What a nightmare.  Europeans frequently exasperate me, but I wouldn't wish an unelected unaccountable bureaucracy with power over every aspect of one's life on my worst enemy.

So, you thought the European constitution was dead, did you?
By Daniel Hannan
(Filed: 20/03/2006)

Two years from now, the European constitution will be in force - certainly de facto and probably de jure, too. Never mind that 15 million Frenchmen and five million swag-bellied Hollanders voted against it.

The Eurocrats have worked out a deft way of getting around them. Here's how they'll do it.

First, they will shove through as many of the constitution's contents as they can under the existing legal framework - a process they had already begun even before the referendums.

Around 85 per cent of the text can, with some creative interpretation, be implemented this way.

True, there are one or two clauses that will require a formal treaty amendment: a European president to replace the system whereby the member nations take it in turns to chair EU meetings; a new voting system; legal personality for the Union.

These outstanding items will be formalised at a miniature inter-governmental conference, probably in 2007. There will be no need to debate them again: all 25 governments accepted them in principle when they signed the constitution 17 months ago.

We shall then be told that these are detailed and technical changes, far too abstruse to be worth pestering the voters with.

The EU will thus have equipped itself with 100 per cent of the constitution, but without having held any more referendums. Clever, no?

Don't take my word for it: listen to what the EU's own leaders are saying. Here is Wolfgang Schüssel, Chancellor of Austria and the EU's current president: "The constitution is not dead."

Here is Angela Merkel, leader of Europe's most powerful and populous state: "Europe needs the constitution… We are willing to make whatever contribution is necessary to bring the constitution into force."

Here is Dominique de Villepin, who, in true European style, has risen to the prime ministership of France without ever having run for elected office: "France did not say no to Europe."

And, on Tuesday, our own Europe minister, Douglas Alexander, repeatedly refused to rule out pushing ahead with the bulk of the text without a referendum.

For the purest statement of the Eurocrats' contempt for the voters, however, we must turn to the constitution's author, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing.

Here is a man who, with his exquisite suits and de haut en bas manner, might be said to personify the EU: so extraordinarily distinguished, as Mallarmé remarked in a different context, that when you bid him bonjour, he makes you feel as though you'd said merde.

"Let's be clear about this," pronounced Giscard a couple of weeks ago. "The rejection of the constitution was a mistake that will have to be corrected."

He went on to remind his audience that the Danish and Irish electorates had once been presumptuous enough to vote against a European treaty, but that no one had paid them the slightest attention.

The same thing is happening today. Since the French and Dutch "No" votes, three countries have approved the text and three more - Finland, Estonia and Belgium - look set to follow in the coming weeks, which would bring to 16 the number of states to have ratified.

At the same time, the European Commission has launched a massive exercise to sell the constitution to the doltish national electorates.

Their scheme goes under the splendidly James Bondish title of "Plan D". I forget what the D stands for: deceit, I think, or possibly disdain.

Anyway, squillions of euros are being spent on explaining to us that we have misunderstood our true interests.

While all this is going on, the EU is proceeding as if the constitution were already in force. Most of the institutions and policies that it would have authorised are being enacted anyway: the External Borders Agency, the European Public Prosecutor, the External Action Service, the Charter of Fundamental Rights, the European Defence Agency, the European Space Programme.

The text is not, as the cliché of the moment has it, being "smuggled in through the back door"; it is swaggering brazenly through the front.

Whenever one of these initiatives comes before us on the constitutional affairs committee, I ask my federalist colleagues: "Where in the existing treaties does it say you can do this?"

"Where does it say we can't?" they reply. Pressed for a proper answer, they point to a flimsy cat's-cradle of summit communiqués, council resolutions and commission press releases.

To be fair, this is how the European project has always advanced. First, Brussels extends its jurisdiction into a new field of policy and then, often years later, it gets around to regularising that extension in a new treaty.

The voters are thus presented with a fait accompli, the theory being that they will be likelier to shrug their shoulders and accept it than they would have been to give their consent in advance.

