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Link Posted: 6/10/2020 9:44:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: W_E_G] [#1]
SUBSCRIBED

and I own a page on ARFCOM
Link Posted: 6/10/2020 10:22:40 AM EST
[#2]
Link Posted: 6/10/2020 10:25:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: Ohiogators] [#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Pneumagger:
@ZW17

Abbreviated backstory: I have a 1999 Rheem SEER 10 (I think 3 ton) unit that has been performing poorly for about the last 3 summers.  Extra crappy so far this year.  Extended run times in even mild upper 70's weather, icing coils, etc... so my father in law (former owner of this house and handyman) told me he used to top it off every so often because it must have a small leak somewhere and has the freon and gauges and stuff.  Offers to come by and top her off.  Long story short, I find out dude's been topping it off with it up with R410a.  Even came by for a discreet top off last fall when my wife mentioned it to her mom.  He says to me, "Repair technician once told me it's perfectly fine.  I topped off uncle Jimmy's AC the last two or three years befroe he got a new one."  My response was, "Your repair guy is retarded.  The fact that the condensers are radically different in size and the working pressures are off by a factor of 2 wasn't any kind of clue?  You're probably the one that finally killed Jimmy's AC."

This all went down over the weekend and I haven't turned it on since (two 80 and one 90 degree day ago, lol).  I checked the lines and superheat condition, but all I could read is 200ish psi on the liquid line weather it was running or not (which is unsurprisingly the vapor pressure of R410a).  Local A/C company says the service call will be $70 plus time to purge/evacuate and refill and that they charge $150/LB for R22.  My unit takes 66oz plus the lines, so call it almost 5# by the time your done. Dumping $700+ into a 1999 system?  LOL no.

I'll do this myself. So I've ordered a 10# tank of R22 that shows up tomorrow. I have a small cheap 3CFM harbor freight chinesium vacuum pump like you'd use on a car A/C. All I have to do is get some 1/4 SAE flare fittings and hose to hook the pump up to my gauge manifold and I should be able to evacuate the lines then refill the R22 myself. It'll probably take an hour or so of vacuuming with that small chinesium pump, but I should be all in <$200 to get it running and have 1/2 a tank R22 left to top off as needed.  What I don't know is:

a) Do I have to add oil to the new freon after venting then vacuuming the lines?
b) If so what kind? Where do I get it? Cheap is good, this thing is old.
c) How much? It's a 1999/2000 SEER 10 3-ton with scroll compressor. (keeping in mind, I think a bunch of the old oil will be leftover in the lines, but I don't know).
View Quote


You planning on venting the 5lbs of old refrigerant?  Don't try to use the vacuum pump to do it.  There needs to be no pressure on the system when you connect the vacuum pump.
Link Posted: 6/10/2020 10:48:33 AM EST
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ohiogators:


You planning on venting the 5lbs of old refrigerant?  Don't try to use the vacuum pump to do it.  There needs to be no pressure on the system when you connect the vacuum pump.
View Quote

At a minimum you should have someone come by to reclaim the refrigerant.
Link Posted: 6/10/2020 12:07:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: Millennial] [#5]
Originally Posted By ZW17:


Nope, no need to add oil.

That’s crazy he was blending the two refrigerants, the higher working pressures of 410 probably did some hidden damage to the compressor depending on how much he put in.

Learn how to read superheat and subcooling on your system using gauges and a digital thermometer and charge that pig up.

I think Harbor Freight sells gauges.
View Quote
I hope not. An R22 system can deal with pressures quite a bit over 200 psi when operating, which is the saturation pressure of R410a. Long as he left some head-space without overcharging I would think it'll be fine.  I have the gauge manifold... but I'm going to charge primarily by weight with a scale anyways since the specification label tells me what a new charge should weigh. Weight is weight... which is more accurate than pressure (that's affected by temperatures).

Originally Posted By Ohiogators:


You planning on venting the 5lbs of old refrigerant?  Don't try to use the vacuum pump to do it.  There needs to be no pressure on the system when you connect the vacuum pump.
View Quote

If I have to.  Not thrilled about it either, but I don't have anything to reclaim with.
I guess I could burn it off myself.  With a hose like 50ft downwind piped into my running grill.  And try not to die.  Phosgene is better for the environment than R22/R410a, right?

Originally Posted By 98Redline:

At a minimum you should have someone come by to reclaim the refrigerant.
View Quote
I can call around, but from what I read it's hard to get someone to take away mixed refrigerant for reprocessing. Something about reprocessing plants are just going to charge you to burn/destroy it anyways.
Link Posted: 6/18/2020 4:23:38 PM EST
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ZW17:
They say the only concern is the displacement of oxygen with R410a, .....
View Quote

That is completely false and incorrect. It is well documented that R410a is a volatile chemical, meaning that it breaks down very quickly when released in the atmosphere; good for the ozone, but causes acid rain. The problem is that the byproduct of that chemical decomposition is it forms hydrochloric acid. The manufacturers of R410a all warn us to wear rubber gloves when working with it. As soon as R410a meets the moisture in the air, it forms acid. as soon as it touches your skin, it creates acid on and in the skin. My fingers nails are frequently soft by the weekend due to the exposure of R410a on my hands. If breathed in, R410a will form acid in your lungs immediately.
Link Posted: 6/18/2020 4:30:34 PM EST
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By prill64:
Given the cost of a new system, am I crazy for keeping the warranty to help subsidize the cost at the risk of a cut rate HVAC company installing the replacement?
View Quote

Most warranty companies will either limit your repairs and only pay up to $2500 or $1500.
You will only get the cheapest unit if they replace any part of the system.
The quality of install will generally be poor.

