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9/23/2020 3:47:02 PM
Posted: 12/17/2009 10:47:55 AM EDT
In the past 12 hours i've had heated discussions with 4 other college students all defending the ideals of socialism, and condemning capitalism.  This came out of the whole health care thing... But it went beyond just claiming our money should be taken for the good of everyones health, they boldly promoted the ideal of socialism.  The capitalism is evil, corrupt and destroying the planet!  One was equating opportunity with basically free-hand me outs, all though he wouldn't admit thats what it was.

So where is this coming from, are you guys seeing more of this, is it not just the young people?  They don't seem to grasp the seriousness of it and im worried for the future. What they were saying sounded exactly like communist propaganda "SOCIALISM IS FREEDOM" type stuff

i'd like to hear what you guys think? and tips on what to say to them, its almost like they're brain washed
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:19:46 AM EDT
There's no doubt, society is in bad shape.  I'll say I was one of those brain-dead people only a few years ago, although I was lucky enough to be raised by Conservatives so I started off on a decent path towards appreciating Capitalism for the right reasons.  With the help of a friend I discovered Ayn Rand's work, and I've taken it to heart.  For years I debated my Liberal friends to no avail.  Now, however, I understand more of the fundamentals behind our discussions/debates, so we can get to the heart of the matter without hours of useless bantering.

I'll just say that the morality behind the arguments of the Left and most of the Right (religious conservatives, libertarians, etc.) is one in the same - Altruism.

The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.


As long as this morality is the foundation on which the battle between Socialism and Capitalism is fought, Capitalism will never win.  In fact, it has been slowly dying ever since this nation was founded.  And unfortunately, not enough of us have been armed with the ability to defend through reason what we believe to be right.

I think this is a timely article considering Chavez just gave a speech to the UN on how Capitalism should be destroyed, and the crowd cheered...

http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/capitalisms-greatest-salesman/
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 11:24:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 11:28:52 AM EDT by STRIKE504]
The liberals have taken over the school systems. You know the whole "those that can't do, teach" thing. No offense to teachers on this board. The Teachers with the socialist agenda can't function in a competitive capitalist environment, see teacher unions, tenure, etc. They no longer teach students how to think and to problem solve, they simply promote what to think and to fall in line with the majority (even though they're views are not, yet anyways.) Though they are not always successful, I am a product of the California school system and am a rabid anti communist, and a strict constitutionalist. I believe that is also a problem, no one reads the constitution and how perfect a document it is; instead they cite how the founders were racists and only wanted to count African slaves as 3/5ths of a person, all the while ignoring how the DEMOCRAT slave owners wanted to count them as 1 whole person (not out of the goodness of their heart) to gain more power through the census. The liberals think they are so smart because of their education (indoctrination) that they know what is best. They are in love with the socialist idea, which sounds reasonable on paper (rainbows and unicorns and all that) but they completely ignore that over 100 million people were killed in the 20th century due to socialist/communist regimes.

Edit: They also cite fairness as the reason for socialism, but it is not fair, take from the haves to give to the have-nots.
Yet capitalism is the most fair playing field, we may not start off on the same playing field, but we all have the opportunity to succeed if we choose to.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:43:30 PM EDT
I just had this email exchange with someone I work with.  She asked if I'm angry with banks, wall street and multi-national corporations:

No, and here is why and what irks me with far left wingnuts.

They say their for small business.  So, lets say I start a small business and they're happy with that.  Now, lets say I'm a good businessman and I grow my business.  They say thats good for the economy (which it is).  Lets say the business continues to grow.  Now, I suddenly become the bad guy by having a large business (which I built) and I'm not giving my "fair share" to the little guy.  The bigger I grow my business, the bigger the "bad guy" I become.  Its a double standard.

Wall street has power because we give them money.  If we don't invest in stocks, then they lose their power.  Banks get their power from the "I want it now" mentality.  If you save for a new car and buy in cash, then banks have no power.  Multi-national corporations are similar to what I wrote above plus the far left makes it hostile to employ in the states.  If you and I are competing for a certain market, how am I going to get the edge.  We have to sell the same thing for the same price or people won't buy my product.  We pay the same federal payroll taxes, we pay near the same state taxes (depending on where we have our companies) and we pay the same utilities and overhead.

