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Posted: 5/13/2004 12:15:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 12:21:32 PM EST by Niel]
Damn, check out the sweet picture. Burt Rutan and company are the shiz-nit.


Objectives:
The third powered flight of SpaceShipOne. 55 seconds motor burn time. Handling qualities during boost and performance verification. Reaction control system use for reorientation to entry attitude. Supersonic feather stability and control.

Results:
Launch conditions were 46,000 feet and 120 knots. Motor light off occurred 10 seconds after release and the vehicle boosted smoothly to 150,000 feet and Mach 2.5. Subsequent coast to apogee of 211,400 feet. During a portion of the boost, the flight director display was inoperative, however the pilot continued the planned trajectory referencing the external horizon. Reaction control authority was as predicted and the vehicle recovered in feather experiencing 1.9M and 3.5G’s. Feather oscillations were actively damped by the pilot and the wing was de-feathered starting at 55,000 feet. The onboard avionics was re-booted and a smooth and uneventful landing made to Mojave.




Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:18:19 PM EST
absolutly amazing. That man is a genious
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:23:37 PM EST
Proof that if you hang a big enough pot of $$$, and unheard-of bragging rights in front of the right people anything is possible...

Commercial space flight... Hmm...

Now, flying THAT would be a cool job...
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:28:09 PM EST
I still maintain, along with my school buddies, he is going to get someone killed with his refusal of windtunnel tests, especially tests in the transonic regime
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:33:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
I still maintain, along with my school buddies, he is going to get someone killed with his refusal of windtunnel tests, especially tests in the transonic regime



That he may. How many test pilots get killed in conventional tests? Space shuttles? Hmmm? Danger goes with the territory. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:34:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
I still maintain, along with my school buddies, he is going to get someone killed with his refusal of windtunnel tests, especially tests in the transonic regime



Are you in a aerospace engineering program there in GA. My buddy just transferred to a school in GA from Embry-Riddle. Something about GA's program being better than ERAU's. I'm not sure which school he's going to, but thought it may be worth mentioning. He and I worked ALCM, CALCM, ACM and ultimately W-80's together.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:36:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAR-10:

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
I still maintain, along with my school buddies, he is going to get someone killed with his refusal of windtunnel tests, especially tests in the transonic regime



Are you in a aerospace engineering program there in GA. My buddy just transferred to a school in GA from Embry-Riddle. Something about GA's program being better than ERAU's. I'm not sure which school he's going to, but thought it may be worth mentioning. He and I worked ALCM, CALCM, ACM and ultimately W-80's together.




Yep, Ga Tech aero. And I understand that risk is a part of the buisness, but there is no reason to not test, other than to save a buck, and I wont risk someone's life and piss away their courage for a bottm line. I'm saying he is taking unnecessary risks, the same type that killed Coulumbia, Challenger, and Apollo I
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:47:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
I still maintain, along with my school buddies, he is going to get someone killed with his refusal of windtunnel tests, especially tests in the transonic regime



From the FAQ on Scaled's website:


Did you do wind tunnel testing?
No. All design refinements and performance predictions have been derived from Computational Fluid Dynamic tools.



Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:48:47 PM EST
If it works....

Hey, he wind tunnel tested the beechstarship and look how well that turned out.




Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
I still maintain, along with my school buddies, he is going to get someone killed with his refusal of windtunnel tests, especially tests in the transonic regime

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:49:59 PM EST
yeah, and if you have ever done CFD work and compare it to what really happens, the CFD is sorely lacking, ESPECIALLY in the trans region of the flight envelope.


Lowspeed is easy, hypersonic is cake, trans, there are no good mathematical models.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:50:52 PM EST
but belfry do you support the program overall or should we continue flying the brick into orbit?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:52:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
If it works....

Hey, he wind tunnel tested the beechstarship and look how well that turned out.




Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
I still maintain, along with my school buddies, he is going to get someone killed with his refusal of windtunnel tests, especially tests in the transonic regime





Dont forget the Bonanza V-tail. windtunnel is not the end all be all, but it gives a good look at dynamic and static stability. Control problems are only confirmed in flight test. I am talking about aerodynamic stability
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:55:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By hound:
but belfry do you support the program overall or should we continue flying the brick into orbit?