Bank the money. Buy a mid tier or higher unit and you will be dollars ahead in the long run.
I just did an annual check up for a couple that bought two 16 SEER 2 stage systems 2.5 years ago.
They are saving $1300 per year on their electric bill.
Link Posted: 6/18/2020 4:40:56 PM EST
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:
The cost per btu in my area is about the same for propane as electric, the only two energy sources available.  

Can do about anything from a code perspective and I'd rather buy once and cry once.  

What are important to me is reliability and efficiency.
 

I've been given all kinds of recommendations:  geo-thermal, all electric, dual fuel [air heat pump w/ propane]......
View Quote

First question is how cold does it get at 3 am in January?
Second question is how warm do you like to keep the house in the winter?

If the temp rarely goes below 20˚F, a Carrier / Bryant 2 stage heat pump will work. Has an HSPF of 9.0
If you require the house be warmer than 74˚F, then buy dual fuel. If the ambient is in the teens or less regularly, buy dual fuel.
Dual fuel will cost you an addition $2k to $4k depending on specifics. It only makes sense if the heat pump can not do the job.

Dual fuel may not be the best way if propane is cheap enough, just go propane heat and straight A/C.

The best energy savings come from 2 stage heat and 2 stage cool. They pay for themselves every time.
Inverter units save a little more, but they are like buying a Tesla, you don't buy it for the cost savings. The price point is too high for the numbers to work.
A 2 stage heat 2 stage cool unit saves almost as much plus it costs 40% less than an inverter unit, so the numbers work in your favor.
Link Posted: 6/18/2020 4:53:09 PM EST
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ZW17:
2) 4” pleated MERV 15 down to MERV 8 I believe? The lower the MERV rating, the less efficient.
View Quote

That is actually not correct. How are you rating efficiency?
His question about air filters was in regard to air flow, not filtration.

A MERV 15 captures a higher percentage of particles but restricts airflow more than a MERV 8. Not more efficient, the finer pores in the filter media captures smaller particles.

For best air flow performance, you need a minimum of 200 square inches of filter for each ton of A/C or for every 20,000 BTU of furnace rating.
A 5 ton A/C or heat pump requires 1000 square inches of filter. Most homes have a 20x25 (500 inches) or 20x30 (600 inches), so almost every home benefits from the addition of more filters. A 100,000 BTU input furnace should have (100,000/20,000=5, 5 times 200 =) 1000 square inches of filter

A filter with a MERV rating between 8 and 10 work well in residential equipment. Higher MERV filters can and do damage new equipment. The new variable speed equipment, constant torque motor based equipment, do not work well with filters rated above 10 MERV. I change several motors per year because customers forget that the higher MERV filters are too restrictive.
Link Posted: 6/18/2020 4:56:35 PM EST
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gyprat:


I replaced 1", 20x25" filter with a 5" pleated, MERV 12 filter. What a difference it makes! There is at least twice the airflow. My AC was having a hard time keeping the temperature during very hot 100 degree days. Now it easily cools the house at any temperature.

The 5" filter lasts about 3 to 4 months. We have a Siberian Husky. She sheds a lot. I clean the filter with a vacuum cleaner about once per month.
View Quote

The deeper pleats give the filter more surface area which results in less restriction to air flow. You basically doubled the surface area by going to a 5" pleat from a 1" pleat.
Unfortunately, most homes do not have a filter rack that can accommodate a 5" pleat., most only accept 1" filters and some do 2" filters.
Link Posted: 6/18/2020 6:30:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: ZW17] [#11]
Link Posted: 6/18/2020 6:51:23 PM EST
[#12]
My 15 year old system is being replaced with a 3.5 ton Payne system with gas heat. $5000 turn key. Is Payne decent?
Link Posted: 6/18/2020 7:12:24 PM EST
[#13]
Link Posted: 6/18/2020 10:22:18 PM EST
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCinAZ:

That is actually not correct. How are you rating efficiency?
His question about air filters was in regard to air flow, not filtration.

A MERV 15 captures a higher percentage of particles but restricts airflow more than a MERV 8. Not more efficient, the finer pores in the filter media captures smaller particles.