This, indeed, is how the EU was designed. Its founding fathers understood from the first that their audacious plan to merge the ancient nations of Europe into a single polity would never succeed if each successive transfer of power had to be referred back to the voters for approval.

So they cunningly devised a structure where supreme power was in the hands of appointed functionaries, immune to public opinion.

Indeed, the EU's structure is not so much undemocratic as anti-democratic in that many commissioners, à la Patten and Kinnock, have been explicitly rejected by the voters.

In swatting aside two referendum results, the EU is being true to its foundational principles.

Born out of a reaction against the Second World War, and the plebiscitary democracy that had preceded it, the EU is based on the notion that "populism" (or "democracy", as you and I call it) is a dangerous thing.

Faced with a result that they dislike, the Euro-apparatchiks' first instinct is to ask, with Brecht: "Wouldn't it be easier to dissolve the people and elect another in their place?"

To complain that the EU is undemocratic is like attacking a cow for being bovine, or a butterfly for being flighty. In disregarding public opinion, the EU is doing what it has been programmed to do. It is fulfilling its prime directive.

Sadly, we British are also exhibiting one of our worst national characteristics, namely our tendency to ignore what is happening on the Continent until too late.

With a few exceptions - and here I doff my cap to the pressure group Open Europe, which is waging a lonely campaign to alert people to the danger - we are carrying on as though the French electorate had killed off the constitution, and so spared us from having to think about the European issue at all.

Once again, we are fantasising about the kind of EU we might ideally like to have, rather than dealing with the one that is in fact taking shape on our doorstep. Will we never learn?

Link




<Title edit.  We don't have the F-word in thread titles.  --tbk1>

I wonder how long it will be before the war between the EU and the U.S.?

I hate the EU with the intensity of a thousand exploding suns.  




I was in favor of the Common Market, but the "union" has grown into a grotesque abomination.  

I wonder how many more years it will be before there will be another war on European soil to liberate them from tyranny.

Quoted: I wonder how long it will be before the war between the EU and the U.S.?

the EU will collapse in on itself far before that

Quoted: I wonder how long it will be before the war between the EU and the U.S.?

They'll be too busy killing each other.  Do you know how the machine gun was invented?  Someone told Mr. Maxim that "If you wanted to make a lot of money, invent something that will enable these Europeans to cut each other's throats with greater facility." and history was made.

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how long it will be before the war between the EU and the U.S.? They'll be too busy killing each other.  Do you know how the machine gun was invented?  Someone told Mr. Maxim that "If you wanted to make a lot of money, invent something that will enable these Europeans to cut each other's throats with greater facility." and history was made.

Really?

Funny, because the general thinking when the machinegun was first introduced, was that it'd be great for stomping Africans and other savages in the colonies but it didn't have much use otherwise.  The machinegun turned Europe into a meatgrinder in WWI.

What are some of the Ammendments or Articles?

Do they have a blanket anti-gun clause regardless of states?

Do they have a bill of rights?

I haven't taken the time to read any of it.

Yes.  The right to vote is indeed the only force needed to check governments.  

Free Bump

Cliff notes quotes. Really intersting bits in red. NUKE BRUSSELS!!

Two years from now, the European constitution will be in force - certainly de facto and probably de jure, too. Never mind that 15 million Frenchmen and five million swag-bellied Hollanders voted against it. The Eurocrats have worked out a deft way of getting around them. Here's how they'll do it. First, they will shove through as many of the constitution's contents as they can under the existing legal framework - a process they had already begun even before the referendums.

*
*

We shall then be told that these are detailed and technical changes, far too abstruse to be worth pestering the voters with. The EU will thus have equipped itself with 100 per cent of the constitution, but without having held any more referendums. Clever, no?

*
*

And, on Tuesday, our own Europe minister, Douglas Alexander, repeatedly refused to rule out pushing ahead with the bulk of the text without a referendum. For the purest statement of the Eurocrats' contempt for the voters, however, we must turn to the constitution's author, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing..."Let's be clear about this," pronounced Giscard a couple of weeks ago. "The rejection of the constitution was a mistake that will have to be corrected." He went on to remind his audience that the Danish and Irish electorates had once been presumptuous enough to vote against a European treaty, but that no one had paid them the slightest attention.

