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Posted: 9/13/2004 10:44:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 10:47:41 PM EST by Master_Blaster]
My wife told me she saw a blurb on the scrolling news ticker on FOX or CNN that someone in NYC got charged w/ a misdemeanor for tippping below 18%.

Say wha?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:47:27 PM EST
It was part of a large party where they add the tip to the bill.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:47:35 PM EST
Some restaurants say upfront that a certain gratuity will be added. If you eat there, you accept those terms. If you don't pay as agreed, it could be theft.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:47:46 PM EST
All I know is, if you want more thrusts per squeeze, you gotta tip the ice cream man accordingly.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:48:01 PM EST
It said in the menu that it was a required gratuity. His party was over ten or something. Basically he tried to give himself a discount. Restaurants can certainly raise the price on large tables. He refused to pay the increased rate. It was even in his bill.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:48:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:51:47 PM EST
What is the logic behind automatically charging a % for a group of people? If I'm paying my bill, regardless of if I'm with a group of people or not, I determine what if any tip I think they deserve.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:54:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Some restaurants say upfront that a certain gratuity will be added. If you eat there, you accept those terms. If you don't pay as agreed, it could be theft.



Did the costomer sign a contract, or something? I find the practice dishonest. The establishment could just raise the price of the item that much & sell it that point. Seems to be a figurative slight of hand, not having to present the true, full price up front to the customer.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:07:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 11:07:37 PM EST by thelastgunslinger]

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Some restaurants say upfront that a certain gratuity will be added. If you eat there, you accept those terms. If you don't pay as agreed, it could be theft.



Did the costomer sign a contract, or something? I find the practice dishonest. The establishment could just raise the price of the item that much & sell it that point. Seems to be a figurative slight of hand, not having to present the true, full price up front to the customer.



How is it dishonest if it is stated in the menu? I've only studied law a small amount, but you don't have to sign a piece of paper to form a contract. The contract is formed when you accept the services from the restaurant at the listed price. The included gratuity for large parties was stated on the menu; if he didn't want to tip that much he could have negotiated for a lower amount before ordering. Otherwise he has to pay as he agreed to by accepting the services at the stated price. You don't negotiate price after someone provides a service.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:10:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By USPC40:
What is the logic behind automatically charging a % for a group of people? If I'm paying my bill, regardless of if I'm with a group of people or not, I determine what if any tip I think they deserve.



Because large parties can be a lot of work for the server/busser and affect their capacity to serve other tables. If the large party under tips, which is common because a 20% tip on the bill from a large party can be sunstantial, then the server is screwed because they just put most of their effort into this one party.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:15:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:17:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
I will say this, if I go to a place and the tip is a mandatory amount that comes on the bill, that is all they will get, I won't leave another penny for them. By doing this they completely undermine the whole concept of tipping for service. I know what it is like to work for tips, my first job was bagging groceries at a Military Commisary, for tips only, no hourly wage or slalry of any kind.



It is usually only done with large parties where the servers can be totally screwed if they don't tip.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:18:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:20:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Well if it's mandatory then it's not a gratuity but payment for services.

I think next time I will ask for their SSN number and who I make the 1099 out to so I can deduct it from my taxes.

Tj



How does that work? Can I deduct from my taxes anytime I pay someone to do something?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:23:27 PM EST
im glad to see this happen. i got screwed at work last night because of a party like that.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:39:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:04:01 AM EST
Although there wasn't a signing of a contract, there is an "implied contract". By sitting down and ordering a meal, you don't ever say that you agree to pay the price of the meal, but you imply that you intend to pay for it by ordering it. There is a cieling on the price of an implied contract that varies from state to state. The fact is, the required gratuity was stated on the menu and the party should have known it. As a bartender, I live and die by my tips. Servers in the restaurant that I work in are required to tip out runners and bussers a percentage of thier SALES not thier tips. If they get screwed out of tips for a large party, they may not be able to tip out the bussers and runners without taking a net loss.

So what I am saying is that there was an implied contract and the customer is obligated to pay. And what the hell was he doing anyway thinking he could get away without tipping? If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to eat out. I hate it when cheap bastards come in and complain about the price of beer at a bar. The whole, "I can get a six-pack for that price" thing is horse shit. If you want a six pack, go get one and stay the hell out of my bar.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:08:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:15:38 AM EST

When I was a waiter at a steakhouse, we didn't have this policy, and I got royally screwed a few times. I once waited on a party of eight for an hour and a half exclusively, taking no other tables, and recieved $2 on the entire bill.

