The War on Terrorism is less than four months old, and already there's a rift beginning to develop between the US and its allies.

The British labour government is beginning to question the US detention and its treatment of members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban 'unlawful combatants' at Gitmo, Cuba.

[size=5]Britain and US in rift over terrorist prisoners[/size=5]
By Toby Harnden in Washington, Andrew Sparrow, Sean O'Neill and Hamida Ghafour (Filed: 21/01/2002)

A RIFT between the Government and the Bush administration opened up last night after Donald Rumsfeld dismissed criticism of the treatment of detainees held at Camp X-Ray at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as ill-informed.

"The people who have been the most shrill, once they have more knowledge of the subject will stop being so shrill," the American defence secretary told reporters.

Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, earlier expressed his concern about photographs showing shaven-headed Taliban and al-Qa'eda prisoners kneeling and tightly manacled.

"I have asked our officials in Guantanamo Bay to establish with America the circumstances in which these photographs were taken," he said.

"Prisoners, regardless of their technical status, should be treated humanely and in accordance with customary international law."

Three inmates at Guantanamo Bay are said to have claimed to be British. There have been unconfirmed reports that one is Feroz Abbasi, 22, a former computer studies student, from Croydon, South London.

Abassi vanished more than a year ago after becoming involved with Muslim extremists at Finsbury Park mosque, north London, and telling his mother that he was going to fight in Afghanistan.

Mr Rumsfeld's remark last week that he did not feel "even the slightest concern" about the prisoners angered Labour MPs.

Robin Cook, the former foreign secretary, irritated senior Bush officials by describing Mr Rumsfeld witheringly as a "man of robust views" and saying: "The secretary of state for defence is an honourable post and we pay respect to that post, but it is not an independent post."

While the issue is worrying Britain and much of Europe, the American public and the opposition Democrats have accepted the White House view that the harsh measures are needed for security reasons.

Mr Rumsfeld, describing the 110 al-Qa'eda and Taliban captives at the base as "very tough, hard-core, well-trained terrorists", said yesterday it was wrong to suggest that they were being treated inhumanely.
*                    *                    *
The prisoners were receiving excellent medical care and "culturally appropriate food" three times a day.

"They are being allowed to practise their religion, which is not something that they encouraged on the part of others. They are clothed cleanly and they are dry and safe."

Mr Rumsfeld suggested that criticism of their treatment was an insult to the troops guarding them.

See remainder of article at:[url]
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/21/wafg21.xml&sSheet=/portal/2002/01/21/ixport.html[/url]

Lord, aren't you glad that the Afghan part of the War got over quickly and so successfully? It's beginning to appear that the memories of Sept 11th have already worn off some of our best allies.

Eric The(NoTimeToGo'Wobbly'OnUs,MrBlair)Hun[>]:)]

You [b]must[/b] have expected this Eric.

Handwringing pantywaists of the world, unite!

I think the prisoners would be better off dead.  Including Walker Taliban Ranger.

Does this Geneva Convention thing say they deserve ethnic food, prayer mats and shit like that?  I say give them bacon and let them eat the swine or starve to death.

Should have done like Swayze did just before he executed that captured Russian in Red Dawn.

"Geneva Convention, never heard of it."

I know, we are a nation of laws...this is just my scenario.  We all know the Taliban said they would torture captured soldiers.

Not the cracks, Eric -


...just the crackpots.

Britain just has an unusually high percentage of them, for a non-third world country.

MOST interesting.

I say we ship the next batch of prisoners to England and let them put their troops lives on the line.  The we can see how warm and fuzzy they treat the terrorists who's main goal is to kill as many troops as possible.

I have no idea why the US decided to either (1) take these people from their homeland (if Taliban) or (2) take these people from Afghanistan (if Al Qaeda).

Surely they could have gotten all of the intel the US needed from them by simply letting the Northern Alliance do the questioning (in the good old fashioned Afghan manner).

'A wink is as good as a nod' to the victorious Afghans, and they would have given these folks, once their intel was exhausted, a very public Islamic trial, followed by a hanging!

And as for 'Jihad' Johnny, why in the hell did we ever take custody of that POS in the first place?

