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Posted: 4/23/2013 9:02:15 PM EDT
I mean C'mon 2 college age fucktards can set of two bombs easily amongst all this big brother type "security" I mean its all just a joke yet we will surely all lose more civil rights and give more billions  to "improve security" because of this debacle wont we? What a joke!
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:12:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DSAFAL:
I mean C'mon 2 college age fucktards can set of two bombs easily amongst all this big brother type "security" I mean its all just a joke yet we will surely all lose more civil rights and give more billions  to "improve security" because of this debacle wont we? What a joke!


They are a joke till they kick your door in and black bag you.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:13:52 PM EDT
Small cells can be extremely tough to track.  You need to have a footprint to be discovered.  As long as there are small groups that are smart about their operations, they will be able to attack with little or no warning.  Probably should have nabbed these guys, though.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:15:43 PM EDT
Don't you mean FBI?
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:19:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 9:20:18 PM EDT by DSAFAL]
True..understand I'm hypercritical of the "police state" and I DO understand that there is NO way to go after small or rogue cells or lone wolf individuals..hence I'm inclined to throw out the "baby with the bathwater"..in other words I want NONE of it..I want the old America back but that  isn't gonna happen anytime soon..just funny though as they want to increasingly expand immigration and let all these folks that hate us in the country..that's the contradiction that I dont understand and that I dont think they can justify.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:20:46 PM EDT
If you have a better national level strategy that complies with US Code and is constitutional while working with the limited budgets and manpower that they have, let us all know.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:21:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 9:23:06 PM EDT by Garand1911]
Are you talking about homeland security in general, or DHS ?
DHS doesnt deal much with home grown terrorism, thats more of a FBI job



Israel prolly has the best anti-terrorism plan in action, but not even they can prevent 100% of all terrorism.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:26:18 PM EDT
What do you have against the Coast Guard OP?
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:27:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 9:31:09 PM EDT by DSAFAL]
Ah FED DC I just wish we would have a better foreign policy that wouldn't drive all these Islamist idiots to attack us all the time in the name of their all mighty "Jihad"
....in other words I wish our DOS and general American Foreign policies would STOP pissing them off all the time[BD

umm nothing against the Coast Guard where did you get that?

I equate most Muslims with fireants as they are perfectly happy killing each other UNLESS there is an outsider that makes itself a target to be attacked..and we seem to be allowing ourselves to be that target to be attacked most of the time these days..even when we are SUPPORTING the Moslem brotherhood and the like against Syria (something I STILL dont get)
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:28:42 PM EDT
Well, you sound like you already know the answer but lets see what others think.

FBI had already made contact with older brother multiple times, including his mother back in their home country becuase of his history with known terrorist web sites and contacts

Reported as a missing person to the FBI around a month earlier by his family, FBI actively trying to locate him (as a missing person). This means they really got to dig through his shit for investigative leads, which also means they had to of known exactly what the fuck he was up to

This is fail on a grand scale but what I really want to know is how the investigators on both of the above mentioned details couldn't pick this guys face out in 2 seconds when the FBI went public with it
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:28:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 9:29:38 PM EDT by ARDestructo]
So since  Homeland Security can't keep us safe,  can we go back to being unsafe without them?
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:30:44 PM EDT
The FBI and local law enforcement is plenty in my opinion.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:31:36 PM EDT



Originally Posted By DSAFAL:


Ah FED DC I just wish we would have a better foreign policy that wouldn't drive all these Islamist idiots to attack us all the time in the name of their all mighty "Jihad"

....in other words I wish our DOS and general American Foreign policies would STOP pissing them off all the time[BD



umm nothing against the Coast Guard where did you get that?


Guess what department CG is under?

 
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:32:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 9:33:08 PM EDT by DSAFAL]
Originally Posted By realwar:
The FBI and local law enforcement is plenty in my opinion.

THAT is my only point...thank you for making it for me!
All this "Gestapo" "homeland security" crap is JUST that... CRAP!
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:32:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DSAFAL:
I mean C'mon 2 college age fucktards can set of two bombs easily amongst all this big brother type "security" I mean its all just a joke yet we will surely all lose more civil rights and give more billions  to "improve security" because of this debacle wont we? What a joke!


Uh,yes,pretty much.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:32:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDestructo:
So since  Homeland Security can't keep us safe,  can we go back to being unsafe without them?