For best air flow performance, you need a minimum of 200 square inches of filter for each ton of A/C or for every 20,000 BTU of furnace rating.
A 5 ton A/C or heat pump requires 1000 square inches of filter. Most homes have a 20x25 (500 inches) or 20x30 (600 inches), so almost every home benefits from the addition of more filters. A 100,000 BTU input furnace should have (100,000/20,000=5, 5 times 200 =) 1000 square inches of filter

A filter with a MERV rating between 8 and 10 work well in residential equipment. Higher MERV filters can and do damage new equipment. The new variable speed equipment, constant torque motor based equipment, do not work well with filters rated above 10 MERV. I change several motors per year because customers forget that the higher MERV filters are too restrictive.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCinAZ:
Originally Posted By ZW17:
2) 4” pleated MERV 15 down to MERV 8 I believe? The lower the MERV rating, the less efficient.

That is actually not correct. How are you rating efficiency?
His question about air filters was in regard to air flow, not filtration.

A MERV 15 captures a higher percentage of particles but restricts airflow more than a MERV 8. Not more efficient, the finer pores in the filter media captures smaller particles.

For best air flow performance, you need a minimum of 200 square inches of filter for each ton of A/C or for every 20,000 BTU of furnace rating.
A 5 ton A/C or heat pump requires 1000 square inches of filter. Most homes have a 20x25 (500 inches) or 20x30 (600 inches), so almost every home benefits from the addition of more filters. A 100,000 BTU input furnace should have (100,000/20,000=5, 5 times 200 =) 1000 square inches of filter

A filter with a MERV rating between 8 and 10 work well in residential equipment. Higher MERV filters can and do damage new equipment. The new variable speed equipment, constant torque motor based equipment, do not work well with filters rated above 10 MERV. I change several motors per year because customers forget that the higher MERV filters are too restrictive.

"Efficiency" in filtration pretty much always means how much "stuff" you can remove from what you are filtering.  High beta ratio == efficient  You don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it.
Link Posted: 6/21/2020 8:26:34 AM EST
[#15]
Link Posted: 6/21/2020 7:49:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: BCinAZ] [#16]
I have not logged in and out, I do come online occasionally, but whether or not I visit AR15 is inconsequential.

MSDS sheets are general warnings, but are by no means complete.

From one manufacturers site on R410a specifically:
Heart Problems

Exposure to dangerous levels of refrigerants resulting from abuse or occupation can have serious adverse effects on the heart. (Reference 4) Refrigerants are toxic to the heart and can result in heart attacks, high blood pressure and abnormal heart rhythms leading to circulatory collapse, according to the Environmental Health article. (Reference 3) NIOSH advises workers with potential exposure to refrigerants follow their guidelines regarding awareness, training, engineering controls, hazards in confined spaces, medical considerations and personal protective equipment such as:

respiratory protection
chemical protective clothing
to reduce the risk of death
(Reference 2)

Refrigerent Poisoning

Refrigerant poisoning can result from exposure, according to UMMC 3⭐

This is a verified and trusted source

Iniversity of Maryland Medical Center: Refrigerant Poisoning - All Information

Goto Source
. Death is possible. Emergency medical care is required. Outcome after refrigerant poisoning depends on how severe the poisoning was, and how fast medical help began. Irreversible brain damage and severe lung damage can result. (Reference 4)

View Quote


Note the instruction to wear chemical protective clothing to protect the skin from the chemicals in R410a.

From Honeywell's site:
Decomposition products may include HydroFlouric Acid (HF) and Carbonyl Halides

I was mistaken, I wrote hydrochloric acid, it is hydrofluoric acid.....   I don't know what carbonyl halides are......



I don't have time to retrain you in the safe handling of the product. Nor do I have the time to debate with you.
If you want to believe that it is as safe as you claimed earlier, that is your choice; just like walking into a burning house would be.
Link Posted: 6/21/2020 8:38:03 PM EST
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCinAZ:
I have not logged in and out, I do come online occasionally, but whether or not I visit AR15 is inconsequential.

MSDS sheets are general warnings, but are by no means complete.

From one manufacturers site on R410a specifically:


Note the instruction to wear chemical protective clothing to protect the skin from the chemicals in R410a.

From Honeywell's site:
Decomposition products may include HydroFlouric Acid (HF) and Carbonyl Halides

I was mistaken, I wrote hydrochloric acid, it is hydrofluoric acid.....   I don't know what carbonyl halides are......



I don't have time to retrain you in the safe handling of the product. Nor do I have the time to debate with you.
If you want to believe that it is as safe as you claimed earlier, that is your choice; just like walking into a burning house would be.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCinAZ:
I have not logged in and out, I do come online occasionally, but whether or not I visit AR15 is inconsequential.

MSDS sheets are general warnings, but are by no means complete.

From one manufacturers site on R410a specifically:
Heart Problems

Exposure to dangerous levels of refrigerants resulting from abuse or occupation can have serious adverse effects on the heart. (Reference 4) Refrigerants are toxic to the heart and can result in heart attacks, high blood pressure and abnormal heart rhythms leading to circulatory collapse, according to the Environmental Health article. (Reference 3) NIOSH advises workers with potential exposure to refrigerants follow their guidelines regarding awareness, training, engineering controls, hazards in confined spaces, medical considerations and personal protective equipment such as:

respiratory protection
chemical protective clothing
to reduce the risk of death
(Reference 2)

Refrigerent Poisoning

Refrigerant poisoning can result from exposure, according to UMMC 3⭐

This is a verified and trusted source

Iniversity of Maryland Medical Center: Refrigerant Poisoning - All Information

Goto Source
. Death is possible. Emergency medical care is required. Outcome after refrigerant poisoning depends on how severe the poisoning was, and how fast medical help began. Irreversible brain damage and severe lung damage can result. (Reference 4)



Note the instruction to wear chemical protective clothing to protect the skin from the chemicals in R410a.

