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Posted: 12/11/2003 11:56:41 AM EDT
I and my friend Hawkeye were recently discussing whether sheetrock walls were cover or concealment, i.e., did they stop bullets? And if so, what calibers?
Having a lot of time on my hands, I decided to conduct an experiment. I went and got materials and built two walls. (Tman, my friend, used his truck, gasoline, and time to help me. He always gripes that I don't give him credit. Well, here it is.  )Heres the two walls, joined like in a corner.  We shot through it with several calibers. We shot so as to go through all 4 pieces of wallboard. Here's me shooting it with a .45 ACP.  We shot at 10 feet, about 1/2 the distance of an average room. We also shot as level as possible, which required us to squat for the lower shots. Tman is shooting it with a AR here:  We used: Glock 34 9mm Ball and 9 mm JHP Springfield 1911 .45 ACP Ball & JHP AR15 RR M-Forgery .223 Ball Maverick Pump 12 gauge, OO Buck, and #4 Buck Short story...everything we shot went through 4 sheets of 1/2 inch sheetrock like it wasn't there. The .223's actually tumbled and went into the second wall sideways. See pick:  The 12 gauge 00 buck was impressive. It went through 4 sheets of wallboard and then blew a 2 inch thick backup board in half.  The 12 gauge 00 buch made a 2 3/4 inch entrance hole. You have to aim. Observations: 1. All calibers tested went through two walls easily. Sheetrock walls provide concealment (hide you), not cover (protection). 2. .223 will tumble after the first wall. 3. At inside ranges, a shotgun must be aimed. Many mistakenly think "all you have to do is point in the general direction". If you do, you may miss. 4. Shooting up stuff is fun. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:02:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Cool. I bet that .223 lost a whole lot of velocity going through the second set of walls sideways.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:06:27 PM EDT
[#2]
That's great! Thanks!
I was going to set up the same thing with all this extra drywall from my house project. I gather you set up an "inside" wall with no insulation? What did the 45 do and how big of a hole did it punch? I'm curious what an outside wall set up would do? (Drywall, insulation, 3/8 chip and vinyl siding) |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:08:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Was there really a doubt that the defensive rounds used wouldn't make it through the sheet rock or did you guys just do this for fun???
Edited to ask, were there studs between the four studs making up the wall or just pure sheet rock? |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:08:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Good demo.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:10:37 PM EDT
[#5]
What brand of .223 was that? No deformation or fracturing!
Who really things sheetrock is any type of barrier. A .22 CB Long fired out of a rifle will pop out the other side of a 2*4, but just barely. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:11:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Cool. I bet that .223 lost a whole lot of velocity going through the second set of walls sideways. To my surprise, it punched right through a 2 inch thich back-up board we set up behind the walls. Even sideways. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:12:22 PM EDT
[#7]
What type of choke did that Maverick have? What length barrel?
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:14:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: That's great! Thanks! I was going to set up the same thing with all this extra drywall from my house project. I gather you set up an "inside" wall with no insulation? What did the 45 do and how big of a hole did it punch? I'm curious what an outside wall set up would do? (Drywall, insulation, 3/8 chip and vinyl siding) That's correct, no insulation. If I do more experiments, we may try it with insulation. The .45 and the 9mm went through and made the same size holes all the way through the 4 pieces. Seemed to go straight also. Since the .223 tumbled, it seemed to deviate from a straight line more. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:16:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Was there really a doubt that the defensive rounds used wouldn't make it through the sheet rock or did you guys just do this for fun??? Edited to ask, were there studs between the four studs making up the wall or just pure sheet rock? I didn't have much doubt. But Hawkeye and I discussed how some will argue in posts whether this is true. I wanted to settle the argument. There were no studs. I could have had some, but then it would confuse the issue unless all rounds hit the studs exactly the same way. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:18:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Good work! This is something I've been meaning to do myself, just never found the time.