Yes please.  Then end the drug war and send 30-50% of LE to the unemployment line with them.

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:33:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DSAFAL:
I mean C'mon 2 college age fucktards can set of two bombs easily amongst all this big brother type "security" I mean its all just a joke yet we will surely all lose more civil rights and give more billions  to "improve security" because of this debacle wont we? What a joke!


We aren't paying enough taxes to fund them.

They need more money.

Give up more of your paycheck to support Homeland Security!
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:34:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 9:34:41 PM EDT by DocBull]
Around the time of the sequster fear the almighty dyke flat out said "cut my money and there will be more attacks and bombings".

Fast forward to the whole fucky boston bullshit, she gave a detailed time line of how it would play out and he would be arrested on  Friday and at the end of the day.




A whole lot of fucky bullshit.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:34:34 PM EDT
You guys do understand abit it seems..there IS NO SAFETY okay no matter how much they tax you and make you pay for it there IS NO SECURITY! GOT IT?
That is my only point!
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:35:30 PM EDT
Security theater.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:36:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DSAFAL:
You guys do understand abit it seems..there IS NO SAFETY okay no matter how much they tax you and make you pay for it there IS NO SECURITY! GOT IT?
That is my only point!



Agreed.  

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:39:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By DSAFAL:
You guys do understand abit it seems..there IS NO SAFETY okay no matter how much they tax you and make you pay for it there IS NO SECURITY! GOT IT?
That is my only point!



Agreed.  


Not True At All.

The more money we throw at something, the more it works.

If nothing else, we can crush the terrorist under the bureaucracy that we call Homeland Security.  Just the mere body mass of such an organization is enough to smother any man.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:40:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By DSAFAL:
You guys do understand abit it seems..there IS NO SAFETY okay no matter how much they tax you and make you pay for it there IS NO SECURITY! GOT IT?
That is my only point!



Agreed.  


Not True At All.

The more money we throw at something, the more it works.

If nothing else, we can crush the terrorist under the bureaucracy that we call Homeland Security.  Just the mere body mass of such an organization is enough to smother any man.


Well said comrade.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:45:14 PM EDT
HAHA... all hail the almighty police state!
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:49:51 PM EDT
Don't think this really lies on DHS..

However; aside from the government over spending, there are people doing work attempting wholeheartedly to make things "safer". Unfortunately, shit will always happen. We can't stop everything that happens.

There's always gonna be "evil" out there, and undetected. Yes, there was some serious (in a sense) incompetence, but not anymore than there was that lead to 9/11 and other shit.

Someone is always gonna drop the ball one time or another.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:50:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 9:51:42 PM EDT by Mattl]
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By DSAFAL:
You guys do understand abit it seems..there IS NO SAFETY okay no matter how much they tax you and make you pay for it there IS NO SECURITY! GOT IT?
That is my only point!



Agreed.  


Not True At All.

The more money we throw at something, the more it works.

If nothing else, we can crush the terrorist under the bureaucracy that we call Homeland Security.  Just the mere body mass of such an organization is enough to smother any man.



Remember reading somewhere you are several times more likely to be killed by a cop than a terrorist in the U.S.

He is exactly correct that it is security theater, this show however is to expedite the state's endless power grabs.    They cannot keep you safe and at a tipping point they become a bigger threat to you than the threat they were supposed to"protect' you from.  The drug war was the first artificial bubble to inflate state power and it is still going full speed ahead and the "War on Terror" will blow another bubble inside of the existing bubble.


Can you imagine the LE response in non metropolitan areas, say coordinated attacks in areas with populations under 500K???  Would there even be a response?  An armed and vigilant citizenry would be the better choice.

I'd institute localized militia systems and repeal arms control in the country.  Not piss the taxpayers money away for a theater show with a massive bureaucrasy to support it.

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:55:10 PM EDT
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:57:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.


No, can you please reference a sound?
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 9:58:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DSAFAL:
True..understand I'm hypercritical of the "police state" and I DO understand that there is NO way to go after small or rogue cells or lone wolf individuals..hence I'm inclined to throw out the "baby with the bathwater"..in other words I want NONE of it..I want the old America back but that  isn't gonna happen anytime soon..just funny though as they want to increasingly expand immigration and let all these folks that hate us in the country..that's the contradiction that I dont understand and that I dont think they can justify.


that america is never coming back ever
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:00:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 10:02:00 PM EDT by DSAFAL]
I know fucking sad aint it? This whole generation will NEVER know stuff the way I used to know it as !
I never used to feel old...I do now..
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:03:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DSAFAL:
I know fucking sad aint it? This whole generation will NEVER know stuff the way I used to know it as !