*
*

At the same time, the European Commission has launched a massive exercise to sell the constitution to the doltish national electorates. Their scheme goes under the splendidly James Bondish title of "Plan D". I forget what the D stands for: deceit, I think, or possibly disdain. Anyway, squillions of euros are being spent on explaining to us that we have misunderstood our true interests.

*
*

To be fair, this is how the European project has always advanced. First, Brussels extends its jurisdiction into a new field of policy and then, often years later, it gets around to regularising that extension in a new treaty. The voters are thus presented with a fait accompli, the theory being that they will be likelier to shrug their shoulders and accept it than they would have been to give their consent in advance. This, indeed, is how the EU was designed. Its founding fathers understood from the first that their audacious plan to merge the ancient nations of Europe into a single polity would never succeed if each successive transfer of power had to be referred back to the voters for approval. So they cunningly devised a structure where supreme power was in the hands of appointed functionaries, immune to public opinion. Indeed, the EU's structure is not so much undemocratic as anti-democratic in that many commissioners, à la Patten and Kinnock, have been explicitly rejected by the voters. In swatting aside two referendum results, the EU is being true to its foundational principles. Born out of a reaction against the Second World War, and the plebiscitary democracy that had preceded it, the EU is based on the notion that "populism" (or "democracy", as you and I call it) is a dangerous thing. Faced with a result that they dislike, the Euro-apparatchiks' first instinct is to ask, with Brecht: "Wouldn't it be easier to dissolve the people and elect another in their place?" To complain that the EU is undemocratic is like attacking a cow for being bovine, or a butterfly for being flighty. In disregarding public opinion, the EU is doing what it has been programmed to do. It is fulfilling its prime directive. Sadly, we British are also exhibiting one of our worst national characteristics, namely our tendency to ignore what is happening on the Continent until too late.

Quoted: What are some of the Ammendments or Articles? Do they have a blanket anti-gun clause regardless of states? Do they have a bill of rights? I haven't taken the time to read any of it.

Neither have most Europeans.  You can of course do your own research if you care about this thing that luckily has no bearing on your life.  But basically, it's a move towards a command attitide towards society.  An enlighted bureaucracy making the best decisions for everyone, instead of risking leaving it up to individuals who might make the incorrect choice for themselves.

From a foreign policy standpoint, it's the idea of creating a counterweight to the undue hegemony of the USA on world events that used to be balanced by the USSR.

The EU basically is nothing but a kinder, gentler USSR guided by continental European civilization/culture instead of Russian civilization/culture.  It isn't a threat, but it doesn't serve the poor saps that it was undemocratically foisted upon either.

Quoted: I wonder how many more years it will be before there will be another war on European soil to liberate them from tyranny.

I'm afraid it won't happen, unless China wants a piece of the action.  Americans are getting too squeamish to go to war these days.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how long it will be before the war between the EU and the U.S.? They'll be too busy killing each other.  Do you know how the machine gun was invented?  Someone told Mr. Maxim that "If you wanted to make a lot of money, invent something that will enable these Europeans to cut each other's throats with greater facility." and history was made. Really? Funny, because the general thinking when the machinegun was first introduced, was that it'd be great for stomping Africans and other savages in the colonies but it didn't have much use otherwise.  The machinegun turned Europe into a meatgrinder in WWI.

That's because the Europeans were stupid.  They wised up pretty fast though.  I highly recommend the book "The Social History of the Machine Gun" for more reading on the topic.  I don't think it has the Maxim quote in it though.

Quoted: What are some of the Ammendments or Articles? Do they have a blanket anti-gun clause regardless of states? Do they have a bill of rights? I haven't taken the time to read any of it.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm

The Preamble is enough to tell you what a stinking pile of bureaucratic bull shit this whole thing is....