Sorry, folks, our hands are tied, it appears the Afghans want to prosecute Jihad Johnny as a foreign terrorist and execute him! Let that be a lesson for any of our citizens who think that American citizenship is a universally recognized 'Get Out Of Jail Free' Monopoly card!

But now we've imported all of these troubling issues to our very doorstep!

Before long, we will be on trial, not for Sept 11th, but for what came afterwards.

Eric The(MarkMyWords)Hun[>]:)]

I think the US should stop being so diplomatic. Don't let any pictures out of that place. Don't tell anyone what is going on with the prisoners. Don't let the Red Cross visit. If Britain asks about the prisoners just ignore their questions. Stonewall everybody.

If we are detaining citizens of another country in Cuba and they don't like it then let them [b]try[/b] to come and get them.

The world should be happy that we decided to take prisoners in the first place. We weren't offered the same luxury in New York.

In kind of a "SUB-topic" within Eric's topic - why are we showing pictures of the prisoners kneeling, chained and with shaven heads and beards ??
May be that we're into message sending ?

May be that we're willing to take a little heat from the "Straw Man" in order to send this very powerful visual.

Naw, probably wrong.  But Still...........

They are OUR prisioners, the Brits need to keep their noses out of this. In fact I'd recommend that we should simply kick the journalists off the island. Let the Red Cross in and thats it.

There are a couple issues here that are quite funny.  

1:  they aren't pows, they are illegal combatants and therefore aren't covered under the geneva convention (I was told)

2:  In california, there will be a judicial hearing aobut the illegal combatants treatment but from what I hear, these prisoners can be declared a national security risk and the opinion of the court doesn't matter.

Keving67

Hey I just checked out CNNs pic from Camp X-Ray.  We even have gone to the trouble to put up a sign, in Arabic, showing the direction of Mecca. What the hell else could they ask for?

I agree with you Eric. It will be interesting to see what happens if indeed we have to "do this on our own".


Tyler

Well, let's not forget- in the Boer War, the British invented the concentration camp....

THAT should be some indication.

And another fact learned.

It seems to me that in EVERY major conflict, that our enemies have mistreated the POW's, with very little outcry from our "allies" in this excursion. Did the British try to get things changed in Viet Nam when our men were being tourtured, nd forced to live in REAL cages?
How bout the force labor that has hapened to ALL our servicemen in all major conflicts?
Sorry, but I have NO sympathy for these "POW"'s. They have taken an oath to kill everyone they could and are LUCKY to still be breathing.

[smoke]

This PC quagmire is pissen me off bigtime. Fed 3 times a day, shaven,clean and dry (possibly to keep down the cooty population [:E]) letting them practice their religion, shackled (we're not getting  them ready for an Amistad 'lightening of the load' deal! They are PRISIONERS give me a break. DAMN! Thanks again to Eric the(ya got my blood cookin again)HUN

I know a great way to get the Poms to shut up.  Convince them these prisoners are also members of Sinn Fein.  Post a few picts of Jerry Adams in their cells, take a few picts and distribute.  

In Kalifornia they will be given public housing, a social security number, a drivers license, and their children will be put in public school and taught ebonics.

1927

25-year old Charles Lindbergh flies non-stop from New York to Paris in Spirit of St Louis. The Jazz Singer, starring Al Jolson, is the first talkie movie. The first words were: "Wait a minute! You ain't heard nothing' yet!" First transatlantic phone call - at $75 for 3 minutes, half the cost of a car.

I had read somewhere that during the Philippines insurrection (after the U.S. gained control of the Philippines from the Spanish) that "Blackjack" Persing "the army general of later WWI fame" was sent to fix things.  When he captured Muslim separatists he would set up firing squads and shoot them with bullets coated in pigs’ blood (he would dip them in fresh blood in front of the prisoners).  They would then shoot 6 out of 7.  Throw the 6 dead in a pit full of dead pigs and leave the 7th go.  I cannot find this reference at the moment, but I'm still looking.  The point is, now we catch hell for cleaning them up and putting restraining devices on them during transport.  Dang. Does anyone know why we are so interested in bringing them back here anyway?  

I Cant understand why we have any prisoners?

The media kept telling us how tough & Hardcore they were & How they would never be taken alive.

We should be treating these animals like we treated the Japanese in WW2, "No Prisoners".

