies. To the furty of the Iraqis and the French, it held down production to maximize profits elswhere. The company kept a monopoly of Iraq’s oil sector until nationalization in 1972.



Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:07:07 PM EDT
I'm hoping this is some sort of master plan to irritate the truly devout islamic to come to iraq to fight and die. Then cause we are there so long that more and more Islamic people (ROP) become more devout and come to fight and die.

Then eventually one of them will slip one past the goalie and commit another atrocious crime against Americans and we will LIGHT THOSE MOTHERFU*****'s *UP* with some nukes or something.


That's what I'm hoping for anyway. We could do with about a billion less muslims in the world. Personally I'm sick of their shit.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:11:36 PM EDT
I'm still hanging in there. I don't see any reason to dispair. The troops are doing a great job and the country is slowly putting itself together. It's not something we can do for them, or make them do for our approval. I think we may start putting together an exit plan in the next year, but don't look for any press announcements. GW will keep them guessing until the troops are getting on the planes.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:17:06 PM EDT
I have little faith in the Iraqis but I guess I should give them some slack. Maybe they will end up like the Kuwatis. They are an Islamic nation yet not really a problem. Bahrain is another example. Maybe we can at least hope for that?

I still think as long as the Sunni live and breath in Iraq, there will be tons of violence though.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:17:29 PM EDT
I agree with pretty much everybody else on this topic whose posts I've read here...

We absolutely need to see this through to the end. Whether we should have gone in the first place is beside the point... the fact is we are there now, and hence cannot just leave and come home. We have no choice but to see this through.

I also agree that the U.S.A. has become overly soft since WWII. If we lost several thousand men in the course of 3 days, our country would be in an absolute uproar. Compare today's reaction after a few casualties with the reaction after Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal, or Pelelieu, or any number of other battles, and you'll see what I mean. Most of you already know.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:19:38 PM EDT
CH, this might make you feel better:


Utah Station Refuses to Air Anti-War Ad

Associated Press | August 21, 2005
By JENNIFER DOBNER

A Utah television station is refusing to air an anti-war ad featuring Cindy Sheehan, whose son's death in Iraq prompted a vigil outside President Bush's Texas ranch.

The ad began airing on other area stations Saturday, two days before Bush was scheduled to speak in Salt Lake City to the national convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars.

However, a national sales representative for KTVX, a local ABC affiliate, rejected the ad in an e-mail to media buyers, writing that it was an "inappropriate commercial advertisement for Salt Lake City."

In the ad, Sheehan pleads with Bush for a meeting and accuses him of lying to the American people about Iraq's development of weapons of mass destruction and its connection to al-Qaida.

"I love my country. But how many more of our loved ones need to die in this senseless war?" a weary-looking Sheehan asks in the ad. "I know you can't bring Casey back. But it's time to admit mistakes and bring our troops home now."

Salt Lake City affiliates of NBC, CBS and Fox began running the ad Saturday.

The ads were bought by Gold Star Families for Peace. Washington, D.C.-based Fenton Communications, a public relations firm working for the group, provided a copy of the e-mail received from station sales representative Jemina Keller to The Associated Press.

In a statement Saturday evening explaining its decision, KTVX said that after viewing the ad, local managers found the content "could very well be offensive to our community in Utah, which has contributed more than its fair share of fighting soldiers and suffered significant loss of life in this Iraq war."

Station General Manager David D'Antuono said the decision was not influenced by the station's owner, Clear Channel Communications Inc.

Celeste Zappala, who with Sheehan co-founded Gold Star Families for Peace, said she was puzzled by the decision.

"What stunned me was that it was inappropriate to hear this message," she said. "How is it that Salt Lake City should hear no questions about the war?"

The e-mail read: "The viewpoints reflected in the spot are incompatible with our marketplace and will not be well received by our viewers." It added that the spot didn't qualify as an issue advertisement.

For the ad to have been considered an "issue" advertisement a ballot measure would have had to be at stake, D'Antuono said.

Mark Wiest, vice president of sales for NBC-affiliated KSL television, said that in the interest of freedom of speech, his station didn't hesitate to run the ad. KSL is owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"The bigger picture is, by suppressing the message are we doing what is right under the First Amendment and in an open democratic society?" Wiest said.

Bush received nearly 70 percent of the vote last fall in Utah, one of the most conservative states north of the Bible Belt.


Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:23:51 PM EDT
Given up on the fight? Not me. Our military is the finest in the world - BY FAR! We won the fight in short order.

We are now morphing into "nation building" and "police action". It is no longer a simle fight. We need to get out soon, but not too soon. They have their own internal problems they need to work out. We should get out of the way and let them get to it.

The only question is, "When?".
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:30:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 7:30:50 PM EDT by Who_Me]
I take comfort in the following:

1) This isn't the 1960's.
2) There are more sources to get infomation from, not just three TV stations.
3) We WILL see this through, most of us understand the importance.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:32:19 PM EDT
The MAJORITY of the terror in Iraq is directed against the civillians, not our military. Why? Because fighting our soldiers and Marines is NOT productive. Rather, it results in the few insurgents becoming even fewer.

What the terrorists don't want happening is what is going on now. Regardless of the Sunni/Shia plans, the Kurds will have some degree of autonomy. And there is NOTHING that can be done about that. Sure, killing some people might make a few scared in the regions where terror operates but to the Kurdish areas, they don't see it.

Now if the terrorists stop their attacks, this means they are satisfied with the outcome. But as long as they are on the offensive, all is fine. They are well on their way to extinction, at least in Iraq.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:36:00 PM EDT
Thank God....someones paying attention!!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:37:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
I haven't changed my mind at all about Iraq. I still support the war 100%.

I still want terrorists and Saddam supporters to die, miserably and in great numbers.




+1000! I still have the exact same attitude I've had for almost 4 years now.

Go Troops!!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:37:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
It seems even most of the people here have given up already, most of whom were the same people who were all so gungho just a couple of short years ago.

Where is your resolve? Where has your patience gone?

If this many people here have given up, just imagine how bad the attitude is everywhere else.

I think everyone jumping ship is just proof that we as Americans no longer have the resolve or the stomach to tough out a real fight. Maybe Bin Laden was right. Maybe we are weak.

All I know is that I am sickened at how easy so many of us just fold anymore. If so many are giving up this easily, we might as well cancel the War on Terror, because there's no possible way we can sustain this for the 20-30 years it will take to win it.

I dunno why I am even babbling on here with this rant. I guess I'm just frustrated at what I'm seeing unfold before my eyes and feel the need to vent. It just sickens me greatly to sense that soon we are going to tuck our tails between our legs and withdraw from Iraq in shame like we did in Vietnam, Beirut, and Somalia. The very thought of that sickens me in a manner in which words can't even describe. But it's obvious with so many feeling the way they do now that that outcome in inevitable.

I dunno. Since it seems we've lost the will to fight these days, why do we even bother with having a military? The only people we'll bother fighting are those who we can totally roll over. Because God forbid, if whoever we are fighting kills a few of us, we just quit anyway. Since Vietnam, it's seemed rather pointless to even have a military. We no longer have the stomach to use it.

............................Someone who gets it!!!!!!!
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