Having said that, if someone didn't want to pay the required 18% because of poor service, they absolutely should not have to. By the time you have made plans, driven to a restaurant, waited 20 minutes for a table, sat down, ordered drinks and opened the menu (only to discover the required tip policy), no one wants to get up and go find another restaurant.

Plenty of times I have recieved poor service and left a smaller tip, or no tip at all because of it.

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:46:20 AM EST
p_38 Lightning,

I understand your concern about tips becoming commisions being a bad thing. However, I look at it like a safety net. For most people, tipping is given. However, there are others who don't tip at all and the policy is for those punks. Having this policy is a form of insurance that guarantees that the server will get something. When I used to serve, I would regularly pull in over 20% gratuity because I am good, but there were some people who wouldn't tip because they were cheap bastards or they were ignorant. It is these people who screw it up for the rest of us.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:57:35 AM EST
Raise the price of the food or drink. Why the hell should people take a job with no skill and depend on the charity of the customers then at some point DEMAND they give that charity? You are no different then some low life welfare loser demanding his check. You do a job and your employer should pay you what its worth to do that job. Tough shit if you get min wage. Learn a fucking skill or except your place in the world.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 3:38:02 AM EST
It's dishonest, because these cheap ass resteraunt owners, over the years have figure a way to fiddle fuck the wage laws, so that they don't have to pay their workers dick...

A fucking resteraunt makes as much money or more than my buisness, and they only have to pay their workers $2.15 a hours.. That sirs is crap!!! I have to pay mine $5.25, I pay more, but am not allowed by law to pay less....
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 3:42:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By USPC40:
What is the logic behind automatically charging a % for a group of people? If I'm paying my bill, regardless of if I'm with a group of people or not, I determine what if any tip I think they deserve.



They do that because there are lots of people out there who can't or won't leave a decent tip. Either because they are cheap bastards, or too stupid to figure 15%.

I have no problem with it, in regards to large parties.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 3:44:42 AM EST
Nice Guy Eddie : C'mon, throw in a buck!
Mr. Pink : Uh-uh, I don't tip.
Nice Guy Eddie : You don't tip?
Mr. Pink : I don't believe in it.
Nice Guy Eddie : You don't believe in tipping?
Mr. Blue : You know what these chicks make? They make shit.
Mr. Pink : Don't give me that. She don't make enough money, she can quit.
Nice Guy Eddie : I don't even know a fucking Jew who'd have the balls to say that. Let me get this straight: you never ever tip, huh?
Mr. Pink : I don't tip because society says I have to. Alright, I tip when somebody really deserves a tip. If they put forth an effort, I'll give them something extra. But I mean, this tipping automatically, that's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned they're just doing their job.
Mr. Blue : Hey, this girl was nice.
Mr. Pink : She was okay. But she wasn't anything special.
Mr. Blue : What special? Take you in the back and suck your dick?
Nice Guy Eddie : I'd go over twelve percent for that.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 3:45:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By billparadise:
Nice Guy Eddie : C'mon, throw in a buck!
Mr. Pink : Uh-uh, I don't tip.
Nice Guy Eddie : You don't tip?
Mr. Pink : I don't believe in it.
Nice Guy Eddie : You don't believe in tipping?
Mr. Blue : You know what these chicks make? They make shit.
Mr. Pink : Don't give me that. She don't make enough money, she can quit.
Nice Guy Eddie : I don't even know a fucking Jew who'd have the balls to say that. Let me get this straight: you never ever tip, huh?
Mr. Pink : I don't tip because society says I have to. Alright, I tip when somebody really deserves a tip. If they put forth an effort, I'll give them something extra. But I mean, this tipping automatically, that's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned they're just doing their job.
Mr. Blue : Hey, this girl was nice.
Mr. Pink : She was okay. But she wasn't anything special.
Mr. Blue : What special? Take you in the back and suck your dick?
Nice Guy Eddie : I'd go over twelve percent for that.



Beat me to it.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:03:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:

Since when did tips become a requirement?




Waiters and waitress do not get pay or get their wage from the restaurant (real restaurant)...They made their living based on our tippings. So, when they do good job....pay them correctly.

Of course there are exceptions....Nasty wait deserve nothing.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:04:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:14:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
TIPS to insure proper service. It's a performance based incentive program. It's not supposed to be automatic, it's supposed to be voluntary.

You don't set the tips rate I the customer do.

If I see that groups pay extra shit, I just leave the restaurant. If a tip is added automatically to a credit card bill I cross it out. I alway tip in cash, it is not getting added to the credit card bill ever.