PREAMBLE

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC, HER MAJESTY THE
QUEEN OF DENMARK, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE
REPUBLIC OF ESTONIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC, HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF SPAIN, THE
PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF IRELAND, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN
REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF LATVIA, THE
PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF LITHUANIA, HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUKE OF LUXEMBOURG, THE
PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF HUNGARY, THE PRESIDENT OF MALTA, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE
NETHERLANDS, THE FEDERAL PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF AUSTRIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
OF POLAND, THE PRESIDENT OF THE PORTUGUESE REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF
SLOVENIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE SLOVAK REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF FINLAND, THE
GOVERNMENT OF THE KINGDOM OF SWEDEN, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF
GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND,

DRAWING INSPIRATION from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, from which
have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person,
freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law,

BELIEVING that Europe, reunited after bitter experiences, intends to continue along the path of
civilisation, progress and prosperity, for the good of all its inhabitants, including the weakest and
most deprived; that it wishes to remain a continent open to culture, learning and social progress; and
that it wishes to deepen the democratic and transparent nature of its public life, and to strive for
peace, justice and solidarity throughout the world,

CONVINCED that, while remaining proud of their own national identities and history, the peoples of
Europe are determined to transcend their former divisions and, united ever more closely, to forge a
common destiny,

CONVINCED that, thus ‘United in diversity’, Europe offers them the best chance of pursuing, with due
regard for the rights of each individual and in awareness of their responsibilities towards future
generations and the Ear th, the great venture which makes of it a special area of human hope,

DETERMINED to continue the work accomplished within the framework of the Treaties establishing
the European Communities and the Treaty on European Union, by ensuring the continuity of the
Community acquis,

GRATEFUL to the members of the European Convention for having prepared the draft of this
Constitution on behalf of the citizens and States of Europe,



And it continues on for NEARY FIVE HUNDRED PAGES  

Compare with ours...

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

no legal document can match the simple beauty of our constitution.  no other document does so much with so few words.  it's as near perfection as any legal document comes

I can't think of many ideas worse than attempting to unify a bunch of countries with seperate and very different histories under one government.  

Quoted: I can't think of many ideas worse than attempting to unify a bunch of countries with seperate and very different histories under one government.

separate and different:
-history
-culture
-religion
-social outlook


AND THEY ALL DON'T TRUST EACHOTHER AND HATE EACHOTHER!

so WHEN one EU country goes to war with another, is that considered a civil war?

It couldnt work on its face.

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how long it will be before the war between the EU and the U.S.? the EU US will collapse in on itself far before that

More and more countries are looking to replace their standard with the Euro, as opposed to the dollar.
The house of cards is gonna collapse soon.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how long it will be before the war between the EU and the U.S.? the EU US will collapse in on itself far before that More and more countries are looking to replace their standard with the Euro, as opposed to the dollar. The house of cards is gonna collapse soon.

The US dollar?  I really doubt it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how long it will be before the war between the EU and the U.S.? the EU US will collapse in on itself far before that More and more countries are looking to replace their standard with the Euro, as opposed to the dollar. The house of cards is gonna collapse soon. The US dollar?  I really doubt it.

Iraq was about to, shortly before the invasion.
France and Germany were pushing it as part of backdoor oil/weapons deal.
Iran is now looking to change to the Euro as well.

People talk about China going to war with us - bullshit.
All China would have to do is use the Euro as the standard, as opposed to the US dollar.
Make no mistake about it - our currency is backed only by the faith of others.
Our money is not backed by gold, silver, or any tangible - only trust.
Once that trust is gone - so is our economy.

Quoted: What are some of the Ammendments or Articles?

EU constitution table of contents

Just pick bits out. It's almost impossible to understand- worse than an insurance document

Do they have a blanket anti-gun clause regardless of states?

Don't know, but the EU is not to fond of empowering "citizens"

Do they have a bill of rights?

It's called the

CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION

and it bears very little resemblance to your Bill of Rights.

