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Posted: 10/6/2004 4:21:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 12:47:13 PM EST by vito113]
A Muslim country, Turkey, has been given the 'Green Light' for EU membership… hopefully this will kill the EU dead…

ANdy

Qualified 'Yes' to Turkey on Euro Membership Talks

By Geoff Meade, Europe Editor, PA News in Brussels


Turkey was given a qualified “yes” today to the start of formal membership talks with the European Union.

The Government welcomed the historic move – more than 40 years after the Turks first came knocking on the then Common Market’s door.

Today’s recommendation to start talks came from the European Commission and EU leaders are almost certain to endorse it at a summit in December.

That would mean the formal launch of accession negotiations sometime next year – probably during Britain’s presidency of the EU.

European Commission President Romano Prodi today emphasised that there was no guarantee that negotiations would lead automatically to membership for Turkey.

Today’s decision came after intense Commission talks over strict conditions governing Turkey’s eventual transition – which could take 10 years – to EU membership.

The decision was a qualified “yes” said Mr Prodi, adding: “Now we have to avoid Turkey compromising what we have built in Europe over the last 50 years.”

His remark reflected continuing worries about Turkey’s human rights record – not least an attempt only weeks ago by the Turkish Parliament to outlaw adultery.

Although Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdogan swiftly rebuffed the proposal after complaints from Brussels, senior politicians in Europe were still alarmed that such a notion could even be considered in the crucial weeks leading up to today’s decision.

Centre-right Euro MPs this afternoon warned Mr Prodi that they did not consider Turkish EU membership a foregone conclusion.

Mr Prodi made clear membership was still a long way off.

It was “inconceivable” he said, that Turkey’s position could be taken into account when finalising the EU budget for 2007-2013.

Mr Prodi said there remained “real questions”.

He said the accession talks would be halted if there was any backsliding on Turkey’s fragile human rights improvements.

Turkish accession is the most sensitive and most far-reaching of any EU enlargement.

Although 10 countries joined the European Union last May, Turkish membership has wider-ranging implications not least because it would bring into the EU club for the first time a country with a Muslim majority.

Turkey, a nation of 67 million people, could fundamentally alter the political dynamics of the EU – but the Commission was popping the champagne corks today to welcome the latest round of what is becoming an unstoppable expansion of a club which began more than 50 years ago with just six countries.


news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3590972
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 4:23:19 AM EST
You got a problem with Turkey?


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 4:24:05 AM EST
Hm, is Turkey considered an European nation?
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 4:24:49 AM EST
More info needed, I plead EU ignorance...

Turkey is fairly westernized, and not in danger of an 'Sharia revolution'. What's the beef? Does it (Acceptance) water down votes, does it change financial policy, does it add a net producer or extractor?
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 4:24:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Duffy:
Hm, is Turkey considered an European nation?




Yes and no. But if europe is smart they will allow them to join.

SGatr15
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 4:30:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 4:42:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 4:43:16 AM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
More info needed, I plead EU ignorance...

Turkey is fairly westernized, and not in danger of an 'Sharia revolution'. What's the beef? Does it (Acceptance) water down votes, does it change financial policy, does it add a net producer or extractor?



It's a muslim country, it would be the poorest UE country by GDP per person, has an atrocious human rights record…

No matter how "Westernised" the Turkish elite might feel, the argument goes, the Turkish masses are no more "European" than their counterparts in Morocco, Egypt or Pakistan.

Some see the failure of post-Ottoman Turkey to shake off its militaristic tendencies and deepen its democratic processes as a characteristic that is common to the Middle East and wider Islamic world. Some EU politicians do express concern - citing economic reasons - about the prospect of millions of relatively poor Turks flooding the EU labour market.

Some of Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan's core supporters are conservative, religious Muslims, who want Erdogan to promote a conservative, pro-Islamic agenda, such as easing unpopular bans on Islamic headscarves at universities and criminalising adultery, which was illegal in Turkey until 1996, when Turkey's top court struck it down.

Ironically, some see EU membership as a way of ultimately furthering the cause of Islam in that in an EU nation the military, seen as the guarantor of secularism in Turkey, would no longer be able to influence Turkish politics .

Andy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:38:17 AM EST
Next thing you know, they'll be letting Israel in too...
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:46:32 AM EST
The EU is going to collapse or split..........

CRC
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:01:50 AM EST
Turkey was good enough for NATO....on the front line as a matter of fact.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:04:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
Turkey was good enough for NATO....on the front line as a matter of fact.



Purely becaiuse of their geographical location… "A member of convenience'……

Andy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:06:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
Turkey was good enough for NATO....on the front line as a matter of fact.



