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Posted: 12/25/2008 12:48:09 PM EDT
Yes or no?

Legal by the Feds or need SBR permit?
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 12:48:45 PM EDT
[#1]
actally a AOW but yes a NFA item
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:25:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
actally a AOW but yes a NFA item


yup, it is a no go to put a VFG on a pistol.
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:37:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Send the dog to the neighbor's house and get out the fire extinguishers.  It's going to be a busy nite! Good Luck, We're all pullin' for ya.
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:39:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Yes or no?

Legal by the Feds or need SBR permit?


I wouldnt even KEEP a vertical grip in the home if you have either a Sig 556 pistol or an HK SP89.
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:39:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
actally a AOW but yes a NFA item


Yep, pistol with VFG is an "Any Other Weapon," NFA-regulated but it's a $5 stamp tax instead of $200.
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:40:06 PM EDT
[#6]
As said it would be considdered an AOW and cost you 200 to make it into an AOW.

You are better off to spend the 200 to make it an SBR then you can put your stock on it and the VFG or take the stock off of it and leave the VFG on it.  Its still an SBR even if it doesnt have the stock on it.

Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:40:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes or no?

Legal by the Feds or need SBR permit?


I wouldnt even KEEP a vertical grip in the home if you have either a Sig 556 pistol or an HK SP89.


I would, fuck the ATF.
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:43:05 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
actally a AOW but yes a NFA item


Yep, pistol with VFG is an "Any Other Weapon," NFA-regulated but it's a $5 stamp tax instead of $200.


its still 200 to make an AOW ....... it is only 5 dollars to transfer it.

Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:46:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes or no?

Legal by the Feds or need SBR permit?


I wouldnt even KEEP a vertical grip in the home if you have either a Sig 556 pistol or an HK SP89.


I would, fuck the ATF.


+ 1
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:48:11 PM EDT
[#10]
IIRC, there is no law against this, but the ATF doesn't seem to care. Someone more knowledgeable may shed some light on this.
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 2:54:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Funny, at a buddy's shop the other day.  They had added a VFG on a PLR-16 because it "looked cool".

He got the real face when I told him about his NFA violation and the other violations he was in store for at club fed.

It was quickly removed.




Link Posted: 12/25/2008 3:48:10 PM EDT
[#12]
24.  The 9 millimeter and .22 caliber pistols seized by ATF
were modified by adding an additional grip.

    25.  Title 26, United States Code Section 5845(e) defines
"any other weapon" as:

    ... any weapon or device capable of being concealed from which
    a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosion
    ... Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a
    rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or
    intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of
    firing fixed ammunition.

    26.  A "pistol" is defined in Section 5845 as

    A weapon originally designed, made and intended to fire a
    projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one
    hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of or
    permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock
    designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and
    extending below the line of the bore(s).  27 CFR 178.11
    (emphasis added).

   27.  Even after being modified with grips, the pistols are
still "pistols" as defined above and not "any other weapon" as
defined by 26 U.S.C. section 5845(e).

    28.  The government has agreed to dismiss Count 13 of the
indictment, concerning the possession of a shotgun with a barrel of
less than 18 inches, in light of the Supreme Court's decision in
Thompson/Center Arms, 112 S.Ct. 2102.

                CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATION

    Wherefore, it is recommended that Count 13 be dismissed upon
motion of the government.

    As to the motion to dismiss concerning the silencer kit, this
court concludes that the kit is a silencer as defined by the
statute and that the motion to dismiss should be denied.

    As to the motion concerning the KG9 bolt, this court
recommends that the motion be held in abeyance until the parties
conduct the agreed upon test fire.

    As to the motion to dismiss concerning the two pistols, this
court concludes that the weapons are "pistols" as defined and are
not "any other weapons," and that the motion to dismiss as to the
pistol counts should be granted.



                             [signed]
                             William M. Catoe, Jr.
                             United States Magistrate Judge

June 21, 1993
Greenville, South Carolina

                           FOOTNOTES

1. The delay in filing this recommendation was due to problems
in obtaining the transcript of the hearing, which was received by
this court on June 16, 1993.


          IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

              FOR THE DISTRICT OF SOUTH CAROLINA
   
                       ANDERSON DIVISION


UNITED STATES OF AMERICA          Criminal Number:  8:93-106

    v.                            ORDER

GORDON T.DAVIS, and
SANDA G. DAVIS



    And now, this 24 day of September, 1993, the within Motion is
granted, and it is hereby ordered and decreed that Indictment and
Superseding Indictment Number 8:93-106, against the Defendants,
GORDON T. DAVIS, and SANDRA G. DAVIS, be and the same is hereby
dismissed without prejudice.

                             [signed]
                             HONORABLE G. ROSS ANDERSON, JR
                             UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

Columbia, S.C.
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 4:08:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Appreciate the info, gentlemen.

Relax. Nobody installed a vertical fore grip on any pistol. In fact, the pistol hasn't even arrived yet.

My brother ordered one, and I knew a folding stock of any kind would make it an SBR, but wasn't sure about the foregrip, so I asked.

Now we know the law, nobody owns a foregrip, and nobody even owns the pistol yet.

Dogs are safe, so far, and should remain so for the forseeable future.

Hang on, someone's at the door...
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 4:16:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Well, putting a bipod on there is obviosly OK, or Ruger wouldn't sell any more chargers.

This begs the question, what about a grip pod?
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 4:17:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Are you in a Fed facility, yet?

The FUG and or a stock, even if not attached, is considered intention to build an SBR...

You may win the legal battle but it doesn't cost the ATF a nickel and will cost you, what $50,000 or $100,000 to keep from changing your sexual orientation for 10 years or so.