Curious to see what differences (if any) there would be with insulation, outdoor stucco, maybe cement backerboard with ceramic tiles like you would find in a shower, etc. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:20:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: What type of choke did that Maverick have? What length barrel? It has no choke. I cut it off at 19 inches and did not replace the choke. Nevertheless, it made a 2 3/4 inch entrance hole at 10 feet. We then backed up and shot it again at 25 feet and got this pattern: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=20416[/img] As you can see, it made a 9 inch pattern. It was a 3 inch Remington 00 Buckshot load, with 12 pellets. Kicks like a mule. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:22:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Good work! This is something I've been meaning to do myself, just never found the time. Curious to see what differences (if any) there would be with insulation, outdoor stucco, maybe cement backerboard with ceramic tiles like you would find in a shower, etc. Thanks! If you guys want to kick in for materials, Tman and I will build and shoot anything you want to study. [:D] |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:26:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: What brand of .223 was that? No deformation or fracturing! Who really things sheetrock is any type of barrier. A .22 CB Long fired out of a rifle will pop out the other side of a 2*4, but just barely. The .223 was South African military surplus, 55 grain. I was a little surprised myself that it didn't fracture at the cannelure. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:27:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Has anyone tried this with frangible rounds like SafeTslugs?
I'd like to see those results. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:33:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Now for the real question:
How many layers of sheetrock are required to capture 100 percent of any given caliber, type, and velocity? Let's start out small. How many layers for a .30-06, 180 gr. boat tailed spire point at the max velocity you've ever heard of for this round? CJ |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:37:50 PM EDT
[#16]
I set up a little target in our steel barn and shot some Colibri powderless .22 ( 20gr. @ 375 fps.) out of a Buckmark and it penetrated the target and the barn at 20 yds. Surprised the hell out of me. Corrugated steel, not sure what gauge.
Set back my plans of a stealth range here in the city. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:49:06 PM EDT
[#17]
First off – Thank you OP and Hawk for doing this. People are all too often eager to repeat things they hear without considering the need that – hey – maybe this notion needs to backed up, huh?
You’re not the only person to question the claim that a .223 round is less likely to penetrate walls when compared to your run-of-the-mill self-defense pistol and shotgun rounds – keep up the good work. (Now I’ll just sit back and wait for the gelatin folks to rip your hard work in to pieces) For some interesting reading on this subject: [url]ammolab.com/_223_vs_handguns.htm[/url] [url]olyarms.com/223cqb.html[/url] [url]firearmstactical.com[/url] and of course, the excellent: [url]ammo-oracle.com[/url] |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:59:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: First off – Thank you OP and Hawk for doing this. People are all too often eager to repeat things they hear without considering the need that – hey – maybe this notion needs to backed up, huh? Me too, good work! It's not much of a surprise, but it's nice to know for sure. And it looks like it was fun. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:02:38 PM EDT
[#19]
I am going to be setting up some similar walls myself. I have in the past, but need to do some new ones. One thing I am going to do, in addition to what OP did, was to capture the rounds after they pass through, in water jugs. My intent is NOT going to be to test the performance of the bullet per say, but to be able to discern its condition AFTER it passes through the walls. I am going to do some exterior walls as well, make from leftovers from when my house was built.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:07:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: First off – Thank you OP and Hawk for doing this. People are all too often eager to repeat things they hear without considering the need that – hey – maybe this notion needs to backed up, huh? You are so right. I always grin when I read something like, "I bet a 9mm won't penetrate a ...etc." I always think; Why don't you try it. Then you'll know. You’re not the only person to question the claim that a .223 round is less likely to penetrate walls when compared to your run-of-the-mill self-defense pistol and shotgun rounds – keep up the good work. Actually, it was the opposite thing I was suspecious about. Someone had claimed that a shotgun was better in a home because it woudln't penetrate as much as other weapons. My test sure didn't indicate this. Mine went through 4 pieces of sheetrock and then blew a 2 inch thick board in half. Looks like a "penetration problem" to me. Thanks for the input. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:07:50 PM EDT
[#21]
[beer]Thanks for the laboratory lesson! I'd also be eager to see what the same would do with a hollow-core interior door, an exterior door, a solid-core door, car door, the possibilities are endless.
I love "Barnyard Ballistics" |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:10:01 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: [beer]Thanks for the laboratory lesson! I'd also be eager to see what the same would do with a hollow-core interior door, an exterior door, a solid-core door, car door, the possibilities are endless. I love "Barnyard Ballistics" Me too! I only wish Hawkeye and I lived closer so that we could take some of the doors out of his new house and see how they stood up to gunfire. [:D] |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:12:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Good experiment.