From Honeywell's site:
Decomposition products may include HydroFlouric Acid (HF) and Carbonyl Halides

I was mistaken, I wrote hydrochloric acid, it is hydrofluoric acid.....   I don't know what carbonyl halides are......



I don't have time to retrain you in the safe handling of the product. Nor do I have the time to debate with you.
If you want to believe that it is as safe as you claimed earlier, that is your choice; just like walking into a burning house would be.

Decomposition happens north of 400F, the number usual cited is ~450F.  PTFE does the same thing.
Link Posted: 6/21/2020 10:24:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: ZW17] [#18]
Link Posted: 6/27/2020 8:54:12 AM EST
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCinAZ:

First question is how cold does it get at 3 am in January?
Second question is how warm do you like to keep the house in the winter?

If the temp rarely goes below 20˚F, a Carrier / Bryant 2 stage heat pump will work. Has an HSPF of 9.0
If you require the house be warmer than 74˚F, then buy dual fuel. If the ambient is in the teens or less regularly, buy dual fuel.
Dual fuel will cost you an addition $2k to $4k depending on specifics. It only makes sense if the heat pump can not do the job.

Dual fuel may not be the best way if propane is cheap enough, just go propane heat and straight A/C.

The best energy savings come from 2 stage heat and 2 stage cool. They pay for themselves every time.
Inverter units save a little more, but they are like buying a Tesla, you don't buy it for the cost savings. The price point is too high for the numbers to work.
A 2 stage heat 2 stage cool unit saves almost as much plus it costs 40% less than an inverter unit, so the numbers work in your favor.
View Quote


@BCinAZ

Thanks

The avg. winter Temp is right at 25*, but of course dips lower, and the avg summer temp is above 80*.  This is for St Louis Mo which is an hour south of where my farm is.  Seems like I'm right on the cusp of dual being viable.  

https://weatherspark.com/y/12083/Average-Weather-in-St.-Louis-Missouri-United-States-Year-Round#:~:text=The%20hottest%20day%20of%20the,high%20of%2041%C2%B0F.

in the few years I've been buying it, propane is about $1.40 gallon in summer and $1.80 in the winter.  Electric is $0.095 per kWh.  

Link Posted: 7/20/2020 6:53:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: ZW17] [#20]
Warning issued for personal attacks in a tech forum
~ZW17
Link Posted: 7/22/2020 8:56:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: ZW17] [#21]
If you wish to discuss your account warning please take it to PM or to a staff member, do not derail this thread again.
~ZW17

Link Posted: 7/22/2020 9:04:34 AM EST
[#22]
The EPA and OSHA have specific guidelines regarding how much freon is not immediately dangerous. There is no safe amount of leakage. They have specific guidelines for how much can leak in a year. That is 10% of the system's capacity of units that hold 50lbs or more. A unit that holds 50 lbs must be repaired if the leak in a year exceeds 5 lbs. A unit that size will service over 10,000 square feet. Those systems also dilute the recirculated air with 10 to 25% fresh air daily.

Do a little extrapolation and see how much more dense and dangerous the same 5 lbs of R410a is in your 2000 sq ft house. Plus your house does not have fresh air mechanically injected to dilute the recirculated air.

There is no safe amount of leakage with R410a.

All the claims I made were verbatim from the initial roll out almost 17 years ago. Plus my personal experience first hand working with it and seeing the physical damage.

The industry has tried to quietly stop talking about it to prevent future lawsuits from health claims, but the medical facts are that ANY measurable amount of R410a in your home is dangerous.
Link Posted: 7/22/2020 10:13:59 AM EST
[#23]
Link Posted: 8/17/2020 7:07:48 AM EST
[#24]
I'm considering a dual fuel HVAC system for new construction.  

Bid one is Trane S9X1B080U4PSBA gas furnace with a Trane 4TWR5036 15 seer pump

the other bid is for 2.5 ton Carrier 14 seer heat pump with  Carrier LP gas furnace

Both have 1 yr labor, 10 yr part warranties.  

Any insights as to which direction I should go?  