The only difference you and I have are employee pay and advertising.  If we assume that we pay the same in advertising, then employee pay is the only difference.  Let's say 10% of the product price is American employee payroll.  If I move my company overseas, I can reduce that to 5%.  That means I can either bank an additional 5% or I can undercut your price by 5%.  Either way, the far left will call this out as unfair business practice.

Obama and his "team" want a quazi-marxist system where everything is equal and utopic.  The problem is there will always be haves and have-nots.  It all depends on which side of the fence you are on.


Bear in mind, I'll buy American whenever possible but that is my personal choice.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 4:29:28 PM EDT
Ask them how they are paying for college.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 5:12:56 PM EDT

There's not much point in having a discussion about the merits of capitalism or socialism without first operationalizing these terms.  People speak of capitalism as if its a monolithic block, when it reality there are myriad of variations of the model and dozens of different ways to categorize free market economies. German capitalism looks much different than the British model, which varies from Japan, which is different still from Singapore's model.  Arguing about socialism is even more of a problem, as the term is SO loosely used it's difficult to discern what people mean when they talk about it. Are you using it here in the Marxian sense (I.E. the abolition of private property through class revolution) or in some broader and much more vague sense?  I think too often it's used in the latter, with the intent of mobilizing bias against any policy or political figure that maintains a left of center position. People aren't smart enough to debate the merits of policies so they brand them with pejorative terms to discredit them.

A big problem in the debate is that too many people are poorly or totally uneducated in political economy. They throw around terms like socialism and communism and have never read Marx. They rave about the merits of capitalism and have never read Smith. They assume humans have an innate propensity toward market activity and have never even heard of Polanyi.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 12:55:47 AM EDT
these are all good points, im still reading the article on Altruism, very interesting concept im not familiar with

i haven't read Marx but i've read about it and its criticisms in theory and practice, as well as communism, i dont want to blindly follow one side or the other, capitalism has flaws but is a proven functional system, socialism, loosely applied to the various socialist states that have come and gone, to me clearly shows how socialism is doomed to fail in the economical sense, and with regards to human/civil rights.  ya ya China is still truckin, especially now that they've discovered the wonders of capitalism

as to the operationalization of the terms, we were definitely throwing them around as stereotypes, i use socialism/socialist in the sense that it is taking from the "haves" and giving to the "have nots", to me capitalism is an economy run by the people with limited regulation from the government, ive only taken one econ class though i really dont know the intricacies of it all, only what i see happening in the world around me

what the liberal/socialist perspective seems to entirely ignore is that in regards to the "working classes" having the power, well that simply does not and will not ever exist, 300 million people cant all share something, that so many communist regimes have fooled so many people into believing that is incredible.  The only alternative is therefore a social elite in control, the government, which holds all the "means of production", as can be seen in every real life "socialist" regime, and at that point everything the government does is for the good of the people, not the individual, nor any group of individuals in reality as obviously nobody is better off living under authority, and it all just leads to totalitarianism because every aspect of life must be controlled for the good of the people/state/god-figure

the liberal argument to this tends to be "nu-uh", that wouldn't happen here, it would never go that far...if proof in multiple countries and hundreds of millions of murdered, starved, oppressed people, isnt enough to convince them otherwise, well hell i dont know what is

if you guys havent seen this documentary about the DPRK  Welcome to North Korea
its terrifying that millions of people are being subjected to this ridiculousness in the real world
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 5:00:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By vxtip545:
these are all good points, im still reading the article on Altruism, very interesting concept im not familiar with


Very few in this country are familiar with it.  It's somewhat shocking to read about it and understand it, because we have been raised in a culture that believes self-sacrifice in the service of others is the greatest virtue.  Just remember McCain's campaign slogan, "Country First".  

I would suggest browsing around in the Lexicon I linked to see what else might pique your interest and challenge your current concepts.

Link Posted: 12/18/2009 7:21:29 AM EDT
Every time or one of our children steps into a public school or university classroom, they are indoctrinated into marxist ideology. This has been going on since the 50s and is a deliberate effort to convert Americans to socialism/communism, destroy the family structure and religion, and make morality relative.

Now the college students of the 50s, 60s, and 70s are running the country and you can plainly see what is happening.

This is a spreading disease and the war is on for the hearts and minds of our children. In 20 years we will be indistinguishable from the old soviet union if we continue down the road we are traveling.

