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Posted: 8/7/2005 7:23:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Jesus is the second member of the Trinity. He is God. |
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Posted: 8/7/2005 7:51:07 PM EDT
[#2]
The Son of God is GOd. Just as the Holy Spirit is also GOd.
The three make up the Holy Trinity. All the same entinety, just expressed differantly. SGat1r5 |
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Posted: 8/7/2005 8:06:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Okay... Jesus is True God and True Man, right?
While the argument could be made that Jesus is a demigod it doesn't quite hold water when one looks at it this way: Quick.. some one draw a Jesus fish.. y'know the kind you find on the tail ends of cars all over... Got it? Good. Now, take your pen and put it on the tip of the nose of the fish and draw a circle around to the top of the tail. Done? Excellent. Now do the same but draw a lower circle from the tip of the nose to the bottom of the tail. What do you see? Two intersecting circles. One is Divinity and one is Humanity. Jesus is the overlapping space; the bridge between Divinity and Humanity. They don't teach you that meaning of it in Bible study.... Now you have a visual representation of Jesus' purpose and you know what the symbol really means. So, knowing this, does it make more sense that Christianity doesn't inherently defy the second commandment? |
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Posted: 8/7/2005 8:18:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Ummmmmmmm...........what?
Sgat1r5 |
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Posted: 8/7/2005 8:23:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Triune is probably a better descriptive term than trinity.
Three-in-one. While this is a horrible example; I can be a father, a son, and a brother all at the same time, without being 3 different people. Suffice it to say, there are plenty of Bible verses that describe the multiple natures of a single God, and it's a fairly standard Christian doctrine. If you are looking for something deeper, I would suggest visiting the forums at www.carm.org. ETA: Didn't realize Mr-H's link went to CARM. Great minds think alike. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 4:05:11 AM EDT
[#6]
No, it wouldn't. God The Father was glorified as God even by Christ Himself, and God appointed Christ above all things Himself. There is no rivalry in The Trinity. Father, Son and Spirit are One, completely united and without ego. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 9:24:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Trinity. 3 in 1, 3 are 1, use whatever term you want. Same thing, One God, 3 manifestations. that was easy huh...... |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:24:06 PM EDT
[#8]
Thnx guys for the link, I have been surfing the site the last two days. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 4:43:01 AM EDT
[#9]
Prepare to spend a LOT of time over there... 
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Posted: 8/9/2005 5:16:39 AM EDT
[#10]
What is the official definition of apologetics?
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Posted: 8/9/2005 5:22:44 AM EDT
[#11]
See... You have a flash of insight and I wasn't around to see it. You've touched on something extremely important which spans across several different systems of thought. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 5:30:36 AM EDT
[#12]
The dictionary is your friend.  apol·o·get·ics 1 : systematic argumentative discourse in defense (as of a doctrine) 2 : a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 2:17:36 AM EDT
[#13]
I personally go with the belief that Jesus was involved with the Esscene, the term Son of Man, is used to describe themselves, not to raise any person to the level of G*d. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 6:02:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Jesus did claim to be very God, among other times when he said "I am." Every Hebrew would recognize that from their own history as a name solely belonging to God. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 11:39:48 AM EDT
[#15]
Eep! I'm reading a book right now about this very thing. Well.. Not the Esscenes.. But the Naassene Sermon, which, ironically enough, is only preserved through Hippolytus' Refutation of All Heresies. There's an entire chapter about the use of the term Son of Man. It's pretty cool. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:01:59 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:04:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Incorrect, every Hebrew would not since this is a purely Christian idea. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:14:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Your Torah-fu is weak... Exo. 3: 13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" 14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " 15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation. Christ's reference to himself as "I am" was a DIRECT QUOTE of Exodus. EVERY Israelite would have recognized my Lord's reference - that Christ equated Himself with Yahweh. Its why the Pharisees went about to kill Christ. They thought Him a blashpemer, which in the law of Moses was a capital offense. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:18:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Your Torah-fu is weak... ___________________________________________________  Please refrain from telling a Jew his Torah-fu is weak. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:20:12 PM EDT
[#20]
I can't find anything where he said he was G*d...I would seemo think that if he had said I am G*d, the Sanhedrien would have found him guilty and had him stoned..they instead took him to the ROmans.