My favorite articles are

Article 14 Right to education 1. Everyone has the right to education and to have access to vocational and continuing training. 2. This right includes the possibility to receive free compulsory education. 3. The freedom to found educational establishments with due respect for democratic principles and the right of parents to ensure the education and teaching of their children in conformity with their religious, philosophical and pedagogical convictions shall be respected, in accordance with the national laws governing the exercise of such freedom and right.

Article 17 Right to property 1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary for the general interest. 2. Intellectual property shall be protected.

Article 23 Equality between men and women Equality between men and women must be ensured in all areas, including employment, work and pay. The principle of equality shall not prevent the maintenance or adoption of measures providing for specific advantages in favour of the under-represented sex

Article 28 Right of collective bargaining and action Workers and employers, or their respective organisations, have, in accordance with Community law and national laws and practices, the right to negotiate and conclude collective agreements at the appropriate levels and, in cases of conf licts of interest, to take collective action to defend their interests, including strike action.

Article 29 Right of access to placement services Everyone has the right of access to a free placement ser vice. Article 30 Protection in the event of unjustif ied dismissal Every worker has the right to protection against unjustified dismissal, in accordance with Community law and national laws and practices.

Article 34 Social security and social assistance 1. The Union recognises and respects the entitlement to social security benefits and social ser vices providing protection in cases such as maternity, illness, industrial accidents, dependency or old age, and in the case of loss of employment, in accordance with the rules laid down by Community law and national laws and practices. 2. Everyone residing and moving legally within the European Union is entitled to social security benefits and social advantages in accordance with Community law and national laws and practices. 3. In order to combat social exclusion and poverty, the Union recognises and respects the right to social and housing assistance so as to ensure a decent existence for all those who lack sufficient resources, in accordance with the rules laid down by Community law and national laws and practices. Article 35 Health care Everyone has the right of access to preventive health care and the right to benefit from medical treatment under the conditions established by national laws and practices. A high level of human health protection shall be ensured in the definition and implementation of all Union policies and activities. Article 36 Access to services of general economic interest The Union recognises and respects access to ser vices of general economic interest as provided for in national laws and practices, in accordance with the Treaty establishing the European Community, in order to promote the social and territorial cohesion of the Union. Article 37 Environmental protection A high level of environmental protection and the improvement of the quality of the environment must be integrated into the policies of the Union and ensured in accordance with the principle of sustainable development.

Article 39 Right to vote and to stand as a candidate at elections to the European Parliament 1. Every citizen of the Union has the right to vote and to stand as a candidate at elections to the European Parliament in the Member State in which he or she resides, under the same conditions as nationals of that State.

Article 51 Scope 1. The provisions of this Charter are addressed to the institutions and bodies of the Union with due regard for the principle of subsidiarity and to the Member States only when they are implementing Union law. They shall therefore respect the rights, obser ve the principles and promote the application thereof in accordance with their respective powers. 2. This Charter does not establish any new power or task for the Community or the Union, or modify powers and tasks defined by the Treaties. So its really a farce Article 52 Scope of guaranteed rights 1. Any limitation on the exercise of the rights and freedoms recognised by this Charter must be provided for by law and respect the essence of those rights and freedoms. Subject to the principle of proportionality, limitations may be made only if they are necessary and genuinely meet objectives of general interest recognised by the Union or the need to protect the rights and freedoms of others. So the Union can abrograte your rights if it deems it necessary

Article 54 Prohibition of abuse of rights Nothing in this Charter shall be interpreted as implying any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms recognised in this Charter or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for herein. Which is no protection at all, since Art. 52 allows for the absolute abuse and limitation of these rights by government

I haven't taken the time to read any of it.

Worth the time if you want to understand how tyrany can sneak up on you in the guise of virtue and efficiency.