The only difference between the soviet empire of the 20 century and what we are becoming is that we will be just one of many poor nation-states that answers to a one world totalitarian communist government. Additionally, any wealth we once possessed will belong to the state. Individual prosperity, liberty, and private property will be a thing of the past.

You think this is some wack-job tin foil hat conspiracy theory? Wake up and turn on the fucking news, or walk up to any college student and ask them about how they feel about their country or the Constitution.

We are in the endgame here folks. If we don't turn off American Idol and wake up, we will be enslaved by the globalists. It's happening right now; as I type this.

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -Samuel Adams

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.” ~Patrick Henry~
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 7:38:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 7:39:13 AM EDT by al-talib]
Nonsense. I'm a college student (one of many veterans on my campus who served multiple tours in Iraq and doesn't hate the U.S. or our constitution) on what has historically been considered among the most Liberal campuses in the country (University of California, Berkeley) and can tell you there is NO effort to indoctrinate students into anything. I would bet that most of the people who propagate this kind of nonsense have never even stepped foot into a university classroom. I just finished a course on political economy and we spent all of about half a class studying Marxist theory. By contrast, we spent considerably more time studying Hayek, Friedman and Smith. Your arguments are silly and aren't based on any substantive empirical evidence.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 7:40:25 AM EDT
I have a masters degree at a university in a "conservative" area and was neck deep in it every day.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:12:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By al-talib:can tell you there is NO effort to indoctrinate students into anything



That's the point of indoctrination, to make you believe something without realizing it has been spoon fed to you in a certain way.  Also, there are PLENTY of studies on the liberal bias in education...

http://www.amazon.com/One-Party-Classroom-Professors-Indoctrinate-Undermine/dp/0307452557/
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 8:42:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JonnyC:

I'll just say that the morality behind the arguments of the Left and most of the Right (religious conservatives, libertarians, etc.) is one in the same - Altruism.

The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.




Libertarians are not altruists and your explanation of altruism is wrong.

Altruism -
1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

as you can see there is no mention of "right to exist", "justification of existence" "moral duty".

To the OP, yes socialism is on the rise particularly on college campuses where all the lefties make up the faculty and continue to indoctrinate the students.

Link Posted: 12/18/2009 9:16:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 9:23:18 AM EDT by al-talib]
I haven't read this book by horowitz, however, I've read other work he's published and wouldn't consider him an objective or unbiased source. The bottom line is for every Horowitz you can produce, I can point to someone on the far left (John Taylor Gatto and Naomi Klein for instance) who would argue that Education is a tool by capitalist elites to indoctrinate youth to accept the tenets of capitalism and make them better workers. Both arguments are ridiculous and the methodology (if any is even applied) is poor.

I'm  a senior now and in my four years in college I've had ONE professor who has openly advocated the tenets of Marxist ideology (and he encouraged people to dissent and support alternate views), and again this is at Berkeley. My lone anecdotal account may not apply to all schools all over the country, but I think I keep pace with scholarly literature pretty well, and haven't read a whole lot of pier reviewed scholarly articles published in the last 20 year that take such a stance. The debate on Marxism is largely over, and it didn't win. While many students and faculty may not be ardent supporter of laissez faire, most also don't support Marxist theory. Today, the question is (and has been for the last 60 years) what kind of market economy to build. If you think there's only one model for capitalism, and anything that deviates from this is socialism, then I would urge you to check again.

Finally, I would say no one has provided a shred of empirical evidence to support the outlandish notion that the U.S. is becoming another Soviet Union, I would argue because none actually exists. We have one of the most liberal markets of all capitalist states. There is no effort to centralize the means of production and no effort to completely subvert the market's pricing mechanism. Are their regulations and government institutions to regulate the market? Certainly. Even the most liberal economists (Smith, Friedman, Hayek, Seldon) understand that the market is not perfect and some restraints need to be placed to correct for market failures.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 10:00:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Isenhelm:
Originally Posted By JonnyC:

I'll just say that the morality behind the arguments of the Left and most of the Right (religious conservatives, libertarians, etc.) is one in the same - Altruism.

The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.




Libertarians are not altruists and your explanation of altruism is wrong.

Altruism -
1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

as you can see there is no mention of "right to exist", "justification of existence" "moral duty".