GM I can agree with you, he is from G*d ,there was a divinty about him. As there were men people in Isarel. I will not negrate him, just I do not believe him the Messiah. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:22:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Please refrain from telling me what to refrain from. Jesus may not be God, but I am QUITE sure you aren't. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:24:04 PM EDT
[#22]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted: Quoted: Your Torah-fu is weak... ___________________________________________________ Please refrain from telling a Jew his Torah-fu is weak. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please refrain from telling me what to refrain from. _____________________________________________________________ 
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:25:58 PM EDT
[#23]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Quoted: Your Torah-fu is weak... ___________________________________________________ Please refrain from telling a Jew his Torah-fu is weak. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please refrain from telling me what to refrain from. Jesus may not be God, but I am QUITE sure you aren't. ____________________________________________________________ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>------------------------------- -----------------------------------
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:30:08 PM EDT
[#24]
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14: 9 - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father John 10:30 - I and my Father are one (giving sense to the Scripture "Hear O Israel, the lord our God is one." )
Scripture addresses this too. They said "His blood be on us, and on our children." But Israel was under Roman rule, and used the mechanisms available.
I know you don't beleive He is the Messiah, but I have confidence you seek truth. As do I. I respect that. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:36:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Todah rabbah Ed. G-man's problem is that he doesn't have a Torah so he cannot debate intelligently. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:40:47 PM EDT
[#26]
If you truly were seeking the truth than you would be doing more listening instead of waiting to tell the Jew that he is wrong because it does not relate to your Christian concepts. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:55:26 PM EDT
[#27]
If you truly were seeking the truth than you would be doing more listening instead of waiting to tell the Jew that he is wrong because it does not relate to your Christian concepts.
______________________________________________________________ They've been waiting for only 2,000 yrs. We've been waiting longer than that for a REALLY good Chinese delicatessen delivery on Shabbos!!
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Posted: 8/10/2005 1:36:07 PM EDT
[#28]
+1  
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Posted: 8/10/2005 1:48:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Aha! Dances with Snakes admitting Jesus MAY NOT be G-D! The End is near indeed! |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 1:59:08 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 8/10/2005 2:02:17 PM EDT
[#31]
I always had the impression that the second commandment implies the existance of other gods. This one just doesn't want us to have others before him.
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Posted: 8/10/2005 2:04:01 PM EDT
[#32]
I've made that arugument myself. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 2:14:10 PM EDT
[#33]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: I always had the impression that the second commandment implies the existance of other gods. This one just doesn't want us to before him. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've made that arugument myself. __________________________________________________________________ A solid point from the Jewish perspective. The Hebrews of the Torah never objected to the idea that other gods (note the un-hyphenation!) didn't exist within the reality of other peoples they knew. It was only the G-d who was revealed to the Hebrews, and whom was accepted by them have Jews maintained that un-ending Covenant for all time. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 3:27:36 AM EDT
[#34]
Me too. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 3:33:06 AM EDT
[#35]
Some truth I'm still seeking. For that truth, you are correct. Doubtful I'll find it if I'm too busy yapping about my opinions in those matters. Other truth I have found. THAT truth I am both commanded and desirous to speak about. In the same manner I would be morally and personally obligated to tell a swimmer of the shark 100 feet away from him. I realize telling anyone they are "wrong" is offensive. My hope is in the areas I am wrong, others will tell me. I get a bit excited about these topics, and maybe a bit over zealous. While i have no desire to be intentionally offensive, I do look at a persons participation in these threads as a solicitation of my perspective. Methinks that's why they call them "discussion" forums. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 3:34:15 AM EDT
[#36]
Anything is possible. That's why they call my belief that Jesus IS God "faith." |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 3:37:05 AM EDT
[#37]
Actualyl, Yahweh Himself has said the historical Jews broke that covenant, re-established that covenant, broke that covenant, re-established that covenant, broke that covenant...... (you get the idea) .... ...and finally God amended that covenant in teh rending of the temple veil, and the resurrection of jesus Christ. (Obviously, I know you don't beelive that, just a Biblical perspective on your comment) |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 3:38:30 AM EDT
[#38]
Of course I have a (copy of the) Torah. I've quoted from it. NO ONE here has a real one. We're all working off copies. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 4:05:13 AM EDT
[#39]
I should mention... ...I tell Chrsitians their Bible-fu is weak also. garand(observerofhumanity)man |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:49:18 PM EDT
[#40]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Please refrain from telling a Jew his Torah-fu is weak. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I should mention... ...I tell Chrsitians their Bible-fu is weak also. garand(observerofhumanity)man ______________________________________________________ Well, then, mr. smarty pants, as an observer of humanity, then I would hope you would learn from your observations, and not resort to inflamatory rhetoric. Otherwise, your intense observation and study of humanity is simply an excercise in jerking yourself off. Oh, there, my golly--must not be a Mrs., huh?