We have been going in the WRONG direction for 30 years with the Spaceborne Barn. Hell, guns were proven to be just as good at getting satalites into orbit, the Shuttle is just an overly expensive albeit nifty means of ferrying cargo into LOW earth orbit.


People like the way Rutan USED to be are the future. As soon as people start paying more attention to the bottom line, you turn into NASA
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:57:40 PM EST
The space shuttle orbiter was originally desinged to fly for 20 years and 100 flights, and the original wiring was warranted for only twenty years. During OV-102's OMM (and OMDP-2) we found all kinds of problems, and begged for NASA to put her in a museum. They could not do that, and flight 28 was the last one she made. -102 had some rough initial flights too, and she was basically one big MR, because she was the first one built.

We should return to orbit, but the ASO should have much more clout now and maintenance and mods should not keep getting deferred like they have been. When O'Keefe was brought in from the Budget Office he was a "yes" man and funding was being constantly cut--with -102's breakup, all of a sudden NASA gets the funding it has sorely needed for YEARS.


Rutan on the other hand, will get someone or people killed.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 12:59:54 PM EST
Dont bash the V tail too much. Its a sweet flying plane. You just wont catch me with my feet off the rudder pedals....I know its a doctor killer, but hell, anyone cant crash anything, just give em a chance...

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:02:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 1:03:50 PM EST by Niel]

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
People like the way Rutan USED to be are the future. As soon as people start paying more attention to the bottom line, you turn into NASA



When the aircraft loses control due to aerodymanic instability and we are assured that the cause was not pilot error then I'll give you credit. In the meantime I'll say it's your type of academic snobbery that usually suffocates innovation and look down upon free thinkers like Rutan.

Or maybe I'm way off base..

-Niel
PP-ASEL
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:04:03 PM EST
Bring back the Saturn V's.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:06:01 PM EST
He is very creative, but reckless and stubborn. He abhors the use of pre-pregs and wants to only use wet lay-ups whenever he can-that and not using wind tunnels-gives you a bit of an idea about him.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:06:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Bring back the Saturn V's.



Bring back Goddard's first liquid fuel rocket!

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:09:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Niel:

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
People like the way Rutan USED to be are the future. As soon as people start paying more attention to the bottom line, you turn into NASA



When the aircraft loses control due to aerodymanic instability and we are assured that the cause was not pilot error then I'll give you credit. In the meantime I'll say it's your type of academic snobbery that usually suffocates innovation and look down upon free thinkers like Rutan.

Or maybe I'm way off base..

-Niel
PP-ASEL




Its not academic snobbery, its called PHYISCS. look at the 1903 wright flyer, it had a negative static margin, and the fact that the aircraft could be flown was a testiment to how good Wilbur and Orville was. When a plane is unstable, if its time to double on the unstable mode is slow enough, the pilot can compensate, if its not they will die. it doesnt matter what the pilot does in most cases. if the craft is dynamicly and staticly stable, all the pilot has to do is let go, and the craft will return to equilibrium. If its unstable, they will lose it, PEROID.


And dont DARE question my innovation. My friends and I own an experimental aircraft that we've been building that will revolutionize the gen av market. At school, they reward us for outlandish ideas that work. Hell, if u want it, u can see my group's idea for a planetary sample return device. think hollow lawn dart
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:12:43 PM EST
Bring back the V2....

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:14:07 PM EST
Okay. someone fill me in on what this is, what it does, why it's cool, and why B_E hates it so much
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:14:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
Its not academic snobbery, its called PHYISCS.



Its' academic snobbery when a project is put down because Scaled is not using wind tunnel testing. If Burt Rutan and his test pilots are comfortable with that then who are we to question it? I'm sure they are fully away of the risks involved.

-Niel
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:15:54 PM EST
I have no opinion either way on Rutan. And I'm not a Beech guy (Mooney M20K).