Depends on which way the inevitable cultural correction turns.  It will either be a boot on a throat or near anarchism.

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:04:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDestructo:
So since  Homeland Security can't keep us safe,  can we go back to being unsafe without them?


Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:10:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Oh yeah, a bunch of cops running around searching half of a city or trying to blow away 2 paper delivery ladies in LA is sooooo much better. I think the folks actually LIVING IN the area know more about it and who belongs and who doesn't than the army of idiots who descend on them in the name of public safety. Who was it that found terrorist number 2 exactly ?? Hint: it wasn't the .gov agencies, even though they had over 12 hours to so.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:19:00 PM EDT
Its all about the money, of course they can not prevent the big things from happening but as long as they make a profit it will continue.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:19:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 10:21:45 PM EDT by Mattl]
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Versus largely unthinking unprincipled thugs who will cross every line put in front of them as long as they think they have political cover or they are assured their fellow "Sheepdogs" will cover for them?  Compound that with the majority of the "Sheepdogs" hold the Us Vs. Them view of the public they supposedly serve.

I did not say vigilante groups or lynch mobs, I was hinting at giving a large chunk of the male population some training and the ability to seek out more of it and giving them the potential to organize and coordinate at a local level.

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:23:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Oh yeah, a bunch of cops running around searching half of a city or trying to blow away 2 paper delivery ladies in LA is sooooo much better. I think the folks actually LIVING IN the area know more about it and who belongs and who doesn't than the army of idiots who descend on them in the name of public safety. Who was it that found terrorist number 2 exactly ?? Hint: it wasn't the .gov agencies, even though they had over 12 hours to so.


Hint: The target was Mobile.  They were looking for a needle inside of a haystack.  That civilian is lucky he didn't get his head blown off when he lifted the cover off that boat.

You guys keep living your visions of grandeur vigilantism.  We should just get rid of all law enforcement. You honestly think a bunch of civilians running around wouldn't hurt innocent bystanders?  The police are people.  The civilians are people.  BOTH, are going to make mistakes.  NEITHER, are perfect.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:24:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Versus largely unthinking unprincipled thugs who will cross every line put in front of them as long as they think they have political cover or they are assured their fellow "Sheepdogs" will cover for them?  Compound that with the majority of the "Sheepdogs" hold the Us Vs. Them view of the public they supposedly serve.

I did not say vigilante groups or lynch mobs, I was hinting at giving a large chunk of the male population some training and the ability to seek out more of it and giving them the potential to organize and coordinate at a local level.



Who's going to pay for it?
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:27:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 10:29:02 PM EDT by StretchMaK]
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Versus largely unthinking unprincipled thugs who will cross every line put in front of them as long as they think they have political cover or they are assured their fellow "Sheepdogs" will cover for them?  Compound that with the majority of the "Sheepdogs" hold the Us Vs. Them view of the public they supposedly serve.

I did not say vigilante groups or lynch mobs, I was hinting at giving a large chunk of the male population some training and the ability to seek out more of it and giving them the potential to organize and coordinate at a local level.



Who's going to pay for it?



Isn't the DHS budget like 50 billion or so.


Just looked it up. 46.9 for last year.

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:29:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Versus largely unthinking unprincipled thugs who will cross every line put in front of them as long as they think they have political cover or they are assured their fellow "Sheepdogs" will cover for them?  Compound that with the majority of the "Sheepdogs" hold the Us Vs. Them view of the public they supposedly serve.

I did not say vigilante groups or lynch mobs, I was hinting at giving a large chunk of the male population some training and the ability to seek out more of it and giving them the potential to organize and coordinate at a local level.



Who's going to pay for it?



Isn't the DHS budget like 50 billion or so.



Ok, so the government pays to train civilians to organize and perform law enforcement.

I do not see the difference between the Officers and group trained by the government to do the same job.  Except maybe uniforms.

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:31:51 PM EDT
The joke is on us.



Attacks like that cannot be stopped, they will continue as long as there are people here who want to do them.




Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:36:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Versus largely unthinking unprincipled thugs who will cross every line put in front of them as long as they think they have political cover or they are assured their fellow "Sheepdogs" will cover for them?  Compound that with the majority of the "Sheepdogs" hold the Us Vs. Them view of the public they supposedly serve.

I did not say vigilante groups or lynch mobs, I was hinting at giving a large chunk of the male population some training and the ability to seek out more of it and giving them the potential to organize and coordinate at a local level.



Who's going to pay for it?



Isn't the DHS budget like 50 billion or so.



Ok, so the government pays to train civilians to organize and perform law enforcement.

I do not see the difference between the Officers and group trained by the government to do the same job.  Except maybe uniforms.



Doesn't have to be the government.  Plenty of private trainers.  Having your top tier trainers standardize a curriculum would not be that difficult, nor would it be hard for industry to standardize equipment.  You can buy your own rifle and your own budget training rifle.

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:37:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 10:41:54 PM EDT by 56type]
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Oh yeah, a bunch of cops running around searching half of a city or trying to blow away 2 paper delivery ladies in LA is sooooo much better. I think the folks actually LIVING IN the area know more about it and who belongs and who doesn't than the army of idiots who descend on them in the name of public safety. Who was it that found terrorist number 2 exactly ?? Hint: it wasn't the .gov agencies, even though they had over 12 hours to so.


Hint: The target was Mobile.  They were looking for a needle inside of a haystack.  That civilian is lucky he didn't get his head blown off when he lifted the cover off that boat.

You guys keep living your visions of grandeur vigilantism.  We should just get rid of all law enforcement. You honestly think a bunch of civilians running around wouldn't hurt innocent bystanders?  The police are people.  The civilians are people.  BOTH, are going to make mistakes.  NEITHER, are perfect.


No more so a danger to innocent bystanders than the guys going door-to-door with MP-5's wanting to search everything in a 10 block radius. Anyone could have gotten their head blown off from discovering the guy so what's your point ?? Hell the civilian had more balls checking it out BEFORE he called LE to come get the guy since he wasn't trained and running around in full body armor, so I guess there goes the arguement that only the .gov trained "operators" are fit to handle these situations..The LE got to do things their way for over 10 hours, the lowly citizen managed to get it done in a few minutes after being told he could leave his house. The results speak for themselves.

ETA: LE had all the "hay" hiding in their homes so it was more like a needle in a parking lot.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:40:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Versus largely unthinking unprincipled thugs who will cross every line put in front of them as long as they think they have political cover or they are assured their fellow "Sheepdogs" will cover for them?  Compound that with the majority of the "Sheepdogs" hold the Us Vs. Them view of the public they supposedly serve.

I did not say vigilante groups or lynch mobs, I was hinting at giving a large chunk of the male population some training and the ability to seek out more of it and giving them the potential to organize and coordinate at a local level.



Who's going to pay for it?



Isn't the DHS budget like 50 billion or so.



Ok, so the government pays to train civilians to organize and perform law enforcement.

I do not see the difference between the Officers and group trained by the government to do the same job.  Except maybe uniforms.



Doesn't have to be the government.  Plenty of private trainers.  Having your top tier trainers standardize a curriculum would not be that difficult, nor would it be hard for industry to standardize equipment.  You can buy your own rifle and your own budget training rifle.


Agian, who is going to pay the masses to go to training?  Are you going to tax everyone so that the men on your town can go to this training?
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:45:39 PM EDT
Their stated objective is to secure the "homeland".  But the unstated and primary goal of people who work for homeland security, like all people who work for government, and all people in general, is job security, salaries, budgets, healthcare, government pension plans, and various benefits.



Their tool to "sell" this is fear.  Events like the Boston Marathon bombing can't be prevented.  Everyone knows that.  When they occur they generate lots of "fear".  The fearful mob gives even MORE power to people in government, which makes them very happy because it means more job security, incomes, healthcare, government pension plans, and various other benefits.













Government is just people.  Not angels, saints, or demigods.  Just other people.  If you replace the word government for people it really starts to sound absurd.  




"Because people might steal form you, and kill you, we give people the authority to steal from us, and kill us."




... bizarre isn't it?




