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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:15:41 PM EDT
Damn, check out the sweet picture. Burt Rutan and company are the shiz-nit.
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:18:19 PM EDT
[#1]
absolutly amazing. That man is a genious
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:23:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Proof that if you hang a big enough pot of $$$, and unheard-of bragging rights in front of the right people anything is possible...
Commercial space flight... Hmm... Now, flying THAT would be a cool job... |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:28:09 PM EDT
[#3]
I still maintain, along with my school buddies, he is going to get someone killed with his refusal of windtunnel tests, especially tests in the transonic regime
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:33:43 PM EDT
[#4]
That he may. How many test pilots get killed in conventional tests? Space shuttles? Hmmm? Danger goes with the territory. Planerench out. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:34:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Are you in a aerospace engineering program there in GA. My buddy just transferred to a school in GA from Embry-Riddle. Something about GA's program being better than ERAU's. I'm not sure which school he's going to, but thought it may be worth mentioning. He and I worked ALCM, CALCM, ACM and ultimately W-80's together. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:36:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Yep, Ga Tech aero. And I understand that risk is a part of the buisness, but there is no reason to not test, other than to save a buck, and I wont risk someone's life and piss away their courage for a bottm line. I'm saying he is taking unnecessary risks, the same type that killed Coulumbia, Challenger, and Apollo I |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:47:19 PM EDT
[#7]
From the FAQ on Scaled's website:
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:48:47 PM EDT
[#8]
If it works....
 Hey, he wind tunnel tested the beechstarship and look how well that turned out. 
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:49:59 PM EDT
[#9]
yeah, and if you have ever done CFD work and compare it to what really happens, the CFD is sorely lacking, ESPECIALLY in the trans region of the flight envelope.
Lowspeed is easy, hypersonic is cake, trans, there are no good mathematical models. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:50:52 PM EDT
[#10]
but belfry do you support the program overall or should we continue flying the brick into orbit?
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:52:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Dont forget the Bonanza V-tail. windtunnel is not the end all be all, but it gives a good look at dynamic and static stability. Control problems are only confirmed in flight test. I am talking about aerodynamic stability |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:55:17 PM EDT
[#12]
We have been going in the WRONG direction for 30 years with the Spaceborne Barn. Hell, guns were proven to be just as good at getting satalites into orbit, the Shuttle is just an overly expensive albeit nifty means of ferrying cargo into LOW earth orbit. People like the way Rutan USED to be are the future. As soon as people start paying more attention to the bottom line, you turn into NASA |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:57:40 PM EDT
[#13]
The space shuttle orbiter was originally desinged to fly for 20 years and 100 flights, and the original wiring was warranted for only twenty years. During OV-102's OMM (and OMDP-2) we found all kinds of problems, and begged for NASA to put her in a museum. They could not do that, and flight 28 was the last one she made. -102 had some rough initial flights too, and she was basically one big MR, because she was the first one built.
We should return to orbit, but the ASO should have much more clout now and maintenance and mods should not keep getting deferred like they have been. When O'Keefe was brought in from the Budget Office he was a "yes" man and funding was being constantly cut--with -102's breakup, all of a sudden NASA gets the funding it has sorely needed for YEARS. Rutan on the other hand, will get someone or people killed. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 1:59:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Dont bash the V tail too much. Its a sweet flying plane. You just wont catch me with my feet off the rudder pedals....I know its a doctor killer, but hell, anyone cant crash anything, just give em a chance...
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:02:52 PM EDT
[#15]
When the aircraft loses control due to aerodymanic instability and we are assured that the cause was not pilot error then I'll give you credit. In the meantime I'll say it's your type of academic snobbery that usually suffocates innovation and look down upon free thinkers like Rutan. Or maybe I'm way off base..  -Niel PP-ASEL |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:04:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Bring back the Saturn V's.
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:06:01 PM EDT
[#17]
He is very creative, but reckless and stubborn. He abhors the use of pre-pregs and wants to only use wet lay-ups whenever he can-that and not using wind tunnels-gives you a bit of an idea about him.