To the OP, yes socialism is on the rise particularly on college campuses where all the lefties make up the faculty and continue to indoctrinate the students.



When Altruism is the basic moral foundation of a social system, then yes, Ayn Rand's definition is correct.  If it is right to be self-less, then society will demand that from you - i.e. you don't have the right to live for your own sake in this social system.

Actually you are right, I shouldn't have lumped Libertarians in there with the Socialist and Conservative altruists.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 10:10:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By al-talib:
I haven't read this book by horowitz, however, I've read other work he's published and wouldn't consider him an objective or unbiased source. The bottom line is for every Horowitz you can produce, I can point to someone on the far left


So there is no truth then, only two extremes battling it out for the minds of those in between?

Today, the question is (and has been for the last 60 years) what kind of market economy to build. If you think there's only one model for capitalism, and anything that deviates from this is socialism, then I would urge you to check again.


So you need to balance freedom and respect for individual rights with the right amount of enslavement through physical force?

There is no effort to centralize the means of production and no effort to completely subvert the market's pricing mechanism.


You're right, it's more of a Fascist model: control the means of production and distribution of wealth, then blame all failures on "self-interest" and "greed".
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 2:28:02 PM EDT
college is always going to be full of "socialist" little kiddies..

They don't have homes, land, you know...BILLS.
They don't have real jobs, they either don't work at all or if they do it's some part time job or some cosmetic job with no actual career promise.
They have no life experience, they just listen to their professors and sit there and soak up all the space cadet bullshit that gets spewed into the "classrooms".

Whenever they get out of school and get a real job and earn their first real pay check and see that ten percent of it went to taxes they'll change their little tune.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:06:22 PM EDT
Hell yes they are spreading we are l;ooking down the barrel of nationalized health care. They work incrementaly and have foisted most of the communist manifesto on U.S.
Is it a conspiracy? Hell Yes! They planted the seeds here after the revolution and they have been getting more home grown since.

Read "The Naked Communist" by W. Cleon Skousen. Library of congress # 58-14464 He is a Mormon author and his book is written with some religion in it. But to contrast the godless communist.
You will learn alot in that book. The term "useful idiot" will become meaningful and apparent toYou. The elite who think they are doing good won't view themselves as communist but because it "Helps some one" in their eyes it can't be wrong.

Obama is a socialist/ communist. His intentions are not freedom.

I'm not sure of the origin of this quote but it means alot to those who understand it's meaning. You might give it to a lib friend to digest.

"Free people are not equal.
Equal people are not free!"

Equality of freedom and equality of law was what this country was founded on, not equality of means or goods. But to be free from his means and goods being "redistributed".

I could go on and on. The reality is this nation will go full socialist on Monday morning at 1:00AM. The sad part is I think we will let it go that way. I will campaign against the socialists more than I ever have in 2010,2012. In the mean time get out of debt, buy food and bullets. Find freethinking people near You.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 8:32:43 PM EDT
Only advice I have is that you warn them to beware the false promises offered to them.

I write this as I watch C-SPAN 2 at 12:32AM 12/21/2009.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 2:50:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RyanH:
Every time or one of our children steps into a public school or university classroom, they are indoctrinated into marxist ideology. This has been going on since the 50s and is a deliberate effort to convert Americans to socialism/communism, destroy the family structure and religion, and make morality relative.

Now the college students of the 50s, 60s, and 70s are running the country and you can plainly see what is happening.

This is a spreading disease and the war is on for the hearts and minds of our children. In 20 years we will be indistinguishable from the old soviet union if we continue down the road we are traveling.

The only difference between the soviet empire of the 20 century and what we are becoming is that we will be just one of many poor nation-states that answers to a one world totalitarian communist government. Additionally, any wealth we once possessed will belong to the state. Individual prosperity, liberty, and private property will be a thing of the past.

You think this is some wack-job tin foil hat conspiracy theory? Wake up and turn on the fucking news, or walk up to any college student and ask them about how they feel about their country or the Constitution.

We are in the endgame here folks. If we don't turn off American Idol and wake up, we will be enslaved by the globalists. It's happening right now; as I type this.

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -Samuel Adams

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.” ~Patrick Henry~


exactly. too bad no one prevented the ruin of our country.
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