 
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:48:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Oh yeah, a bunch of cops running around searching half of a city or trying to blow away 2 paper delivery ladies in LA is sooooo much better. I think the folks actually LIVING IN the area know more about it and who belongs and who doesn't than the army of idiots who descend on them in the name of public safety. Who was it that found terrorist number 2 exactly ?? Hint: it wasn't the .gov agencies, even though they had over 12 hours to so.


Hint: The target was Mobile.  They were looking for a needle inside of a haystack.  That civilian is lucky he didn't get his head blown off when he lifted the cover off that boat.

You guys keep living your visions of grandeur vigilantism.  We should just get rid of all law enforcement. You honestly think a bunch of civilians running around wouldn't hurt innocent bystanders?  The police are people.  The civilians are people.  BOTH, are going to make mistakes.  NEITHER, are perfect.


No more so a danger to innocent bystanders than the guys going door-to-door with MP-5's wanting to search everything in a 10 block radius. Anyone could have gotten their head blown off from discovering the guy so what's your point ?? Hell the civilian had more balls checking it out BEFORE he called LE to come get the guy since he wasn't trained and running around in full body armor, so I guess there goes the arguement that only the .gov trained "operators" are fit to handle these situations..The LE got to do things their way for over 10 hours, the lowly citizen managed to get it done in a few minutes after being told he could leave his house. The results speak for themselves.


You are right.  If the .gov "operators" didn't do what they did, the local population would have surely caught this guy.  The only reason the guy was hiding in that boat was because of the actions of the .gov. This guy wasn't running away from the Local Population, he was running away from the .gov.  He wasn't scared of you or me.  That is pretty obvious since he allegedly blew up a soft civilian target instead of a Government one.  But that is neither here nor there.

We have a trained Law Enforcement Agency to enforce the laws.  Why?  Because it is what works best. It is not perfect. If vigilantism worked, then we would be doing that instead.  But your local civilian usually has a day job that doesn't involve carrying a rifle, or enforcing the law for that matter.  Then when they get home, they tend to take care of their family.

and oh...Alex Jones..is that you?
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:52:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Versus largely unthinking unprincipled thugs who will cross every line put in front of them as long as they think they have political cover or they are assured their fellow "Sheepdogs" will cover for them?  Compound that with the majority of the "Sheepdogs" hold the Us Vs. Them view of the public they supposedly serve.

I did not say vigilante groups or lynch mobs, I was hinting at giving a large chunk of the male population some training and the ability to seek out more of it and giving them the potential to organize and coordinate at a local level.



Who's going to pay for it?



Isn't the DHS budget like 50 billion or so.



Ok, so the government pays to train civilians to organize and perform law enforcement.

I do not see the difference between the Officers and group trained by the government to do the same job.  Except maybe uniforms.



Doesn't have to be the government.  Plenty of private trainers.  Having your top tier trainers standardize a curriculum would not be that difficult, nor would it be hard for industry to standardize equipment.  You can buy your own rifle and your own budget training rifle.


Agian, who is going to pay the masses to go to training?  Are you going to tax everyone so that the men on your town can go to this training?



Partial private funding could be quite attainable.  Weapon and ammo manufacturers, PMCs selling further training and potentially employment, tax write-offs for trainers, etc.  Think of the logistics of this, millions of new customers.  Keeping as much taxpayer money out as possible would be preferable, but I doubt it is avoidable.

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:55:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Oh yeah, a bunch of cops running around searching half of a city or trying to blow away 2 paper delivery ladies in LA is sooooo much better. I think the folks actually LIVING IN the area know more about it and who belongs and who doesn't than the army of idiots who descend on them in the name of public safety. Who was it that found terrorist number 2 exactly ?? Hint: it wasn't the .gov agencies, even though they had over 12 hours to so.


Hint: The target was Mobile.  They were looking for a needle inside of a haystack.  That civilian is lucky he didn't get his head blown off when he lifted the cover off that boat.

You guys keep living your visions of grandeur vigilantism.  We should just get rid of all law enforcement. You honestly think a bunch of civilians running around wouldn't hurt innocent bystanders?  The police are people.  The civilians are people.  BOTH, are going to make mistakes.  NEITHER, are perfect.