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:06:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Bring back Goddard's first liquid fuel rocket! 
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:09:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Its not academic snobbery, its called PHYISCS. look at the 1903 wright flyer, it had a negative static margin, and the fact that the aircraft could be flown was a testiment to how good Wilbur and Orville was. When a plane is unstable, if its time to double on the unstable mode is slow enough, the pilot can compensate, if its not they will die. it doesnt matter what the pilot does in most cases. if the craft is dynamicly and staticly stable, all the pilot has to do is let go, and the craft will return to equilibrium. If its unstable, they will lose it, PEROID. And dont DARE question my innovation. My friends and I own an experimental aircraft that we've been building that will revolutionize the gen av market. At school, they reward us for outlandish ideas that work. Hell, if u want it, u can see my group's idea for a planetary sample return device. think hollow lawn dart |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:12:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Bring back the V2....
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:14:07 PM EDT
[#21]
Okay. someone fill me in on what this is, what it does, why it's cool, and why B_E hates it so much
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:14:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Its' academic snobbery when a project is put down because Scaled is not using wind tunnel testing. If Burt Rutan and his test pilots are comfortable with that then who are we to question it? I'm sure they are fully away of the risks involved. -Niel |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:15:54 PM EDT
[#23]
I have no opinion either way on Rutan. And I'm not a Beech guy (Mooney M20K).
But I have to agree with KA38 -- BRING BACK THE SATURN V. That was one cool machine. I cannot imagine strapping myself on top of that gargantuan powerplant. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:17:17 PM EDT
[#24]
How is it snobbery to want someone to do something that really isint that expensive (hell, he could get a sponser) and it will find any problems if there are any. I just dont wanna see another crew die in a fireball. Taking a calculated risk, thats one thing, being overconfident end expressing boldness to the point of stupidity, thats dangerous. Anyone remember the Russian space program. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:19:19 PM EDT
[#25]
That's nothin'! I did that last year in a Piper Cub
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:21:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Please Mr. Rutan, for the sake of the children, please wind-tunnel test SpaceShip One. Think of the children. 
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:27:13 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:37:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Back in '95 I was with CAP and we were called up to northern MN to pick of pieces of one scatterd over several miles of swampy forest. The engine hit in a wet area and made a 20ft crater. Thankfully they found the dude before we got there, his crater wasn't as deep. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 2:50:45 PM EDT
[#29]
First one to accuse the other in an online gunboard of brady tactics loses the arguement.  |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 3:55:22 PM EDT
[#30]
I have to side with belfry on this. If what he says is true, and all they have used is computational fluid dynamics (which is all theoretical), then they may be unnecessarily increasing the danger to the pilot. I realize that each time a test pilot steps foot in the cockpit he is already taking a calculated risk, I just see no reason to make that risk larger to save a few bucks. Even if it was up to me, which it isn’t, I don’t agree with you. Things do not always behave in reality as they do on paper.
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Posted: 5/13/2004 3:59:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Yup! |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 4:23:56 PM EDT
[#32]
I would take Belfry_Express up on that offer. It make for an interesting read. It reminded me of a pogo stick. Vulcan94 |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 4:27:53 PM EDT
[#33]
Gotta love the irony of someone who'never been into space, trying to knock those that have....
Ahh, the ignorance of youth. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 4:37:02 PM EDT
[#34]
No shit? sweet. I once built an orbiting space station from nothing but my old socks and glue. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 4:41:59 PM EDT
[#35]
If they do wind tunnel testing is that done with a scale model? Doesn't that throw unknowns into the mix as well? Even then, how many Mach 2.5+ wind tunnel facilities are there? Just wondering.
Oh, just read that funding is from Paul Allen, you know, one of the Microsoft guys. |
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Posted: 5/13/2004 5:27:01 PM EDT
[#36]
It seems like it's aerodynamics are OK if they flew the thing to 211,000 feet and then landed it.