Think about it, there is no 'win' there. Just submit it to be an SBR and wait until you have the stamp then buy the stock and grip. All is good then.

Link Posted: 12/25/2008 4:17:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
             [signed]
                             HONORABLE G. ROSS ANDERSON, JR
                             UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

Columbia, S.C.
District Judge = Doesn't carry any weight outside that particular district (a very small area in the grand scheme of things).  Circuit or Supreme Court would be something entirely different.

Kharn
Link Posted: 12/25/2008 4:20:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
actally a AOW but yes a NFA item


This shit has been tried twice without conviction.

Anyone know of a conviction?

If a VFG makes a sig 556 pistol an AOW by ATF definition (yes, I have read the letter), then a sig 556 pistol is ALREADY an AOW.

The entire argument hinges on what was "designed to be fired with one hand".  A sig 556 pistol WAS NOT designed to be fired with one hand.  Nor was an AK pistol, nor an AR pistol.

Link Posted: 12/26/2008 4:33:37 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
             [signed]
                             HONORABLE G. ROSS ANDERSON, JR
                             UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

Columbia, S.C.
District Judge = Doesn't carry any weight outside that particular district (a very small area in the grand scheme of things).  Circuit or Supreme Court would be something entirely different.

Kharn


From what I understand the govt refused to appeal the thrown out charges though

What does that mean?
Link Posted: 12/26/2008 4:36:51 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes or no?

Legal by the Feds or need SBR permit?


I wouldnt even KEEP a vertical grip in the home if you have either a Sig 556 pistol or an HK SP89.


Neither would I.  Constructive intent.

Link Posted: 12/26/2008 8:48:27 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
actally a AOW but yes a NFA item


This shit has been tried twice without conviction.

Anyone know of a conviction?




nope but why take the ride
$200 tax stamp is cheaper than a 20K attorney

Link Posted: 12/26/2008 8:50:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Send the dog to the neighbor's house and get out the fire extinguishers.  It's going to be a busy nite! Good Luck, We're all pullin' for ya.


Link Posted: 12/26/2008 8:56:16 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
actally a AOW but yes a NFA item


Yep, pistol with VFG is an "Any Other Weapon," NFA-regulated but it's a $5 stamp tax instead of $200.


Are you sure?
Link Posted: 12/26/2008 9:08:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
I would fuck the ATF.


The reverse is actually much more likely.
Link Posted: 12/26/2008 9:29:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
actally a AOW but yes a NFA item


This shit has been tried twice without conviction.

Anyone know of a conviction?




nope but why take the ride
$200 tax stamp is cheaper than a 20K attorney



Isn't an AOW $5 rather than $200?
Link Posted: 12/26/2008 9:32:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
actally a AOW but yes a NFA item


This shit has been tried twice without conviction.

Anyone know of a conviction?




nope but why take the ride
$200 tax stamp is cheaper than a 20K attorney



Isn't an AOW $5 rather than $200?



$200 to create  $5 to transfer
Link Posted: 12/26/2008 9:44:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes or no?

Legal by the Feds or need SBR permit?


I wouldnt even KEEP a vertical grip in the home if you have either a Sig 556 pistol or an HK SP89.


That's bullshit. As long as you have a legal use for whatever you have, you're GTG.
Link Posted: 12/26/2008 9:44:13 PM EDT
[#27]
DT...
Link Posted: 12/26/2008 9:47:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:

That's bullshit. As long as you have a legal use for whatever you have, you're GTG.


so do any of you guys with VFGs on your rifle  dispose of any  handguns with light rails on them you may have owned  ?

remember when CTD had a glock with a pistol grip attached to the light rail on the cover

Link Posted: 12/26/2008 9:58:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Just checking in to see if the dogs are still ok???
Link Posted: 12/27/2008 3:38:51 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
             [signed]
                             HONORABLE G. ROSS ANDERSON, JR
                             UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

Columbia, S.C.
District Judge = Doesn't carry any weight outside that particular district (a very small area in the grand scheme of things).  Circuit or Supreme Court would be something entirely different.

Kharn

From what I understand the govt refused to appeal the thrown out charges though
What does that mean?
Thats their normal response when a citizen wins and they believe they cant win on appeal. Refusing to appeal prevents the case from going higher (winners cant appeal) and having broader reach; basically, its damage control.  

Kharn
Link Posted: 12/27/2008 3:55:11 AM EDT
[#31]



Quoted:



Quoted:



Quoted:



Quoted:



[signed]

HONORABLE G. ROSS ANDERSON, JR

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE



Columbia, S.C.

District Judge = Doesn't carry any weight outside that particular district (a very small area in the grand scheme of things). Circuit or Supreme Court would be something entirely different.



Kharn


From what I understand the govt refused to appeal the thrown out charges though

What does that mean?
Thats their normal response when a citizen wins and they believe they cant win on appeal. Refusing to appeal prevents the case from going higher (winners cant appeal) and having broader reach; basically, its damage control.



Kharn


IOW, no binding precedent, the ATF has continued to claim (seen the letters in other threads) that a VFG on a pistol makes an AOW even though it's not possible under the statue.  Logic does not apply to the ATF, never has, never will.  You'd be my hero if you had the money and balls to take them to task, ideally through getting the tax stamp, then suing for a refund on grounds that it wasn't necessary.  This would be the way to do it as you would be safe AND have standing.  Frankly I don't see how the case could be lost unless the judge was quite simply a lying piece of shit.  The statute is plain as day.

Link Posted: 12/27/2008 4:05:43 AM EDT
[#32]
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