The way we are treating these people is a good example of our "PC WAY OF THINKING" & why in the long run we already lost this war.
History has shown You cant win a war while being "PC", You have to demonize your enemy & kill every last one.
But im just ranting (The culture correct meals these guys are being served really pisses me off)  

Whining limey pantywaists.  Perhaps we need to send these prisoners over to that notorious prison somewhere in the U.K. in which the English keep their IRA captives.  I bet their treatment gets much worse.

Post from mojo -

Give out a bounty on their left hands![:D]

Eric The(I'llSendSome$$$,JustGetMeAnAddress!)Hun[>]:)]

I was watching all this unfold last night on CSPAN.  They had the British house of commons on and Tony Blair did a good job of defending the U.S. actions towards the prisoners and told those who questioned him that he would not make any judgement on it until he got back confirmed reports verifying how they were being treated.  he was really on the hot seat.

You was a readin' my mind on that one.  

The Brits are no saints on this front.  

However, the longer this goes on without seeming like a "hot" war, the more we will hear of this kind of criticism.  In other words, the further removed we get from 9/11, without another attack, the more amorphous the threat appears to those not attacked.  It was easy in WWII to have a "no prisoners" policy because the threat was ongoing and palpable.  Also, the more it seems that we can easily defeat the enemy (didn't take long in AFGNSTN) then we will likely see a rise of the sympathy quotient.  I, for one, felt from the beginning that we were (mostly) on our own on this one.

Cracks indeed.    

"The Cracks Are Becoming Visible"

Jeez, I thought that this thread was about the way the mallrats wear their pants.

Eric. We have no allies. There are other countries whos interests coincide with our from time to time, but otherwise we are all alone in this world. If you ask the average londoner welshman or scots what they think of us the answer will not be very complementary.They seem to feel that our success has always come at their expense. My opinion has always been,fuck em.

IMO, you can aply that axiom GLOBALLY.

Brits, Isrealis, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Canada, Mexico, on and on and on...

When push comes to shove, they ALWAYS act in their own best interests. America DOES ultimately stand alone.

Which is fine. There is not a SINGLE nation that we actually need. I'm just tired of sending them hundreds of billions of dollars and getting little more than their scorn in return.

REAL tired of that.

I want to just chime in with the sentiments of this quote and Garandman's quote which followed.  I made my first trip to England in my early 20's back in 1984.  I have relatives and friends there who are basuically good people.  I met my wife over there and brought her back here to Long Island, NY.  Through the years of travel back & forth I have become VERY aware of the attitudes of many people in the UK towards us.  I'm also very aware of what life is like for millions of British people.  

    First of all the UK is basically a second rate socialist sh*t hole!  The quality of life is much lower for "most" people than they are over here in the US.  First of all crime is rampant over there.  Between home burglaries, car theft, property theft, assault and now growing gun crime.  Funny since they confiscated all handguns from law abiding people a few years ago.  My wife is from Manchester, England.  Here Mom's home has been burglarized a few times, her sister over 10 times, her brother nearly the same.  Their cars have all been stolen too.  Why does this exist?  Because these people have tolerated crime and have made excuses for it instead of dishing out some harsh punishment.  In England a homeowner is NOT allowed to harm an intruder inside THEIR OWN home.  If they hurt an intruder it is the homeowner who will be prosecuted, or as they say over there "they'll get done."  It's madness on display.  The criminals know they have the upper hand.  They fear no reprisals or consequences from their victims.  Therefore the criminals do not have ot do as much homework before breaking into the next victim's home.  Random burglarly is the order of the day.  Gun shootings are a common occurance around the greater Manchester area.  

   Add to that the fact that people are taxed viciously in order to pay for the welfare state which is out of order.  Britain has the highest illegitimacy rate in all of Europe.  No consequences of course bescause the taxpayer has to pick up the tab for the degenerate spawn which has been thrust upon them. This of course had led to a more dysfunctional, violent and anti-social society.  Personal responsibilty and accountability are not high priorities for many British people.

  Add to that the history of how our country  saved the British from a certain doom in the 40's.  We have also provided the resources and will to provide them (and Europe)with security and protection since WWII.  

  They are jealous that their country no longer projects the power & prestige it once did.  They resent America for our wealth, our power and quality of life. Granted, we are not without our own problems.  I see us upon the same road to serfdom which has given them their "great society". This is the dividend we get for saving their pathetic rear ends and protecting them for over 50 years.