But I have to agree with KA38 -- BRING BACK THE SATURN V. That was one cool machine. I cannot imagine strapping myself on top of that gargantuan powerplant.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:17:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 1:18:58 PM EST by Belfry_Express]

Originally Posted By Niel:

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
Its not academic snobbery, its called PHYISCS.



Its' academic snobbery when a project is put down because Scaled is not using wind tunnel testing. If Burt Rutan and his test pilots are comfortable with that then who are we to question it? I'm sure they are fully away of the risks involved.

-Niel



How is it snobbery to want someone to do something that really isint that expensive (hell, he could get a sponser) and it will find any problems if there are any. I just dont wanna see another crew die in a fireball.

Taking a calculated risk, thats one thing, being overconfident end expressing boldness to the point of stupidity, thats dangerous. Anyone remember the Russian space program.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:19:19 PM EST
That's nothin'! I did that last year in a Piper Cub
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:21:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
... I just dont wanna see another crew die in a fireball.



Please Mr. Rutan, for the sake of the children, please wind-tunnel test SpaceShip One. Think of the children.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:27:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:37:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By CFII:
Dont bash the V tail too much. Its a sweet flying plane. You just wont catch me with my feet off the rudder pedals....I know its a doctor killer, but hell, anyone cant crash anything, just give em a chance...




Back in '95 I was with CAP and we were called up to northern MN to pick of pieces of one scatterd over several miles of swampy forest. The engine hit in a wet area and made a 20ft crater. Thankfully they found the dude before we got there, his crater wasn't as deep.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 1:50:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Niel:

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
... I just dont wanna see another crew die in a fireball.



Please Mr. Rutan, for the sake of the children, please wind-tunnel test SpaceShip One. Think of the children.



First one to accuse the other in an online gunboard of brady tactics loses the arguement.




Link Posted: 5/13/2004 2:55:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 2:58:52 PM EST by ColonelKlink]
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 2:59:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By CFII:
absolutly amazing. That man is a genious



Yup!
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:23:56 PM EST

Hell, if u want it, u can see my group's idea for a planetary sample return device. think hollow lawn dart


I would take Belfry_Express up on that offer. It make for an interesting read. It reminded me of a pogo stick.



Vulcan94
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:27:53 PM EST
Gotta love the irony of someone who'never been into space, trying to knock those that have....


Ahh, the ignorance of youth.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:37:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:

And dont DARE question my innovation. My friends and I own an experimental aircraft that we've been building that will revolutionize the gen av market. At school, they reward us for outlandish ideas that work. Hell, if u want it, u can see my group's idea for a planetary sample return device. think hollow lawn dart



No shit? sweet. I once built an orbiting space station from nothing but my old socks and glue.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:41:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 3:45:41 PM EST by faldoc]
If they do wind tunnel testing is that done with a scale model? Doesn't that throw unknowns into the mix as well? Even then, how many Mach 2.5+ wind tunnel facilities are there? Just wondering.

Oh, just read that funding is from Paul Allen, you know, one of the Microsoft guys.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 4:27:01 PM EST
It seems like it's aerodynamics are OK if they flew the thing to 211,000 feet and then landed it.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 3:48:36 AM EST
This guy is actually out in the world DOING shit. You know, actually ACCOMPLISHING things and building machines that noone ever thought possible. And a bunch of STUDENTS are criticizing his methods? Get out into the world and when YOU do something worth a front page article THEN you can say all you want. Untill then, don't expect people to listen all that hard.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 4:06:40 AM EST
That is just SO COOL!

I had the pleasure of meeting Burt Rutan many, many years ago at the EAA airshow in Oshkosh.

A BIG thumbs up to the Pilot of that craft!........He's got HUGE BALLS OF IRON!!!
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 4:22:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 4:25:37 AM EST by Winston_Wolf]

Originally Posted By TUMOR:
That is just SO COOL!

I had the pleasure of meeting Burt Rutan many, many years ago at the EAA airshow in Oshkosh.