No more so a danger to innocent bystanders than the guys going door-to-door with MP-5's wanting to search everything in a 10 block radius. Anyone could have gotten their head blown off from discovering the guy so what's your point ?? Hell the civilian had more balls checking it out BEFORE he called LE to come get the guy since he wasn't trained and running around in full body armor, so I guess there goes the arguement that only the .gov trained "operators" are fit to handle these situations..The LE got to do things their way for over 10 hours, the lowly citizen managed to get it done in a few minutes after being told he could leave his house. The results speak for themselves.


You are right.  If the .gov "operators" didn't do what they did, the local population would have surely caught this guy.  The only reason the guy was hiding in that boat was because of the actions of the .gov. This guy wasn't running away from the Local Population, he was running away from the .gov.  He wasn't scared of you or me.  That is pretty obvious since he allegedly blew up a soft civilian target instead of a Government one.  But that is neither here nor there.

We have a trained Law Enforcement Agency to enforce the laws.  Why?  Because it is what works best. It is not perfect. If vigilantism worked, then we would be doing that instead.  But your local civilian usually has a day job that doesn't involve carrying a rifle, or enforcing the law for that matter.  Then when they get home, they tend to take care of their family.

and oh...Alex Jones..is that you?


Most likely someone would have noticed him bleeding all over the place,since it kind of fits the definition of "what picture doesn't belong here". Yeah ..we pay 'em and train 'em and they run around violating what they are paid to enforce and sworn to uphold since they have the stamp of "official" approval.

and oh ....Obama...is that you??
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:56:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FedDC:
If you have a better national level strategy that complies with US Code and is constitutional while working with the limited budgets and manpower that they have, let us all know.


This post definitely fits your username
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 10:59:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Versus largely unthinking unprincipled thugs who will cross every line put in front of them as long as they think they have political cover or they are assured their fellow "Sheepdogs" will cover for them?  Compound that with the majority of the "Sheepdogs" hold the Us Vs. Them view of the public they supposedly serve.

I did not say vigilante groups or lynch mobs, I was hinting at giving a large chunk of the male population some training and the ability to seek out more of it and giving them the potential to organize and coordinate at a local level.



Who's going to pay for it?



Isn't the DHS budget like 50 billion or so.



Ok, so the government pays to train civilians to organize and perform law enforcement.

I do not see the difference between the Officers and group trained by the government to do the same job.  Except maybe uniforms.



Doesn't have to be the government.  Plenty of private trainers.  Having your top tier trainers standardize a curriculum would not be that difficult, nor would it be hard for industry to standardize equipment.  You can buy your own rifle and your own budget training rifle.


Agian, who is going to pay the masses to go to training?  Are you going to tax everyone so that the men on your town can go to this training?



Partial private funding could be quite attainable.  Weapon and ammo manufacturers, PMCs selling further training and potentially employment, tax write-offs for trainers, etc.  Think of the logistics of this, millions of new customers.  Keeping as much taxpayer money out as possible would be preferable, but I doubt it is avoidable.


Then all you have is another organization funded by the government that does the exact same job as LEO.
Link Posted: 4/23/2013 11:03:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Oh yeah, a bunch of cops running around searching half of a city or trying to blow away 2 paper delivery ladies in LA is sooooo much better. I think the folks actually LIVING IN the area know more about it and who belongs and who doesn't than the army of idiots who descend on them in the name of public safety. Who was it that found terrorist number 2 exactly ?? Hint: it wasn't the .gov agencies, even though they had over 12 hours to so.


Hint: The target was Mobile.  They were looking for a needle inside of a haystack.  That civilian is lucky he didn't get his head blown off when he lifted the cover off that boat.

You guys keep living your visions of grandeur vigilantism.  We should just get rid of all law enforcement. You honestly think a bunch of civilians running around wouldn't hurt innocent bystanders?  The police are people.  The civilians are people.  BOTH, are going to make mistakes.  NEITHER, are perfect.


No more so a danger to innocent bystanders than the guys going door-to-door with MP-5's wanting to search everything in a 10 block radius. Anyone could have gotten their head blown off from discovering the guy so what's your point ?? Hell the civilian had more balls checking it out BEFORE he called LE to come get the guy since he wasn't trained and running around in full body armor, so I guess there goes the arguement that only the .gov trained "operators" are fit to handle these situations..The LE got to do things their way for over 10 hours, the lowly citizen managed to get it done in a few minutes after being told he could leave his house. The results speak for themselves.