    And we are supposed to conduct ourselves so as not to offend their "sensibilities"?

F-them.  Let them live in their second rate dump of a country!


              John Forsyth

Britain has been harboring terrorists for years. Anybody wonder why known terrorist leaders are allowed to freely move in London. Everybody knows they are there and Britain does nothing about them. As Bush said "If you are not with us, you are against us." It is now time to kick Britain's ass and arrest all the terrorists they harbor.

I say take all these cretins out on a boat in the Carribean and chum the waters REAL GOOD, and throw their sorry asses overboard...AND televise it for all the world to see. Then tell all the world that we don't give a rat's ass WHAT they think, and the U-freekin'-N can go to hell, and to go ahead and f*** with us is they think they're up to it. I'm sick and tired of feeding mouths that criticize me, and I'm sick and tired of putting money into hands that point guns at me. F*** THEM ALL.

Okay, I'm done. Everyone have a nice day!

In WWll anyways the treatment of Allied POW's by the Germans, was adheared to for the most
part. During Hitler's last gamble the Battle of the Bulge he gave orders that there was no time to take POW's, the objective must be captured. My partner 'truckie' Wink M. was on the point with the 106th when the Germans attacked. 14 men left out of a company, they had a vote, and voted to surrender with Wink being the holdout. He buried himself under a pile of frozen corpses and listened, as the 'Huns' machined gunned the prisoners. Wink made it back to friendly lines....after a debriefing the word got out...every German POW died before he was taken into custody.....

These Al Queda 'bad boys' should never made it back...not to POW status #1. What we have here is a shit sandwitch. No win....and paints a big target on our sorry ass, both for world opinion, and another Al Queda rally target for terrorist attacks in the US. This 'thing' is far from over, trust me...so much for PC. If your 'Al Queda,' your fishbait...period.

                                     Gib

Oh yes...when a real historical champion of human rights such as England speaks up, we should all listen and obey.

Can I get some Amens out there People!

EEERRRRIIIIIC,
BRM308 is calling youuuu !

Cracks?

Wait…let me get this right:  There are actually people in Europe and even here in America who are outraged [shock] at the “treatment” that these “detainees” are receiving?

Have these MORONS forgotten what happened on September 11? [>:/]

Do these MORONS not understand that the men whom our Marines are guarding are the SAME people that attacked us and have sworn to kill the rest of us?

Do these MORONS think for one second, if the shoe was on the other foot, that our troops would be treated as well in some Al Qaeda prison?  (Any of you remember what the [Islamic] Chechnyans did to that Russian soldier?)

Don’t these MORONS not understand anything about Islam?  Don’t they know that these people are only following exactly what the Holy Quran told them to do when dealing with infidels?  Basically…that we join, or die.

Don’t these MORONS understand that the terrorists want to turn the entire planet into a tenth century sand pile!  They are pissed off because of the primacy of Western Judeo-Christian technological society.  They are pissed off because the West has “invaded” Islamic countries.  They are pissed off because our women parade around showing off parts of their body that turns their repressed schizoid libidos into raving monsters!  They hate us because of the western influence upon their kids.  THAT has been the last straw for an entire generation of Muslim men.  They are losing the battle right in their own living rooms!  Western culture and values have permeated into their homes and their power is threatened.

Don’t these MORONS know anything about these warriors of Islam?  Don’t they know that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are not going to change…NEVER!!!  Remember that fact if you don’t get any other!  These people are NOT going to change.  They will NEVER give up trying to KILL every ONE of us!  Say it again!  They will NEVER give up trying to KILL every one of us!!!  Got it now?  That is their ONLY goal in life...DEATH to western, Christian/Jewish tech-society.  Think about that for a second.  That INCLUDES all of you Socialist Feel-Gooder MORONS in the UK too!  You must understand that!  Your western culture hasn’t prepared you for that…but you MUST come to grips with that concept.  They will accept us if we give up our culture and religions and convert to Islam and set up a society like Afghanistan, otherwise…we DIE!

This battle is just the latest in a long war between Christian societies and Islam.  It has been ongoing since the rise of Islam in the seventh century.  For the first thousand years, Islam was extremely successful and conquered much of Africa, southeastern Europe, and the Iberian Peninsula.  Islam also spread way out into the southwestern Pacific taking hold in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines.