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Posted: 5/14/2004 4:48:36 AM EDT
[#37]
This guy is actually out in the world DOING shit. You know, actually ACCOMPLISHING things and building machines that noone ever thought possible. And a bunch of STUDENTS are criticizing his methods? Get out into the world and when YOU do something worth a front page article THEN you can say all you want. Untill then, don't expect people to listen all that hard.
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Posted: 5/14/2004 5:06:40 AM EDT
[#38]
That is just SO COOL!
I had the pleasure of meeting Burt Rutan many, many years ago at the EAA airshow in Oshkosh. A BIG thumbs up to the Pilot of that craft!........He's got HUGE BALLS OF IRON!!! |
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Posted: 5/14/2004 5:22:17 AM EDT
[#39]
... Nope, I've met Mr. Rutan before as well. Knowing his mass properties savvy, the pilot/astronaut has HUGE BALLS OF CARBON/CARBON, IM-7 GRAPHITE EPOXY. |
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Posted: 5/14/2004 5:52:19 AM EDT
[#40]
Something is just so cool about FAA reg numbers on a craft in space.
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Posted: 5/14/2004 6:06:23 AM EDT
[#41]
There are a few different supersonic wind tunnels in the US. I believe NASA Langley in Hampton, VA has the one with the largest test section. Yes, they would use a scale model. Not to worry, though, that's how it's always been done and they use non-dimensional numbers to scale it aerodynamically as well as physically. |
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Posted: 5/14/2004 6:34:09 PM EDT
[#42]
Very cool pics:
  
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Posted: 5/14/2004 6:41:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Here is the wind tunnel test rig:
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Posted: 5/14/2004 6:50:38 PM EDT
[#44]
While I would have put it more diplomatically, this is my sentiment exactly. Most of the engineers I have known fell into one of these catagories or the other (ie. brainiac calculator drivers with little to their credit vs. moderately educated doers building stuff that worked). *Note* this is not to discredit anyone here. Just a life observation of mine. Planerench out. |
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Posted: 5/14/2004 7:00:54 PM EDT
[#45]
I will concur as far as what I see in my line of work - computer nerds who are quite smart but spend all their time blabbing about MS should or should not do... and then the people they work for that actually built companies 
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Posted: 5/14/2004 7:27:55 PM EDT
[#46]
N-number : N328KF Aircraft Serial Number : 001 Aircraft Manufacturer : SCALED COMPOSITES LLC Model : 316 Aircraft Year : 2003 Owner Name : SCALED COMPOSITES LLC Owner Address : 1624 FLIGHTLINE HANGAR 78 MOJAVE, CA, 93501 Type of Owner : Corporation Registration Date : 20-Mar-2003 Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental Approved Operations : Research and Development |
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Posted: 5/14/2004 8:09:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Uhh...You realize Spaceship One has gone in and out of transonic on this and the last flight.
It hit Mach 1.2 last flight and I'll bet it broke Mach 2 on this one. So it has crossed the transonic zone going and coming twice now. *EDIT* Article states SS1 hit Mach 2.5 yesterday. |
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Posted: 5/14/2004 9:41:54 PM EDT
[#48]
The fact that this is as high as any private manned aircraft has EVER gone is really astounding: 211,000 feet, some 40 miles/64 km..... especially considering that they only started work in earnest 3 years ago.
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Posted: 5/14/2004 10:07:35 PM EDT
[#49]
Burt Rutan: one of the most innovative composite aircraft designers in the world; 2x world record holder; just went 40 miles up.
Belfry: still studying laminar flow wing design basics in skool; critical of Burt Rutan. Reads every issue of Pop Mech cover to cover. me: in the aerospace engineering biz for ten years and still need about 60 more years of experience before I put "Aerospace Guru" next to my name. |
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Posted: 5/14/2004 10:11:22 PM EDT
[#50]
If Dick Rutan can do this, whats to stop the ChiComs from doing it?
If the Chinese have a militarized spaceplane (even an el cheapo one like Space Ship One) before the US does, NASA should be scrapped and a SERIOUS space organization established. |
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