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/17/2020 9:09:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: ZW17] [#25]
Link Posted: 8/17/2020 9:57:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: doc_Zox] [#26]
My blower fan on my Trane gas hvac started spinning up slow and had a whine last weekend

I pulled the housing, cleaned the filter and fan motor and got it running sunday night

Monday morning I bought a new run cap at a wholesale shop (that took some Jedi mind trickery)

it restarted immediately but had some odd sounds
i ran it "always on" no auto for an hour and it seemed ok for cooling the house

no one would sell me a motor locally so,
i ebay ordered the same motor Monday night for 68 dollars shipped
I swapped it back to auto run and it cooled thru the night
Tuesday morning it slow started with a hum

i pulled it and spent an hour with a toothbrush and motor oil cleaning and lubing it

I got it reinstalled and it fired right up and cooled the house from 80 to 74

Wednesday morning it was running ok, it would click hum hum and spin up
At about 2 pm it was running, it must of over heated and i heard it spin down with some vibration snd squeal

i pulled it, tore it apart again emery clothed the internals, shafts and flushed the besrings out with high temp silicon 3in1

nope, its dead jim

hums fights to start and shuts down
hand spinning the squirrel cage would not get it to start

the replacement showed up Friday at 11am and i lubed it and installed it

i think the old motor was having issues this summer, as the new one is circulating more air and cooling the house quicker

the motors are TRIPSAVERS, i don't think these were original to the Trane unit
( the run cap was a 2003 trane)



Link Posted: 8/17/2020 4:28:59 PM EST
[#27]
Link Posted: 8/17/2020 9:16:53 PM EST
[#28]
I figure the previous owners had a motor failure and a tech replaced it for 400 or so bucks

as I don't have the original Trane motor, I bought another tripsaver 51-23012-31

it looks like you can pay up to 200 bucks for a new one, so I am pretty happy with my 69 dollar deal.

Whats a good motor for long term service?





Link Posted: 8/17/2020 9:35:09 PM EST
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
My blower fan on my Trane gas hvac started spinning up slow and had a whine last weekend

I pulled the housing, cleaned the filter and fan motor and got it running sunday night

Monday morning I bought a new run cap at a wholesale shop (that took some Jedi mind trickery)

it restarted immediately but had some odd sounds
i ran it "always on" no auto for an hour and it seemed ok for cooling the house

no one would sell me a motor locally so,
i ebay ordered the same motor Monday night for 68 dollars shipped
I swapped it back to auto run and it cooled thru the night
Tuesday morning it slow started with a hum

i pulled it and spent an hour with a toothbrush and motor oil cleaning and lubing it

I got it reinstalled and it fired right up and cooled the house from 80 to 74

Wednesday morning it was running ok, it would click hum hum and spin up
At about 2 pm it was running, it must of over heated and i heard it spin down with some vibration snd squeal

i pulled it, tore it apart again emery clothed the internals, shafts and flushed the besrings out with high temp silicon 3in1

nope, its dead jim

hums fights to start and shuts down
hand spinning the squirrel cage would not get it to start

the replacement showed up Friday at 11am and i lubed it and installed it

i think the old motor was having issues this summer, as the new one is circulating more air and cooling the house quicker

the motors are TRIPSAVERS, i don't think these were original to the Trane unit
( the run cap was a 2003 trane)



View Quote


We don't get many call backs using rescue [brand] motors and the few I have had were almost always because someone didn't match the capacitor correctly to match the original HP rating of the removed motor. Oversizing or undersizing the HP rating is a sure way to shorten the life of a new motor. I've pissed of more then a few customers by refusing to replace their 1/2 HP motor with a 3/4 one because they wanted more air flow. 1050 RPM is 1050 RPM, PERIOD. a 100 HP motor with a 1050 RPM speed would move the same amount of air with the same blower wheel.
Link Posted: 8/19/2020 2:28:19 PM EST
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCinAZ:

First question is how cold does it get at 3 am in January?
Second question is how warm do you like to keep the house in the winter?

If the temp rarely goes below 20˚F, a Carrier / Bryant 2 stage heat pump will work. Has an HSPF of 9.0
If you require the house be warmer than 74˚F, then buy dual fuel. If the ambient is in the teens or less regularly, buy dual fuel.
Dual fuel will cost you an addition $2k to $4k depending on specifics. It only makes sense if the heat pump can not do the job.

Dual fuel may not be the best way if propane is cheap enough, just go propane heat and straight A/C.

The best energy savings come from 2 stage heat and 2 stage cool. They pay for themselves every time.
Inverter units save a little more, but they are like buying a Tesla, you don't buy it for the cost savings. The price point is too high for the numbers to work.
A 2 stage heat 2 stage cool unit saves almost as much plus it costs 40% less than an inverter unit, so the numbers work in your favor.
View Quote



@BCinAZ

Can you please define what is '2 stage heat and 2 stage cool'?  

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/19/2020 8:50:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: Ohiogators] [#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:



@BCinAZ

Can you please define what is '2 stage heat and 2 stage cool'?  

Thanks
View Quote


2 stage heat/cool means the equipment can run at 2 different capacities.  Full capacity when needed, and a lower stage when demand is less.  Lower stage uses less energy.
Link Posted: 8/20/2020 5:52:38 AM EST
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ohiogators:


2 stage heat/cool means the equipment can run at 2 different capacities.  Full capacity when needed, and a lower stage when demand is less.  Lower stage uses less energy.
View Quote


Thanks.

I guess that wouldn't work for a heat pump would it?  

Seems like dual fuel is a kind of 2 stage?
Link Posted: 8/20/2020 6:00:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: Leon82] [#33]
Two stage can be a mini split with backup baseboard boiler also for when it won't work in colder temps

Some boilers also have a boost function where of the set point isn't met in a certain amount of time is raises the water temp
Link Posted: 8/20/2020 6:04:08 AM EST
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:


Thanks.