You are right.  If the .gov "operators" didn't do what they did, the local population would have surely caught this guy.  The only reason the guy was hiding in that boat was because of the actions of the .gov. This guy wasn't running away from the Local Population, he was running away from the .gov.  He wasn't scared of you or me.  That is pretty obvious since he allegedly blew up a soft civilian target instead of a Government one.  But that is neither here nor there.

We have a trained Law Enforcement Agency to enforce the laws.  Why?  Because it is what works best. It is not perfect. If vigilantism worked, then we would be doing that instead.  But your local civilian usually has a day job that doesn't involve carrying a rifle, or enforcing the law for that matter.  Then when they get home, they tend to take care of their family.

and oh...Alex Jones..is that you?


Most likely someone would have noticed him bleeding all over the place,since it kind of fits the definition of "what picture doesn't belong here"
. Yeah ..we pay 'em and train 'em and they run around violating what they are paid to enforce and sworn to uphold since they have the stamp of "official" approval.

and oh ....Obama...is that you??


Ya, because a bunch of "civilians" wouldn't run around violating the rights they aren't sworn to uphold.

Just like a backpack dropped off and left in the middle of a crowd right?

Link Posted: 4/23/2013 11:11:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2013 11:16:14 PM EDT by 56type]
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By 56type:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
Yeah, vigilante groups....that's the best plan.  No civil rights violations would ever happen with vigilante groups

Do you hear how stupid that sounds.



Oh yeah, a bunch of cops running around searching half of a city or trying to blow away 2 paper delivery ladies in LA is sooooo much better. I think the folks actually LIVING IN the area know more about it and who belongs and who doesn't than the army of idiots who descend on them in the name of public safety. Who was it that found terrorist number 2 exactly ?? Hint: it wasn't the .gov agencies, even though they had over 12 hours to so.


Hint: The target was Mobile.  They were looking for a needle inside of a haystack.  That civilian is lucky he didn't get his head blown off when he lifted the cover off that boat.

You guys keep living your visions of grandeur vigilantism.  We should just get rid of all law enforcement. You honestly think a bunch of civilians running around wouldn't hurt innocent bystanders?  The police are people.  The civilians are people.  BOTH, are going to make mistakes.  NEITHER, are perfect.


No more so a danger to innocent bystanders than the guys going door-to-door with MP-5's wanting to search everything in a 10 block radius. Anyone could have gotten their head blown off from discovering the guy so what's your point ?? Hell the civilian had more balls checking it out BEFORE he called LE to come get the guy since he wasn't trained and running around in full body armor, so I guess there goes the arguement that only the .gov trained "operators" are fit to handle these situations..The LE got to do things their way for over 10 hours, the lowly citizen managed to get it done in a few minutes after being told he could leave his house. The results speak for themselves.


You are right.  If the .gov "operators" didn't do what they did, the local population would have surely caught this guy.  The only reason the guy was hiding in that boat was because of the actions of the .gov. This guy wasn't running away from the Local Population, he was running away from the .gov.  He wasn't scared of you or me.  That is pretty obvious since he allegedly blew up a soft civilian target instead of a Government one.  But that is neither here nor there.

We have a trained Law Enforcement Agency to enforce the laws.  Why?  Because it is what works best. It is not perfect. If vigilantism worked, then we would be doing that instead.  But your local civilian usually has a day job that doesn't involve carrying a rifle, or enforcing the law for that matter.  Then when they get home, they tend to take care of their family.

and oh...Alex Jones..is that you?


Most likely someone would have noticed him bleeding all over the place,since it kind of fits the definition of "what picture doesn't belong here"
. Yeah ..we pay 'em and train 'em and they run around violating what they are paid to enforce and sworn to uphold since they have the stamp of "official" approval.

and oh ....Obama...is that you??


Ya, because a bunch of "civilians" wouldn't run around violating the rights they aren't sworn to uphold.

Just like a backpack dropped off and left in the middle of a crowd right?



Umm..in case you haven't noticed backpacks are a pretty common thing these days, a guy whose face is all over the news running around bleeding all over shit..not so much . A bunch of citizens generally don't have the option of hiding behind qualified immunity and have to worry about far more consequences than a "letter of reprimand" placed in their career file. But you keep believing that shit if you want...

I guess those "trained" to spot backpacks dropped off in th middle of a crowd didn't get the job done either...
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