Purely becaiuse of their geographical location… "A member of convenience'……

Andy




...but a member nonetheless. A far better member than France. But then again, France is stinking up the EU as well.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:14:06 AM EST
Will this make it easier for Turks to immigrate to (i.e. flood into) European countries?

Hey maybe England should form an economic consortium with the US.

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:31:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 9:38:11 AM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
Turkey was good enough for NATO....on the front line as a matter of fact.



Purely becaiuse of their geographical location… "A member of convenience'……

Andy




...but a member nonetheless. A far better member than France. But then again, France is stinking up the EU as well.



France pulled out of NATO in 1966…… the EU is a French creation designed to improve France's political and economic prestige, only France and Germany have clear advantages in being EU members. Without the EU, France and Germany are irrelivances on the World stage, Britain on the other hand would still be a significant player if it was ouitside Europe.

Our Conservative Oppostion party has said it intends to renegotiate our postion within Europe if re-elected.

ANdy

Andy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:34:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Captain_Picard:
Will this make it easier for Turks to immigrate to (i.e. flood into) European countries?

Hey maybe England should form an economic consortium with the US.




Yes… exactly the problem the sensible politicians forsee… with EU membership we will see millions of poor and badly educated Turks flooding into the wealthy west European countries.

As to forming an Economic alliance with the USA… yes! I believe we should pull out of the EU and join the NAFTO… works for Norway!

Andy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:36:03 AM EST
With the large Muslim populations in France, Spain, and Germany the addition of Turkey will really colour (spelling for you Andy) EU politics against us in the GWOT.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:37:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By Captain_Picard:
Will this make it easier for Turks to immigrate to (i.e. flood into) European countries?

Hey maybe England should form an economic consortium with the US.




No there will be a specific rules that prevent relocation. They will be a second class EU partner. The EU sux.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:44:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 9:46:29 AM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By dport:
With the large Muslim populations in France, Spain, and Germany the addition of Turkey will really colour (spelling for you Andy) EU politics against us in the GWOT.



Thank you dport…

I see you can spot the political ramifications of a large Muslim country joining the EU…

Already we have local Muslim populations influencing policy in the mainland EU states… with a country of 65 Million muslims joining the EU, the potential is there for this EU wide muslim population, (who have the highest birth rate in Europe by a huge margin), to have a very significant voice in EU politics.

Andy

BTW… I use the spelling 'color' all the time, drives my boss nuts…
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:54:41 AM EST
I as a person who is well aquaintated with euro politics can say this....... TURKEY WILL NEVER BECOME A MEMBER OF THE EU!!!!! NEVER! The EU WILL be flooded with Turk muslims! In the EU any citizen from one country can immigrate to another without permission. it's like moving from Kansas to Florida, Just a little paperwork. Look at a map, They share a common border with Syria, Iraq and Iran, WOW What a european country! This is a story I heard, Some German tourist and his neice were meeting touring turkey when A man found out she was his neice so he offered him a beat up old car as payment so he could marry her. Yeah they are real civilised. Another problem is the Undrcurrent of Islamic Fundamentalism in their politics. The dictator (he's supposed to be an elected president) recently banned a islamic party for being not secular enough, wow more freedom for you! They think you can force Westernism on the peasant turks through laws. Like they have banned the wearing of the Fez cap to make themselves look more european, HA i ain't buying it! If they were truly free they would be able to wear the fez, but the elite think that by forcing turks to act western, that makes it so. Let's not also forget that the turkish people have been itching to "join" either by conquest or politics with the europeans. You see 1000 years ago when they first invaded Anatolia (Turkey) they had a choice become Christian Greek or Muslim. Since at that time Islam was powerful and christianity was weak they choose to be Islamic, And they have regretted it ever since!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! So now they have tried their hardest to invade Europe by hook or by crook. You know why Yugoslavia and Kosovo have such large muslim populations? Cause the turks put them there in an effort to 'Islamisize' Europe in the 1500's. And they still want to get the white woman and the good farmland as well. And now with France having 10% muslim population and other euro countries having growing populations too, they are succeding.