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Posted: 8/11/2005 1:52:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Wrong again. You have poor copies, I quote from the original Hebrew. The text hasn't changed since it was first given by G-d. Furthermore, all the written copies of Torah we have today originate from the scroll Ezra wrote after the Babylonian Exile, and were painstakingly copied throughout the centuries by trained scribes, who are not allowed to make any mistakes in copying (otherwise the whole Torah scroll is invalid and must be destroyed). Plus I am reading from the Hebrew not English. What you quote from I'm not sure. |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 6:53:57 PM EDT
[#42]
Is this the type of behavior and crude language the Torah allows? |
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Posted: 8/11/2005 6:55:20 PM EDT
[#43]
I also have access to the original languages. My Torah-fu is strong. |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 6:58:00 AM EDT
[#44]
Oh sure there are other "gods". If you place your money on a pedastal, and are consumed by desire for it, then money becomes your god. Any inanimate object, person, place, whatever, can be a god to you. The point is that you are to place importance on nothing above what you place on the one true God.
As for the Covenant, God kept the Covenant because Israel never could. The point is that theHebrew people of the Old Testament were constantly in idolatry. Read Judges and you'll quickly get an idea of their state of affairs. In Genesis (chapter 15, I think), Jehovah makes a covenant with Abram. But He causes Abram to sleep so that this agreement is actually between God and Himself. Not Abram saying: "May I be split apart like these animals if I fail", because without a doubt, Abram would fail, but, in fact, God promising to keep Abram in this Covenant despite his failing. ETA: Read the first 3 chapters of Hosea for a good analogy of this. By the way, this isn't the second commandment, it's the first. The second is about graven images. |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 9:37:08 AM EDT
[#45]
And yet you've called most folks who disagree with you politely "trolls".  Ed, please refrain from personal attacks; for the sake of the forum, and for your own. Thanks. |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 10:26:42 AM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 8/12/2005 10:27:19 AM EDT
[#47]
John 14:10 "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." (I don't think Jesus was claiming to be God in verse 9) Also, Matthew 5:8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God" -- But they ain't seen him yet. John 1:18 "no man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." 1 Tim 6:16 [God] alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. --- Note that this was said long after Jesus had ascended. John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified about me. You people have never heard his voice nor seen his form at any time, Further, from the description of Jesus in Isaiah, he sure didn't appear as God... 53:2 He sprouted up like a twig before God,like a root out of parched soil;he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention, no special appearance that we should want to follow him.
John 17 21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me. Unless all of us are going to be God too, I don't think 10:30 is a claim to Godhood. |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 10:32:52 AM EDT
[#48]
And yet you've called most folks who disagree with you politely "trolls".
Ed, please refrain from personal attacks; for the sake of the forum, and for your own. Thanks. __________________________________________________________________ Hey there FMD...personal and religious attacks upon Jewish posters began with the brainstorm of an accusation upon Jews that "...our Torah-Fu was weak."  For the sake of this forum? Then help stop the abuse, and don't contribute further to it. 
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Posted: 8/12/2005 10:42:38 AM EDT
[#49]
And yet you've called
Ed, please refrain from personal attacks; for the sake of the forum, and for your own. Thanks. _____________________________________________ Fixed it for you so as to be more precise...have no idea where I referenced more than 2 has having Trollish aspects; I have no idea as how that may be translated into "most", unless you were a reference of mine? Proceed sensibly and courteously, yourself! |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 10:44:05 AM EDT
[#50]
Todah rabbah TheWind! How is it with you?
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