Quoted: Quoted: The Preamble is enough to tell you what a stinking pile of bureaucratic bull shit this whole thing is.... <SNIP> And it continues on for NEARY FIVE HUNDRED PAGES   Compare with ours... We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Big +LOTS

Quoted: Denmark will walk out on the EU, Britain will follow… ANdy

And the EU will demand that Britain leave behind the North Sea oilfields and fisheries. They wont let Britain go any other way. It's a ready-made European war if not managed right, complete with an EU 5th column inside the British establishment.

‘United in diversity’

Quoted: Denmark will walk out on the EU, Britain will follow…

Excellent, I'd love to see other West-European nations except Switzerland and us as non-EU-members.

And people wonder why I think the AntiChrist will come from the EU.

The Constitution sounds like it was written by Satan himself.

Oh, Monsieur Vitto, you son of a silly person,
I'll see your petite nuclear force and raise you 4


and 1


with 16 each of


PLUS

45 of



and 24



carrying 65 (in total)



Ah blow my nose at your collection of fire crackerers, silly English Kinigits!
Ah fart in your general direction!

Quoted: Oh, Monsieur Vitto, you son of a silly person, I'll see your petite nuclear force and raise you 4 www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/inflex.jpg and 1 www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/triom.jpg with 16 each of www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/m4.jpg PLUS 45 of www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/mirage2.jpg and 24 www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/etendard.jpg carrying 65 (in total) www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/asmp.jpg Ah blow my nose at your collection of fire crackerers, silly English Kinigits! Ah fart in your general direction!

Do you really think mere nuclear weapons can defeat the awesome global power of cartoons that Denmark posseses??

Don't mess with our North Sea fishing grounds or oil fields, or we shall draw a naughty cartoon about you!!!  

Quoted: Quoted: Do you really think mere nuclear weapons can defeat the awesome global power of cartoons that Denmark posseses?? Don't mess with our North Sea fishing grounds or oil fields, or we shall draw a naughty cartoon about you!!!

Bloody hell Prof, that's just too funny!

The EU Constitution is roughly equivalent to what we're slowly working towards in the US.

I still think this is nothing but a ploy by Germany to hold exercises in France, quickly declare war and go, "GOTCHA!"

Quoted: Denmark will walk out on the EU, Britain will follow… ANdy

Amazing. Other than Italy, those are the only Western European nations I want to visit.

something like this ->  "the more corrupt the state, the more its laws."

Quoted: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm The Preamble is enough to tell you what a stinking pile of bureaucratic bull shit this whole thing is.... PREAMBLE HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF DENMARK, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF ESTONIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC, HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF SPAIN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF IRELAND, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF LATVIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF LITHUANIA, HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUKE OF LUXEMBOURG, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF HUNGARY, THE PRESIDENT OF MALTA, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS, THE FEDERAL PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF AUSTRIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF POLAND, THE PRESIDENT OF THE PORTUGUESE REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SLOVENIA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE SLOVAK REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF FINLAND, THE GOVERNMENT OF THE KINGDOM OF SWEDEN, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND, DRAWING INSPIRATION from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law, BELIEVING that Europe, reunited after bitter experiences, intends to continue along the path of civilisation, progress and prosperity, for the good of all its inhabitants, including the weakest and most deprived; that it wishes to remain a continent open to culture, learning and social progress; and that it wishes to deepen the democratic and transparent nature of its public life, and to strive for peace, justice and solidarity throughout the world, CONVINCED that, while remaining proud of their own national identities and history, the peoples of Europe are determined to transcend their former divisions and, united ever more closely, to forge a common destiny, CONVINCED that, thus ‘United in diversity’, Europe offers them the best chance of pursuing, with due regard for the rights of each individual and in awareness of their responsibilities towards future generations and the Ear th, the great venture which makes of it a special area of human hope, DETERMINED to continue the work accomplished within the framework of the Treaties establishing the European Communities and the Treaty on European Union, by ensuring the continuity of the Community acquis, GRATEFUL to the members of the European Convention for having prepared the draft of this Constitution on behalf of the citizens and States of Europe, And it continues on for NEARY FIVE HUNDRED PAGES   Compare with ours... We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

That is just one gigantic plate of suck if it happens...