Next time, paint the walls on both sides and add some insulation...that way it'll be a little more similar to what you'd find in a house. If you have some, try some 75gr Hornady or some 77gr Nosler rounds. I've been meaning to do this myself, but work has gotten in the way. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:15:43 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Actually, it was the opposite thing I was suspecious about. Someone had claimed that a shotgun was better in a home because it woudln't penetrate as much as other weapons. My test sure didn't indicate this. I may have said this, but I was NOT referring to 00 buck. Test have shown that #4 is about as big as you can go without interior wall penetration becoming a major issue. (hopefully that makes sense) Next time, try some #4 buck. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:16:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Too bad you didn't put a watermelon behind the wall just so you can get an idea how much energy is left over. The Gunny would have. [;)]
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:17:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Good experiment. Next time, paint the walls on both sides and add some insulation...that way it'll be a little more similar to what you'd find in a house. We considered that. Down here, most homes do not have insulation in interior walls. the texture and paint might make a little difference, but probably not much. If you have some, try some 75gr Hornady or some 77gr Nosler rounds. I didn't have any in inventory. If you will send me a few....[:D] I've been meaning to do this myself, but work has gotten in the way. Lucky for me, Tman is retired and his wife is understanding about trips to the range. I am a single guy and can do as I please. So, we have plenty of time. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:18:57 PM EDT
[#27]
About a year ago I heard from a SWAT guy that they were switching from MP5s to M4s. They had an incident where a suspect was hiding behind a laundry basket full of clothes and their 9mm rounds would not penetrate the laundry. Maybe we need a laundry closet test.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:19:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Thank you for showing this, hopefully this will put at ease a few arguments.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:24:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: I may have said this, but I was NOT referring to 00 buck. Test have shown that #4 is about as big as you can go without interior wall penetration becoming a major issue. (hopefully that makes sense) Next time, try some #4 buck. Glad you asked! As a matter of fact, I [u]did[/u] shoot #4 Buck. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=20421[/img] You will notice that at 10 feet, the individual pellets are clearly distinguishable. You can also see the hole that the shot cup made in the first sheet. (The shot cup stopped in the wall.) The #4 Buck proceeded to go through all four walls like caca through a goose. A fine round, but it over penetrates just like the rest. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:28:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Too bad you didn't put a watermelon behind the wall just so you can get an idea how much energy is left over. The Gunny would have. [;)] What a great idea! Maybe I could even get my friend Searcherfortruth to stand behind the target and hold the watermelon. He is a Marine after all. [:D] |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:29:34 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: I set up a little target in our steel barn and shot some Colibri powderless .22 ( 20gr. @ 375 fps.) out of a Buckmark and it penetrated the target and the barn at 20 yds. Surprised the hell out of me. Corrugated steel, not sure what gauge. Set back my plans of a stealth range here in the city. Wow, that surprises me too. From an 18.5”-barreled 10/22, they make more noise hitting the target than firing, and they often squib in a 20” barrel. I guess they lose less velocity through pistol barrels. Still, I would have never thought they would penetrate much more then cardboard. As for the .223, I’m sure that a 40gr Ballistic Tip would fragment on impact (heck, it will fly apart in the air from a 1/7 twist barrel). The real question is whether the fragments would penetrate the second piece of sheetrock. My guess is that they would. Edited to add: Sorry to sound so pessimistic; but it seems unlikely to me that ANY projectile that will penetrate +12” of flesh (even 9” or 6” for that matter) would be stopped by a 4” space containing 4 pieces of sheetrock. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’d have to see it to believe it. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:35:02 PM EDT
[#32]
[b]Great[/b] practical exercise, [b]Old_Painless{/b] and [b]Tman[/b]. Thanks for sharing the results with us.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:38:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: As for the .223, I’m sure that a 40gr Ballistic Tip would fragment on impact (heck, it will fly apart in the air from a 1/7 twist barrel). The real question is whether the fragments would penetrate the second piece of sheetrock. My guess is that they would. Well Cato556, please don't take this the wrong way, but it is comments such as yours that sent me to the range today. The fact is...we don't know [b]what[/b] a 40gr Ballistic Tip will do until we shoot it into a wall. There is only one way to know. Send me some rounds. [:D] |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:50:25 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: As for the .223, I’m sure that a 40gr Ballistic Tip would fragment on impact (heck, it will fly apart in the air from a 1/7 twist barrel). The real question is whether the fragments would penetrate the second piece of sheetrock. My guess is that they would. Well Cato556, please don't take this the wrong way, but it is comments such as yours that sent me to the range today. The fact is...we don't know [b]what[/b] a 40gr Ballistic Tip will do until we shoot it into a wall. There is only one way to know. Send me some rounds. [:D] Fair enough. I like doing this kind of thing too (if in a somewhat less formal manner), so maybe I’ll try to get someone I know to test this if circumstances permit. BTW; good test, thanks for the info. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:50:55 PM EDT
[#35]
OP, you said that you use 3 inch shot. Will your shotgun take 2 1/2 inch shells?