Condolences Andy, I feel sorry for any Brit or Euro who has to put up with this Socialist Euro BS. But there is hope, one islamic leader complained that there is an "iron Curtain" falling between the west and the islamic world. Heres hoping for small miracles. Cheers me 'ol mate!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:58:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By t-stox:
I as a person who is well aquaintated with euro politics can say this....... TURKEY WILL NEVER BECOME A MEMBER OF THE EU!!!!! NEVER! The EU WILL be flooded with Turk muslims! In the EU any citizen from one country can immigrate to another without permission. it's like moving from Kansas to Florida, Just a little paperwork. Look at a map, They share a common border with Syria, Iraq and Iran, WOW What a european country! This is a story I heard, Some German tourist and his neice were meeting touring turkey when A man found out she was his neice so he offered him a beat up old car as payment so he could marry her. Yeah they are real civilised. Another problem is the Undrcurrent of Islamic Fundamentalism in their politics. The dictator (he's supposed to be an elected president) recently banned a islamic party for being not secular enough, wow more freedom for you! They think you can force Westernism on the peasant turks through laws. Like they have banned the wearing of the Fez cap to make themselves look more european, HA i ain't buying it! If they were truly free they would be able to wear the fez, but the elite think that by forcing turks to act western, that makes it so. Let's not also forget that the turkish people have been itching to "join" either by conquest or politics with the europeans. You see 1000 years ago when they first invaded Anatolia (Turkey) they had a choice become Christian Greek or Muslim. Since at that time Islam was powerful and christianity was weak they choose to be Islamic, And they have regretted it ever since!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! So now they have tried their hardest to invade Europe by hook or by crook. You know why Yugoslavia and Kosovo have such large muslim populations? Cause the turks put them there in an effort to 'Islamisize' Europe in the 1500's. And they still want to get the white woman and the good farmland as well. And now with France having 10% muslim population and other euro countries having growing populations too, they are succeding.

Condolences Andy, I feel sorry for any Brit or Euro who has to put up with this Socialist Euro BS. But there is hope, one islamic leader complained that there is an "iron Curtain" falling between the west and the islamic world. Heres hoping for small miracles. Cheers me 'ol mate!



This all true my friend, but the Liberal 'One Worlders' who have such a stanglehold on European politics seem to have this 'idea' that Turkey can act as a 'bridge' between Europe and the Islamic Middle East…… fucking crazy concept, but people are buying into it!

Andy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:10:12 AM EST
It'll accelerate the downfall and breakup of the EU in my opinion.
On the other hand, similar concerns existed when Italy joined the EU. There were a shit load os illegal italian immigrants in Germany and folks there were conerned that tha=ey would be overrun once Italy joined giving all Italian citizens the right to reside and work wherever they wish in the EU. Nothing like it has happened! The folks that wanted to immigrate to different european coutries did so already. No wave of immigrants occurred. Maybe it's the same with Turkey... But then again, Turkey ain't Italy!!!! Huge difference. Western value system, christianity, etc.....

We'll see what happens.

Andy,
...Without the EU, France and Germany are irrelivances on the World stage, Britain on the other hand would still be a significant player if it was outside Europe.....
Who are you kidding?
I understand your national pride but lets not confuse financial fact with it. No offense but it could be argued that the EU has been more of a financial drain for those nations in the last 40 years. It's an idea/ideal that some nations are willing to spend a boatload of cash on. If you look at the financial strength of various nations in the last 30 years the US is clearly #1, followed by Japan #2, Germany #3, France #4, etc....
However, the extended EU might lead to financial problems for those nations that are too closely allied with it. I do agree with you on that. For Greece it's a win-win situation. For other nations it's a drain-drain situation...

My biggest concern is the increasing influence of islam in Europe. Paired with political correctness it's a deadly mixture.

Time will tell but I'm not hopeful...

In principal the idea of a EU is a good one as long as you restrict the membership to certain northern/western european countries. To invite everyone to the party is going to invalidate the original intentions.
The United States of America are what they are because of their status as one united country.
Alabama (no offense guys - just an example) as a sovereign nation wouldn't go far either.
Unification can be a success but only in a reasonable way. The EU has left reason far behind.
Who's the next candidate for EU membership? Syria? Armenia? Or parts of northern Africa....?
That doesn't sound like a 'European Union' to me but rather like the misguided ideas of the freakin globalists (like sKerry)....

Well, I hope it'll work out for Europe but I'm sceptical to say the least.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:12:18 AM EST
Turkey may have a muslim population, but it has enforced secular beliefs. The army is the keeper of the traditon of Attaturk, and every time the muslims try to have it their way, the army locks and loads and tells them to stand down.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:13:46 AM EST
t-stox hit the nail on the head!


But I wouldn't put it past the socialist european elites to invite Turkey to the club......

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:15:01 AM EST
I'm not super familiar with turkey's history.....but I seem to remember something about the ottoman empire and the islamic domination of portions of europe for a while....as in, while spain was having those pesky muslims invading, the turks were trying to invade eastern europe.