I guess that wouldn't work for a heat pump would it?  

Seems like dual fuel is a kind of 2 stage?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:
Originally Posted By Ohiogators:


2 stage heat/cool means the equipment can run at 2 different capacities.  Full capacity when needed, and a lower stage when demand is less.  Lower stage uses less energy.


Thanks.

I guess that wouldn't work for a heat pump would it?  

Seems like dual fuel is a kind of 2 stage?


Of course it works. All a heat pump mostly is is a A/C unit that works in reverse when you want to transfer heat into the house instead of move it outside.
Link Posted: 8/22/2020 1:07:34 PM EST
[#35]
OST
Link Posted: 11/24/2020 3:31:15 PM EST
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCinAZ:

First question is how cold does it get at 3 am in January?

View Quote


Not the way to size a system.
National weather service maintains years of data.

A typical design limit is 97%.
So for a very few hours at night during winter
your heat may not hold set point.97% also works
for cooling and humidity.

For a few hours during the day (often just before evening)
the system will not hold set point.
The whole thing is built against Manual J for heating and
cooling loads in residential construction.

Make an error there on the R-value of the walls and ceilings and you
can really screws up a system design.

On residential systems humidity control for cooling is often just 'along for the ride.'
Few systems even have a humidistat.

Sizing the cooling equipment correctly will allow it to run long enough to control humidity.
To small a system will not control temperature.

To large a system will often leave the interior cool and damp.
The duty cycle is not adequate to control humidity.

This also occurs in the 'shoulder seasons' before the main heating and cooling period each year.
The equipment is not designed to throttle capacity.

Some newer systems use variable speed for cooling to throttle compressor capacity.
Electric heat is easy to stage, just turn on a fraction of the heat coils or put a Triac to
control their 'on time' in each cycle of the AC power.
Just like a lamp dimmer does. cycle by cycle manipulation of the current.

Gas is a little harder to stage since burners are generally an off or on thing.
Just like your oven in the kitchen.
ON or OFF are the only options without putting in more burners to allow the input heat to be altered.


Link Posted: 2/24/2021 5:52:09 PM EST
[#37]
The compressor dies in my 15 year old Trane heat pump. I am shopping for a replacement system. Input on brand etc. would be appreciated.

I am getting multiple quotes. This is the first one I got:

TRANE
TAM9 AIR HANDLER
XL16i
15KW/2.5T
16 seer
10 year parts
2 year labor
12 year compressor
$9125 cash, check or card

AMANA
AVPTC AIR HANDLER
ASZ16
15KW/2.5T
16 seer
10 year parts
10 year labor
Lifetime compressor
$8150 cash, check or card

20x20x4 air filter
New line set
2 year comfort club
Link Posted: 2/24/2021 6:01:18 PM EST
[#38]
I had an experience where the first tech said my heat exchanger was cracked, good news was it was under warranty, parts are free.  Bad news, $1,000+ to install the new exchanger.  A different tech came out to do the work and he said he wanted to double check things before he started.  Turns out it was a birds nest in the exhaust pipe.  He called the office and they told him to do the repair anyway.  Tech #2 refused and I now have a new HVAC contractor.
Link Posted: 2/24/2021 7:53:42 PM EST
[#39]
Link Posted: 3/21/2021 9:44:44 AM EST
[#40]
Keeping this alive, stimbux are going into a new heat pump.
Link Posted: 3/21/2021 10:23:47 AM EST
[#41]
Timely thread. I have 16y/o (original unit) system that is still going strong but has significant corrosion on the condenser coil fins. I bought the house last year knowing the system would need to be replaced sooner than later. Was hoping for a catastrophic failure under the seller’s home warranty (up in June)

I’ll be shopping for an installer in/around N.Charleston/Summerville SC. Any recommendations  would be appreciated. There are a LOT of HVAC installers/companies in the area and the good ones are hard to pinpoint.
Link Posted: 4/2/2021 6:11:01 PM EST
[#42]
410a is a horrible freon. But that's what the govt said was an ok replacement for r22.
410a is no ozone, just 20x for greenhouse effect!
r22 also performs better above 100F ambient.

16seer GSX line Goodman single stage works really well.
Pros & Cons to everything.

Re-using r22 lineset is usually ok, but you really need to wash it out good to get out the old oil, new 410a gear is not compatible with mineral oil, 410a using the PAO stuff.

I did a DIY resi job, r22 to 410a, re-used the 12yr old lineset, and not brazed, just Stay-Brite-8. Not a single issue for past 3yrs!

If you DIY, add in 1-2 site glass units, and for peets sake, add a decent size filter on the return line at condenser. For these items I use Parker stuff.

Must have good tools, good safety gear, and basically know wtf you are doing.
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 10:23:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: BLK_MAJK] [#43]
Looking for some guidance on the system in the house we bought last summer.  House is a log home, 2300+ sq ft.  New Marvin Signature windows.  Propane.  NW Ohio.