A BIG thumbs up to the Pilot of that craft!........He's got HUGE BALLS OF IRON!!!



... Nope, I've met Mr. Rutan before as well. Knowing his mass properties savvy, the pilot/astronaut has HUGE BALLS OF CARBON/CARBON, IM-7 GRAPHITE EPOXY.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 4:52:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 4:56:26 AM EST by Stoney-Point]
Something is just so cool about FAA reg numbers on a craft in space.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 5:06:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By faldoc:
If they do wind tunnel testing is that done with a scale model? Doesn't that throw unknowns into the mix as well? Even then, how many Mach 2.5+ wind tunnel facilities are there? Just wondering.

Oh, just read that funding is from Paul Allen, you know, one of the Microsoft guys.



There are a few different supersonic wind tunnels in the US. I believe NASA Langley in Hampton, VA has the one with the largest test section.

Yes, they would use a scale model. Not to worry, though, that's how it's always been done and they use non-dimensional numbers to scale it aerodynamically as well as physically.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 5:34:09 PM EST
Very cool pics:


Link Posted: 5/14/2004 5:41:29 PM EST
Here is the wind tunnel test rig:
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 5:50:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By redmenace:
This guy is actually out in the world DOING shit. You know, actually ACCOMPLISHING things and building machines that noone ever thought possible. And a bunch of STUDENTS are criticizing his methods? Get out into the world and when YOU do something worth a front page article THEN you can say all you want. Untill then, don't expect people to listen all that hard.



While I would have put it more diplomatically, this is my sentiment exactly. Most of the engineers I have known fell into one of these catagories or the other (ie. brainiac calculator drivers with little to their credit vs. moderately educated doers building stuff that worked). *Note* this is not to discredit anyone here. Just a life observation of mine. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 6:00:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By redmenace:
This guy is actually out in the world DOING shit. You know, actually ACCOMPLISHING things and building machines that noone ever thought possible. And a bunch of STUDENTS are criticizing his methods? Get out into the world and when YOU do something worth a front page article THEN you can say all you want. Untill then, don't expect people to listen all that hard.



While I would have put it more diplomatically, this is my sentiment exactly. Most of the engineers I have known fell into one of these catagories or the other (ie. brainiac calculator drivers with little to their credit vs. moderately educated doers building stuff that worked). *Note* this is not to discredit anyone here. Just a life observation of mine. Planerench out.



I will concur as far as what I see in my line of work - computer nerds who are quite smart but spend all their time blabbing about MS should or should not do... and then the people they work for that actually built companies
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 6:27:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Stoney-Point:
Something is just so cool about FAA reg numbers on a craft in space.



N-number : N328KF
Aircraft Serial Number : 001
Aircraft Manufacturer : SCALED COMPOSITES LLC
Model : 316
Aircraft Year : 2003
Owner Name : SCALED COMPOSITES LLC
Owner Address : 1624 FLIGHTLINE HANGAR 78
MOJAVE, CA, 93501
Type of Owner : Corporation
Registration Date : 20-Mar-2003
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental
Approved Operations : Research and Development

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 7:09:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 7:11:26 PM EST by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 8:41:54 PM EST
The fact that this is as high as any private manned aircraft has EVER gone is really astounding: 211,000 feet, some 40 miles/64 km..... especially considering that they only started work in earnest 3 years ago.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 9:07:35 PM EST
Burt Rutan: one of the most innovative composite aircraft designers in the world; 2x world record holder; just went 40 miles up.

Belfry: still studying laminar flow wing design basics in skool; critical of Burt Rutan. Reads every issue of Pop Mech cover to cover.

me: in the aerospace engineering biz for ten years and still need about 60 more years of experience before I put "Aerospace Guru" next to my name.


Link Posted: 5/14/2004 9:11:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 9:12:32 PM EST by StormSurge]
If Dick Rutan can do this, whats to stop the ChiComs from doing it?

If the Chinese have a militarized spaceplane (even an el cheapo one like Space Ship One) before the US does, NASA should be scrapped and a SERIOUS space organization established.
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