I'm probably wrong though. But if not.....can't see how much has changed since 800ad
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:30:50 AM EST
Isn't Turkey the Muslim nation with the best relationship with Israel? From what I've read, their relationship is far closer than either Nation makes too public. IMI does a ton of business with the Turks. I think they even have military training relationships that they don't make a big deal about. I could almost see Israel making a strike on the Iranian nuclear facilities using Turkish overflight rights, the Turks can't be happy about the Persians getting the Bomb. The flight path is possible. Something to think about.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:47:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jeepster:
Isn't Turkey the Muslim nation with the best relationship with Israel? From what I've read, their relationship is far closer than either Nation makes too public. IMI does a ton of business with the Turks. I think they even have military training relationships that they don't make a big deal about. I could almost see Israel making a strike on the Iranian nuclear facilities using Turkish overflight rights, the Turks can't be happy about the Persians getting the Bomb. The flight path is possible. Something to think about.



With Iran announcing it has missiles capable of hitting Europe this might be a motivator for letting Turkey into the EU. Just as having Pershing missiles on the border of the USSR was the motivator for having Turkey in NATO.

A large Muslim population in the EU is NOT in our best interests. Do you think that Turkey will be allowed to quell popular opinion in a LIBERAL human rights minded EU?

All ready the Muslim minorities in France and Germany have prevented either country from sending troops into Iraq. That mission accomplished speech? Yeah, that was targeted at France and Germany to get their troops on the ground, as they promised. So sorry W, but we can't. Our internal politics will not allow us. So sorry Senator Kerry, even if you are elected we can't help you because of our internal politics. Hell, the ALMOST prevented NATO from training Iraqi troops and police.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:47:57 AM EST

fanoftheblackrifle said: I'm not super familiar with turkey's history.....but I seem to remember something about the ottoman empire and the islamic domination of portions of europe for a while....as in, while spain was having those pesky muslims invading, the turks were trying to invade eastern europe.


I'm probably wrong though. But if not.....can't see how much has changed since 800ad




No my friend, you are 100% right!! Except for the crusades where christians "recaptured" (notice the 'RE' part) a small sliver of palestine, The Christian west has been invaded and lost land to the Muslims for over 1000 years. In the west they got as far as Tours in France. In the central area they got as far as Rome. and in the east they got to Vienna, Austria. In Russia they got all of the Crimea. And they have left permanent Muslims populations in their wake. Except for Spain, Where the Spanish inquisituion took care of them (muslims). They basically said "be christian or get the fuck out!"........so they left.
If this 'Clash of civilisations' were a football game it would be Muslims- 35, Christians- 15 but at least now we got them deep in their own endzone! The religion of peace©
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:49:55 AM EST
Homer voice / mmmmm Turkey .../ end homer voice
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:03:08 AM EST
It is strategic thinking in US foreign policy (which pushes the EU to accept
Turkey!!) too, to strengthen moderate forces - and maybe make Turkey a great base
for the war on terror. Looking at the lack of people with knowledge of the arabic
language in Europe (German secret service has NOT ONE officer who speaks fluent arabic),
we need muslims who hate radicals and want to live freely from religious oppression in
this war. Remember, there was always a huuuge difference between turks and arabs-
so great that they fought each other in WWI!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:10:37 AM EST
Also interesting is Prodi citing adultery as "...what we have built in Europe over the last 50 years.”

Poor bastards.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:11:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
Why is this a problem? Just curious. Personally I hope the EU dies a horrible death.



The problem for western Europe is that they are scared of an influx of cheap labor upsetting their applecarts. I believe that there are also provisions in the EU constitution that call for limited redistribution of wealth from richer countries to poorer through taxes/aid. Turkey is so much poorer and experiencing explosive population growth that there is fear of the "sucking sound" of vanishing aid dollars.

What the Euros may fail to realize is that without an influx of labor (earners), their declining (and ageing) populations will not be able to sustain their generous welfare and retirement schemes.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:16:56 AM EST
H46driver,

Most countries in the EU already cannot support their public wellfare system anymore!

Everybody is backpedalling......

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:18:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:14:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Turkey may have a muslim population, but it has enforced secular beliefs. The army is the keeper of the traditon of Attaturk, and every time the muslims try to have it their way, the army locks and loads and tells them to stand down.



Exactly so… but as a part of the EU the Army would have zero ability to influence things. A requirement of EU membership is an apolitical armed forces, this is the danger. As I noted in my earlier posts, the Islamic fundemantalists actually welcome EU membership as it would remove the army's ability to maintain a secular society.

ANdy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:23:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By LRdrvr:
It'll accelerate the downfall and breakup of the EU in my opinion.