Current Setup:
Heat: Carrier Weathermaker 58MXA120-20 : 120K BTU : Installed in 99.  Works great
AC: Payne PA13NA030-B : 2.5 Ton condenser with Carrier 3 Ton Puron N coil : Installed in 2012.  It works correctly, but I think it is undersized.  It can't get house below 76 (would like to be able to maintain 72).  One day in August it ran for 23 hours straight and still only got to 76.

The house has a 2 story great room with a wall of windows that face west, so this room gets very warm, which I'm guessing is a major part of my cooling issues.  I am looking into getting these windows replaced with better glass (they are just basic glass) and/or tinting them to help.  I have blinds on the lower windows, but the upper windows are shaped to follow the A-frame of the roof, so blinds would tough.

Having said that, it would be easy to call a couple local places and get quotes...but it's not that simple.  I have a very good friend who has VERY good contacts within the building/construction industry.  He can get me new AC equipment for a very steep discount and has people who can do the install, but I don't think he can help me with manual J/sizing.  So that leaves me with basically 2 questions...

Should I only replace the AC?  The furnace works great, plenty of BTU's, 92% AFUE, but it is 22 years old.
What size AC should I be looking for?  Quick internet search tells me anywhere from 3.5-4 ton.

Thanks for any help/suggestions.

Old picture of great room from real estate listing
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 1:00:29 PM EST
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BLK_MAJK:
The house has a 2 story great room with a wall of windows that face west, so this room gets very warm, which I'm guessing is a major part of my cooling issues.  I am looking into getting these windows replaced with better glass (they are just basic glass) and/or tinting them to help.  I have blinds on the lower windows, but the upper windows are shaped to follow the A-frame of the roof, so blinds would tough.
View Quote

DH and I installed this window tint on the south/west windows of our home a few years ago:
https://www.amazon.com/EXTERIOR-Window-Privacy-Control-Silver/dp/B00VH01NQM/

I believe it's more than paid for itself.  By putting the tint on the exterior, it stops the sunlight from heating up the space between the dual window panes, and IMO it works better than the stuff installed on the inside.  One person can install it but it's easier with two.
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 11:12:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: Ohiogators] [#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BLK_MAJK:
Looking for some guidance on the system in the house we bought last summer.  House is a log home, 2300+ sq ft.  New Marvin Signature windows.  Propane.  NW Ohio.  

Current Setup:
Heat: Carrier Weathermaker 58MXA120-20 : 120K BTU : Installed in 99.  Works great
AC: Payne PA13NA030-B : 2.5 Ton condenser with Carrier 3 Ton Puron N coil : Installed in 2012.  It works correctly, but I think it is undersized.  It can't get house below 76 (would like to be able to maintain 72).  One day in August it ran for 23 hours straight and still only got to 76.

The house has a 2 story great room with a wall of windows that face west, so this room gets very warm, which I'm guessing is a major part of my cooling issues.  I am looking into getting these windows replaced with better glass (they are just basic glass) and/or tinting them to help.  I have blinds on the lower windows, but the upper windows are shaped to follow the A-frame of the roof, so blinds would tough.  

Having said that, it would be easy to call a couple local places and get quotes...but it's not that simple.  I have a very good friend who has VERY good contacts within the building/construction industry.  He can get me new AC equipment for a very steep discount and has people who can do the install, but I don't think he can help me with manual J/sizing.  So that leaves me with basically 2 questions...

Should I only replace the AC?  The furnace works great, plenty of BTU's, 92% AFUE, but it is 22 years old.
What size AC should I be looking for?  Quick internet search tells me anywhere from 3.5-4 ton.

Thanks for any help/suggestions.

Old picture of great room from real estate listing
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/331964/Screenshot_20210407-112440_Zillow_jpg-1896127.JPG


View Quote


Sizing an AC without a manual J heat load calc is just guessing.  Address the windows first, so that the correct info can be used to size your home.

IMO, furnace should go.  You're saving money doing both at the same time.  

25+ year HVAC tech and contractor in Ohio.
Link Posted: 4/20/2021 5:09:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: prill64] [#46]
I'm replacing my whole system (AC and Gas Furnace, two systems, 1 up and 1 down).


Quote 1 is a well respected local guy, lots of positive reviews and seems to work solely on referral.

Trane 16 Seer AC and 80% furnace upstairs
Trane 16 Seer AC and 96% Furnace downstairs

15.4k installed



Quote 2 is a well known larger local company.  Again lots of positive reviews, and I checked their inspection failure rate and it's around 1%

Rheem 16 Seer AC and 80% furnace upstairs
Rheem 16 Seer AC and 96% furnace downstairs

15k installed (started at 20k, came down to 17k, and then down to 15k)


I already have concrete pads, and they're in good shape.  Lineset and Ductwork are in good shape and don't need replacing.

I got 2 other quotes from other companies but have eliminated them for various reasons.

The bigger company (quote 2) comes with a big service force and a big company behind it, the local guy seems to care a lot about his reputation and work and has done a number of houses in my area.

I think both quotes are reasonable, and I really like the local guy.