I'm not suprised that 3 inch shells would do that, but wonder what 2 1/2 inch would do in #4 buck, or bird. I've set up hy defense load with 1 bird, 2 00 buck, and 3 slugs, in that order in the tube. If the bird doesn't do the trick, then hopefully 2 00 buck will, and if not, partitioned slugs had better work!! |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 2:10:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Good test guys.
We had a local shooting here recently, where a guy walks into an adult book store and shoots the cashier THREE times with 12 ga. #8 bird shot at ranges inside 20 feet. The guy's wounds were nasty to clean up and heal, but he was in no danger of death. So I decided to up my home defense load to #4 shot from the #7.5 shot I was using. I have five small children so this kind of wall-penetration stuff matters to me. However, I have turned sheetrock into talcum powder at the range using #8 bird shot at 10 feet. The spread was probably about 6 inches from my Winchester 1300 with 18" bbl. So I figured that small shot was as big as I wanted to go. But after that recent real life shooting, I am going to stay with the #4 shot. The LEO's I discussed the case with agreed that was probably the best combination of power vs. penetration to get the job done, but not cause collateral damage as it zings around the house. My $.02. Edited to add: It looks like you guys mudded the walls too. Damn... you guys are thurough. I applaud your desire for proof over opinions. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 2:30:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: I and my friend Hawkeye were recently discussing whether sheetrock walls were cover or concealment Define "sheetrock" 1/2" pieces of Slate, like in a 200 year old farm house? Or Modern Drywall? |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 2:51:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Nice, I thank you. A couple points, one major, one minor.
Insulation makes a difference, but y'all fussin about this need to stop and think, very few interior walls are insulated. This is a good room to room test. Secondly, that probably wasn't sheetrock (cementboard), but drywall, right? Or is this terminology regional? |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 2:54:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: OP, you said that you use 3 inch shot. Will your shotgun take 2 1/2 inch shells? I'm not suprised that 3 inch shells would do that, but wonder what 2 1/2 inch would do in #4 buck, or bird. I've set up hy defense load with 1 bird, 2 00 buck, and 3 slugs, in that order in the tube. If the bird doesn't do the trick, then hopefully 2 00 buck will, and if not, partitioned slugs had better work!! My gun will take either, Hydguy. What size shot do you use in the bird shot loads? Next time, I'll try some of those for you. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 2:59:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Define "sheetrock" 1/2" pieces of Slate, like in a 200 year old farm house? Or Modern Drywall? Secondly, that probably wasn't sheetrock (cementboard), but drywall, right? Or is this terminology regional You guys are right. It is a regional thing, I guess. I was using 1/2 inch drywall, which we call sheetrock down here. On the way to the range, we were talking about how you guys up north use plaster walls on board underlayment. I'm sure that stuff is much harder. I may be wrong, but I believe that modern construction is using 1/2 inch drywall all over the country. That's why we were using that today. If you guys have plastered walls or cement or brick, then all bets are off. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:06:58 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: I may be wrong, but I believe that modern construction is using 1/2 inch drywall all over the country. For interior walss, yes. For exterior here they use partical board, chicken wire, & plaster ("Stucco". Where my dad lives they are making exterior walls out of that Blue sheet styrofoam, with vinyle siding directly over that. No wood at all in the exterior. If I ever build my own home its going to have a steel frame, steel "spanish tile" roof and yet to be determined walls. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:14:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Great experiment! It helps to know what you are working with and what results you can expect in any situation. I'm fairly certain that you could expect that .223 to travel completely through your house no matter where it was fired from, at least it would in my one story bungalow.