Quoted: Denmark will walk out on the EU, Britain will follow… ANdy

Sooner the better!

Quoted: Quoted: Oh, Monsieur Vitto, you son of a silly person, Ah blow my nose at your collection of fire crackerers, silly English Kinigits! Ah fart in your general direction! HA!!!!!! You think we will quake before the Cheese Eating Surrenduer Monkeys??? We will issue our troops with a secret weapon so awesome the Phrench will immidiately put down their weapons when they see it! YES!!!! We will issue our men with German helmets and moustaches!

But you will quake before our catapult propelled cow



or if not, then we will release this

Quoted: I wonder how long it will be before the war between the EU and the U.S.?

I have wondered about that! As soon as it was created I knew the only people it would have to fight would be the US or the Chinese

So much so that someone was actually talking about bringing the Lira back
That really is desperation. I never thought I'd see the day when Italians started to prefer other Italians running the country over someone, anyone else

Let's not be condescending towards our European Arfcomers, boyos. After all our Constitution is "just a piece of paper." When our bureaucrats get wind of this they'll salivate like Vito's bulldog.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Oh, Monsieur Vitto, you son of a silly person, Ah blow my nose at your collection of fire crackerers, silly English Kinigits! Ah fart in your general direction! HA!!!!!! You think we will quake before the Cheese Eating Surrenduer Monkeys??? We will issue our troops with a secret weapon so awesome the Phrench will immidiately put down their weapons when they see it! YES!!!! We will issue our men with German helmets and moustaches! But you will quake before our catapult propelled cow orangecow.org/pythonet/linus/photos/grail/grail046.jpg or if not, then we will release this slacker.com/~snax/photos/albums/MontyPythonhumor/HolyGrail180.jpg www.angelfire.com/ny5/mpholygrail/images/frenchman1.jpg They say a countries 'National Dog' is a very good reflection of a countries 'Spirit'. France's 'National Dog'……… the Poodle, how gay is this? www.cnn.com/US/9802/17/dog.show/link.toy.poodle.jpg Now we have the Bulldog, the British 'National Dog'……… news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38717000/jpg/_38717481_bulldog.jpg I rest my case…

Oh no, you insult our poodle...well...

For the pride of France...
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We'll send the Germans to surrender for us

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For the pride of France... | | | | | | V We'll send the Germans to surrender for us upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/German_Army_Surrender.jpg The only Phrench a German needs to know… "bonjour soldat allemand! Sont vous mon père? " ANdy

Oh schnap !

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For the pride of France... | | | | | | V We'll send the Germans to surrender for us upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/German_Army_Surrender.jpg The only Phrench a German needs to know… "bonjour soldat allemand! Sont vous mon père? " ANdy

Kind of like asking "Is it a German Shepard or an Alsacion(SP?)"
IBECWIII (InBeforeEuropeanCivilWar3)

No matter how hard they try, most Europeans simply cannot get away from
what basically amounts to a convoluted  form of serfdom.

Didn't one of the American States refuse to ratify the constitution until the other 12 embargoed it into joining the union?

What'll be funny is if some of them try to secede 80 years from now and the EU President claims they can't do that because the EU was founded to be a perpetual union...

Quoted: Didn't one of the American States refuse to ratify the constitution until the other 12 embargoed it into joining the union? What'll be funny is if some of them try to secede 80 years from now and the EU President claims they can't do that because the EU was founded to be a perpetual union...

The EU has already thought of that. The constitution allows for succession, but the member states all get together and discuss it first. The leaving state doesn't get a seat at that table. I imagine the discussion will go something like this:

Successionist State (SS): It's been, well, not exactly fun, but we'd like to go now.
EU -1: Sure, we'll get together and discuss it.
SS: Don't we get a say?
EU: you've already had a say. Now its our turn. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

10 years later

SS: Well,? Can we go?
EU: No. Unless you promise to give us all of your money, all of your natural resources, and allow us to base troops there just to make sure yu pay up. In 100 years, you can go.
SS: MOLON LABE!!!