Any thoughts here?
Link Posted: 4/20/2021 8:02:09 PM EST
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ohiogators:


Sizing an AC without a manual J heat load calc is just guessing.  Address the windows first, so that the correct info can be used to size your home.

IMO, furnace should go.  You're saving money doing both at the same time.  

25+ year HVAC tech and contractor in Ohio.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ohiogators:
Originally Posted By BLK_MAJK:
Looking for some guidance on the system in the house we bought last summer.  House is a log home, 2300+ sq ft.  New Marvin Signature windows.  Propane.  NW Ohio.  

Current Setup:
Heat: Carrier Weathermaker 58MXA120-20 : 120K BTU : Installed in 99.  Works great
AC: Payne PA13NA030-B : 2.5 Ton condenser with Carrier 3 Ton Puron N coil : Installed in 2012.  It works correctly, but I think it is undersized.  It can't get house below 76 (would like to be able to maintain 72).  One day in August it ran for 23 hours straight and still only got to 76.

The house has a 2 story great room with a wall of windows that face west, so this room gets very warm, which I'm guessing is a major part of my cooling issues.  I am looking into getting these windows replaced with better glass (they are just basic glass) and/or tinting them to help.  I have blinds on the lower windows, but the upper windows are shaped to follow the A-frame of the roof, so blinds would tough.  

Having said that, it would be easy to call a couple local places and get quotes...but it's not that simple.  I have a very good friend who has VERY good contacts within the building/construction industry.  He can get me new AC equipment for a very steep discount and has people who can do the install, but I don't think he can help me with manual J/sizing.  So that leaves me with basically 2 questions...

Should I only replace the AC?  The furnace works great, plenty of BTU's, 92% AFUE, but it is 22 years old.
What size AC should I be looking for?  Quick internet search tells me anywhere from 3.5-4 ton.

Thanks for any help/suggestions.

Old picture of great room from real estate listing
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/331964/Screenshot_20210407-112440_Zillow_jpg-1896127.JPG




Sizing an AC without a manual J heat load calc is just guessing.  Address the windows first, so that the correct info can be used to size your home.

IMO, furnace should go.  You're saving money doing both at the same time.  

25+ year HVAC tech and contractor in Ohio.


If you know what is there and how it is working it isn't guessing.  Say you have a 3 ton unit that worked just great until a few years ago. Actually experience / data shows a 3 ton is fine.  If the manual J calculation says it needs a 4 ton, which do you think is incorrect?  

Real world data > calculation


Link Posted: 4/20/2021 8:12:50 PM EST
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By not_sure:


If you know what is there and how it is working it isn't guessing.  Say you have a 3 ton unit that worked just great until a few years ago. Actually experience / data shows a 3 ton is fine.  If the manual J calculation says it needs a 4 ton, which do you think is incorrect?  

Real world data > calculation


View Quote


Just because a unit is sitting outside a house doesn’t mean that it is the optimal size.  I’ll never take that as a benchmark to use.

Homeowners usually don’t have the knowledge to tell you what was “working great” because they don’t have anything to compare it to. If they have been keeping the stat at 68° to feel comfortable and the unit kept up, they would think it is working great. Until you put in a smaller unit with longer run times and better dehumidification and all the sudden they are comfortable at 72°.  

Almost 30 years in this trade.  Running a heat load has never failed to turn out a proper result.
Link Posted: 4/20/2021 8:52:25 PM EST
[#49]
Oversized equipment cycles on and off too many times per hour and will wear out parts fast.
Link Posted: 4/21/2021 9:56:21 PM EST
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ohiogators:


Just because a unit is sitting outside a house doesn’t mean that it is the optimal size.  I’ll never take that as a benchmark to use.

Homeowners usually don’t have the knowledge to tell you what was “working great” because they don’t have anything to compare it to. If they have been keeping the stat at 68° to feel comfortable and the unit kept up, they would think it is working great. Until you put in a smaller unit with longer run times and better dehumidification and all the sudden they are comfortable at 72°.  

Almost 30 years in this trade.  Running a heat load has never failed to turn out a proper result.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ohiogators:
Originally Posted By not_sure:


If you know what is there and how it is working it isn't guessing.  Say you have a 3 ton unit that worked just great until a few years ago. Actually experience / data shows a 3 ton is fine.  If the manual J calculation says it needs a 4 ton, which do you think is incorrect?  

Real world data > calculation




Just because a unit is sitting outside a house doesn’t mean that it is the optimal size.  I’ll never take that as a benchmark to use.

Homeowners usually don’t have the knowledge to tell you what was “working great” because they don’t have anything to compare it to. If they have been keeping the stat at 68° to feel comfortable and the unit kept up, they would think it is working great. Until you put in a smaller unit with longer run times and better dehumidification and all the sudden they are comfortable at 72°.  

Almost 30 years in this trade.  Running a heat load has never failed to turn out a proper result.

I had a 3.5 ton unit that wasn't big enough.  I knew it wasn't cooling the house down like I wanted it to do.  The calculation said a 3.5 ton unit was just fine. It wasn't. My AC is now a 2 stage 4 ton which works well.

Any calculation is based on a model and you should never confuse the model with reality.
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