You know why people work as waiters and accept $2.15/hour, it's because they stuff thier pockets with unreported amounts of cash.

Everyone bitches about thier jobs, that's why they call it a job rather than a fun place. If they were getting screwed they would leave, but they don't so don't you fall into the poor waiter or waitress sob story.



Depends on the place, I guess...I know that waiters in upscale restaurants can clear several hundred $$$ a night in tips...and that's all cash off the books...no taxes...it's no wonder you see them working there year after year...they're raking it in, most of it tax free...
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:21:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 4:24:31 AM EST by AR_Rifle]
That's a known fact. Any place that do business with cash will not properly reported their true income. Very hard to keep track or to convict anyone due to no paper trails.

Still, they have to report any tips left on credit cards.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:13:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2004 2:35:09 PM EST by Master_Blaster]

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Some restaurants say upfront that a certain gratuity will be added. If you eat there, you accept those terms. If you don't pay as agreed, it could be theft.



Did the costomer sign a contract, or something? I find the practice dishonest. The establishment could just raise the price of the item that much & sell it that point. Seems to be a figurative slight of hand, not having to present the true, full price up front to the customer.



How is it dishonest if it is stated in the menu? I've only studied law a small amount, but you don't have to sign a piece of paper to form a contract. The contract is formed when you accept the services from the restaurant at the listed price. The included gratuity for large parties was stated on the menu; if he didn't want to tip that much he could have negotiated for a lower amount before ordering. Otherwise he has to pay as he agreed to by accepting the services at the stated price. You don't negotiate price after someone provides a service.



The issue I'm making here is that a "tip" is just that - an extra gratuity given for commendable service. I wasn't abreast of the details of the particular case, which is why I asked, & yes, the customer agrees to the "terms" by engaging in a transaction. But nonetheless, the issue I have is that a "tip" mandated by law guts the meaning of the term. A payment that's not part of a fee for a service/product, & which is mandated by force of law, does not befit the word "tip", "gratuity", or any other term which refers to a voluntary payment for recognition & thanks for services rendered. It is an extra fee beyond the normally specified cost(s). It is dishonest to call it a "tip". It is an added "service fee", if anything, & not a "tip".

You may think I'm nit-picking terminology here, but in fact, I'm not. Maybe I was raised differently, but to me words have specific meaning. Fuzzy use of terminology for the purpose of squeezing revenue w/o having to show the full & complete cost is figurative slight of hand. Maybe the restaurant in this case didn't blur the use of the term & made it clear to the customer, but I have seen plenty of places that engage in this sort of deceptive practice, which I find insulting because implies that the customer is an idiot & can't appreciate or understand the difference between voluntarily tipping & paying an added commission cost.

coltshorty14 & TomJefferson make the point: a commission is not a tip, & restaurants piss on their own. I wonder what % of the mandated "tip" the employer cuts off the top?

I've worked jobs where the bulk of the income came from tips. I did pizza delivery for almost 2 years, & left when it became apparent that we (the delivery drivers) were slowly losing tip money due to bad corporate leadership & management, & a flagging economy. I didn't b!tch & moan to the company to institute an automatic commission policy. Instead, I compared the costs associated w/ delivering using my own car to income from wages + tips & concluded that I was losing money, & so I quit. Simple, really. Restaurants (& servers) should have to deal w/ these same issues, & not receive revenue enhancement via mandated levy, courtesy of the local gov't. That's not what free-market business is about.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:19:39 PM EST
Charges Dropped Against Bad Tipper


Sep 15, 12:25 PM (ET)


LAKE GEORGE, N.Y. (AP) - Charges have been dropped against a man arrested in a restaurant for not leaving a big enough tip.

After researching the case against Humberto Taveras, authorities said Monday that he cannot be forced to pay a gratuity.

Taveras, 41, was charged Sept. 5 with misdemeanor theft of services after he and fellow diners argued with managers at Soprano's Italian and American Grill over a required 18 percent tip for large parties.

Taveras had said he was not completely satisfied with the restaurant's food and left a tip of less than 10 percent.

"I'm glad someone came to their senses up there," said Taveras, who faced up to a year in jail. "Now I can tell my kids, 'Daddy's not a crook.'"

Warren County District Attorney Kate Hogan said if the 18 percent gratuity had been called a surcharge or service charge, Taveras would have been legally obligated to pay it.

Restaurant owner Joe Soprano said he did not pursue charges because of the money but because Taveras' group was obnoxious. "We did what we thought was right," he said.

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