With this in mind it would be important to realize your attackers' points of attack and your response to make sure there is nothing down range that you would be responsible for like neighbors or traffic or whatever. Thanks O_P |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:24:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Great experiment! It helps to know what you are working with and what results you can expect in any situation. I'm fairly certain that you could expect that .223 to travel completely through your house no matter where it was fired from, at least it would in my one story bungalow. With this in mind it would be important to realize your attackers' points of attack and your response to make sure there is nothing down range that you would be responsible for like neighbors or traffic or whatever. Thanks O_P You bring up an important issue, gilfrd. That is....what should we do as a result of this experiment. I believe that it shows that most any defensive round will go through a couple of interior walls if it doesn't hit anything else. Therefore, it is important to [b]not miss[/b] the bad guy. So, how can I most likely assure no misses? For me, it means using a rifle, particularly an AR15 variant. I can be most sure of a hit with this weapon. As Clint Smith teaches at Thunder Ranch, if you have a choice always use: First - A rifle, magazine fed, AR type. Secondly - A shotgun with 00 Buckshot Thirdly - A handgun, preferably one that's caliber starts with at least a four. He has a lot of experience and I think he is right. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:28:53 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Quoted: What type of choke did that Maverick have? What length barrel? It has no choke. I cut it off at 19 inches and did not replace the choke. Nevertheless, it made a 2 3/4 inch entrance hole at 10 feet. We then backed up and shot it again at 25 feet and got this pattern: [url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=20416[/url] As you can see, it made a 9 inch pattern. It was a 3 inch Remington 00 Buckshot load, with 12 pellets. Kicks like a mule. WOW! That tight of a group with a straight cylinder. You really do need to aim. Good thing to know. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:35:54 PM EDT
[#45]
I was actually going to do my thesis for graduate school on developing an inexpensive bullet resistant wall system.
In South Florida all the exterior walls for houses are concrete block (CMU). I keep magnum turkey load birdshot (#6 I think? been awhile since I checked it) in my scattergun for HD. I always meant to check what it would do. Maybe if my local range opens back up. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:41:47 PM EDT
[#46]
... and they say this site is useless, great going guys!
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:42:32 PM EDT
[#47]
We had a local shooting here recently, where a guy walks into an adult book store and shoots the cashier THREE times with 12 ga. #8 bird shot at ranges inside 20 feet. The guy's wounds were nasty to clean up and heal, but he was in no danger of death. That had to sting!!!!! [shock] |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:45:12 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Good test guys. We had a local shooting here recently, where a guy walks into an adult book store and shoots the cashier THREE times with 12 ga. #8 bird shot at ranges inside 20 feet. The guy's wounds were nasty to clean up and heal, but he was in no danger of death. Very interesting data, red_Label. Even more important than mine. Yet we still see many recommending bird shot. I suspect that those that recommend it have shot a piece of drywall and looked at the big hole and said, "I bet this would blow a big hole in a bad guy". Only if the bad guy is made of drywall. So I decided to up my home defense load to #4 shot from the #7.5 shot I was using. I have five small children so this kind of wall-penetration stuff matters to me. It ought to. However, I have turned sheetrock into talcum powder at the range using #8 bird shot at 10 feet. The spread was probably about 6 inches from my Winchester 1300 with 18" bbl. So I figured that small shot was as big as I wanted to go. But after that recent real life shooting, I am going to stay with the #4 shot. The LEO's I discussed the case with agreed that was probably the best combination of power vs. penetration to get the job done, but not cause collateral damage as it zings around the house. My $.02. As you may know, I'm an ex-LEO and tend to like those guys. But that doesn't mean that they are experts on ballistics. Most aren't. I doubt that they have any knowledge about the effectiveness of #4 birdshot any more than you or I. The only way to know is to build a couple of walls and ....you get the idea. Edited to add: It looks like you guys mudded the walls too. Damn... you guys are thurough. I applaud your desire for proof over opinions. I'm am a little bit of a perfectionest, but we didn't float and mud the walls. I'm not that nuts. Just drywall. [:D] |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:49:50 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: I was actually going to do my thesis for graduate school on developing an inexpensive bullet resistant wall system. If you are re-decorating, use cementboard and pack it tight with fiberglass. If nothing else, every little bit helps, right? Would any of you think seriously about making certain parts of your house truly bulletproof, for you use if need be? You know, strategic spots for cover that ou knew, as opposed to the vulnerable places the bad guy would be. I would really like to see a setup with this, two, then three, four, etc to see how far the .223 rounds penetrate. Some mechanism to check wound potential would be good, both drywall and as I describe. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 4:01:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Have you taken into account the distance between interior walls (ie: room width simulation) having any effect on the penetration or breakup of the projectile?
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