For the past three hundred years, Islam has been on the wane.  Technocratic western culture has been the driving force in the world.  Most of the world has been colonized and conquered by Europe and America.  That has pissed a lot of Muslims off and now we are the targets.

Since these terrorists wish all of us dead, I see no alternative but to imprison all the ones we now hold for the rest of their sorry lives.  I wouldn’t make any attempts to take any more prisoners as this war goes on either.  If they wish to surrender, fine…into the POW camp.  If not, that’s OK too…fewer for the bed-wetters to get their skivvies in a bunch over.

[pissed][soapbox][pissed]

This post should be ignored.

There's no pounding of chests, no screaming for blood.
No criticism of our single ally in the world, Great Britain.

(raf, I apologize for spot-lighting your idiotic thought.)

[sniper]

I left the U.K. in 1980, returning only once in 1982 for my father's funeral. The recollections I have are from a different time and , it seems (according to jjforsyth – whose comments I accept), a different country.

I also completely agree with all those who believe that the U.K. and Europe in general, have no basis for criticizing how the country that actually suffered the 9/11 actrocity, deals with their fanatical al Qaeda prisoners. In fact, I think the Brits and the rest of Europe, should should shut the f*ck up!

However, I do take exception to the rabid ravings of cc48510 who chooses to ignore the fact that terrorism is nothing new in Europe and that for decades, Arab trained IRA terrorists, financed by U.S.$, have murdered hundreds of men women and children throughout mainland U.K. and N. Ireland.

I also take exception the comments made by Maynard, whose grasp of history and world events would seem to be surpassed by that of a small flowering shrub!

Having said all that, I am still at a loss to understand why the U.S. would decide to ship these al Qaeda fanatics to Cuba. After interrogation, could they not have been handed over to the Afghanis who could have (as many have suggested) tried them and then immediately arranged for their burial in the desert?

stcyr, I understand the IRA issue. They are as much terrorists as Al Qaeda, the PLO, Al Hamas, Al Hizbullah, etc...But, Britain seems to allow noted Arab terrorists to live freely in London and elsewhere. They are more concerned with fighting the IRA than cleaning their country of other terorists. Due to this, these terorists (Egyptian Sheiks, etc...) have been able to coordinate their efforts w/o having to worry about reprecussions. Check the list of Mosted Wanted Terrorists sometime. You will find that most have at sometime lived and moved freely within either England or Canada. But, at least those in Canada weren't major terrorist leaders.

Total bullshit.  Do you have any idea what French or Italian prisons are like?  Or Arab prisons for that matter?  I'd take Gitmo any day, even if I was a bona fide terrorist.

Have you ever read the book "Catch Me if You Can"? it's about this American scam artist who plied with rubber check scams in France.  He was busted there, and spent a year in a French prison called Perpignan.

For all their moral grandstanding about the death penalty, French prisons are downright medieval.  He only spent a year in French prison, but he did so in a cold, dank, lightless cell he could not stand upright inside, fed through the bars.  Italian prisons, he was told, were even worse.  Luckily, his next stop was a Swedish prison, which was basically an economy apartment he could not leave.

Anyway, considering the appalling conditions Americans can expectin European jails for petty crimes like passing bad checks, what bastards who plotted the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians seems rather tame.

I would have executed all of them summarily.

I fail to understand why we took the risk or spent the money to infest Cuba with these vermin.  Surely they could have been tortured to death after interrogation in Afghanistan.

If Arab men get too horny looking at their hairy women might I suggest we just castrate ALL of them?

Lets all remember where we stood on the torture of terrorists when the "War on Terrorism" bogs down abroad and turns inward. Thats when anyone who is not a leo will be required to turn in their guns."So where are you hiding your weapons, Old man? Like a cigarette, Old man? How abut this one!" It'll just be business as usual by that time. No whining.

cc48510,

I am not in any position to dispute what you say because I do not know from where you gather this intelligence (re – terrorists etc).

Consequently, I am at a loss to understand why the British Intelligence Services (the few who are not commie fags, anyway) or the Special Branch (formed to counter terrorism), would not be aware of such information.

I am at even at a far greater loss to explain why they would not act upon such information!  Any ideas?