Yes, I agree

Maybe it's the same with Turkey... But then again, Turkey ain't Italy!!!! Huge difference. Western value system, christianity, etc.....

However Turkey does not share the basic Christian values of the rest of Europe, Italians integrated into the local comminitees with ease, however German, which has a large Turkish population is experiencing significant ethnic tension due to the turkish muslims not integrating



Andy,
...Without the EU, France and Germany are irrelivances on the World stage, Britain on the other hand would still be a significant player if it was outside Europe.....
Who are you kidding?



Financial considerations are not a guide to how big a player a country is on the World stage. Although Germany, France and Japan are financially better off, (and Germany is in financial dire straits) how much of an impact do they make politically? Little to zero… Britain still does and still can influence world events. Only Britain of the countries you mention is able to deploy significant expeditionary military forces on a global scale

Andy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:33:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By LRdrvr:
H46driver,

Most countries in the EU already cannot support their public wellfare system anymore!

Everybody is backpedalling......




Very true, one exception is Britain, although our social welfare system is rediculously generous by US standards, compared to Europe it is miserly.

In quite a number mainland EU countries Old Age pensions are set at 60-100% of national average earnings!… Britain only pays 20%. Financially Britain is still relatively a low spender in EU terms on social welfare. May Eurosceptics in Britain feel the real reason behind the EU push to get Britain to fully integrate is to draw money out of our relatively cash rich treasury to prop up the unsustainable pensions and welfare systems on the mainland.

ANdy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:35:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
Why is this a problem? Just curious. Personally I hope the EU dies a horrible death.



I believe that there are also provisions in the EU constitution that call for limited redistribution of wealth from richer countries to poorer through taxes/aid. Turkey is so much poorer and experiencing explosive population growth that there is fear of the "sucking sound" of vanishing aid dollars.



Yes, this is a major worry, the EU has a Regional Aid policy that see's vast sums of Development Aid being funneled into the poorest areas… and that would be Turkey if it joined.

Andy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:42:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
I'm not super familiar with turkey's history.....but I seem to remember something about the ottoman empire and the islamic domination of portions of europe for a while....as in, while spain was having those pesky muslims invading, the turks were trying to invade eastern europe.


I'm probably wrong though. But if not.....can't see how much has changed since 800ad

You're wrong. Turkey didn't even exist until they rebelled against the Greeks and formed a new nation in the 1920s. Ataturk, who is something like all of our founding fathers rolled into one, insisted that they'd never go anywhere unless they adopted western values. He established a separation of church and state, adopted a western alphabet, etc. Other muslim countries like Saudi Arabia would be nothing without out oil but the Turks have worked hard to delvelop a real nation. Any time the religious people start to get too much power the military steps in and slaps them down. Most (certainly not all) of the people in Turkey are Muslim but they are no more serious about it than your average American is about Christianity. If you ask them they'll claim to be a member of the religion but you ask them how often they go to church and they'll say they make it on the holidays.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:46:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 12:52:24 PM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

You're wrong. Turkey didn't even exist until they rebelled against the Greeks and formed a new nation in the 1920s. Ataturk, who is something like all of our founding fathers rolled into one, insisted that they'd never go anywhere unless they adopted western values. He established a separation of church and state, adopted a western alphabet, etc. Other muslim countries like Saudi Arabia would be nothing without out oil but the Turks have worked hard to delvelop a real nation. Any time the religious people start to get too much power the military steps in and slaps them down. Most (certainly not all) of the people in Turkey are Muslim but they are no more serious about it than your average American is about Christianity. If you ask them they'll claim to be a member of the religion but you ask them how often they go to church and they'll say they make it on the holidays.



However as part of the EU the Military would no longer be able to do that, act as guarantors of a secular society… the small but vocal Islamic Fundementalist factions welome EU membership for this very reason.

ANdy
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:49:51 PM EST

Another problem is the Undrcurrent of Islamic Fundamentalism in their politics. The dictator (he's supposed to be an elected president)
The president is elected, and can also get unelected. Their system works similar to the british where people elect people to parliament and parliament selects the person at the top.


recently banned a islamic party for being not secular enough, wow more freedom for you!
Exactly. Their constitution says that politics and religion are two very separate things and are required to stay that way. This is a large part of why Turkey is a much better country than any of the other muslim nations.


They think you can force Westernism on the peasant turks through laws. Like they have banned the wearing of the Fez cap to make themselves look more european, HA i ain't buying it! If they were truly free they would be able to wear the fez, but the elite think that by forcing turks to act western, that makes it so.
So appearance and actions don't have anything to do with behavior? When your children start dressing like gangsta rappers and crack hos because it's cool, these words will haunt you.

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