In a shrewd maneuver, Ariel Sharon has countered the 'Saudi Peace Plan'...with this:
'Come talk to [u]us[/u] about it...personally.'

[size=4]Sharon to Saudis: Meet us or no deal[/size=4]
By Gil Hoffman, Jerusalem Post

JERUSALEM (March 1) - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon sent a clear message to Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz al-Saud yesterday that, [b]without contact between Israel and Saudi Arabia[/b], his peace deal is doomed to fail.

Abdullah's initiative calls for Israel to withdraw to the pre-1967 lines in return for full diplomatic relations, normalized trade, and security guarantees from Arab countries.

Heads of state and foreign ministers from around the world continued to praise the initiative yesterday, while urging Sharon not to reject it. Jordanian Prince Raad Bin Zaid asked Sharon to respond positively to the plan at a ceremony in Eilat marking the change of the name of the Arava crossing to the Yitzhak Rabin Border Terminal.

Sharon spoke immediately after the prince and noted that Israel's peace with Jordan was made possible by the late King Hussein's willingness to meet personally with Rabin.

"Let us walk together in the path of the vision and legacy of both leaders who forged the model for relations between our peoples," Sharon said. "Let us proceed with peace-building steps before signing formal agreements."

Sharon confidants said that when the prime minister said "peace-building steps," he was referring to his call for the Saudis to send a representative to explain their initiative to Israel, whether publicly, secretly, or through a third party. Such a step must be taken, they said, before the initiative can truly progress.

Sharon also hinted at a weakness of the initiative, which does not entail how to end a year and a half of Palestinian violence. Sharon added an unplanned sentence to his prepared speech, saying that terror, violence, and incitement must end before peace is possible.

Sharon was apparently issuing a thinly veiled message to the Saudis via the Jordanian prince, that Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat must get his people under control before there can be any advancement of the Saudi proposal.

Sharon reportedly passed along similar messages through his foreign policy adviser, Danny Ayalon, who met with Jordanian Foreign Minister Marwan Muasher in Amman yesterday.

However, Saudi Arabia, bolstered by European and American support, said the burden is not on themselves or the Palestinians, but on Israel to accept the initiative.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell sent Assistant Secretary of State for Near East Affairs William Burns and CIA Director George Tenet to Saudi Arabia for meetings with the crown prince and other top Saudi officials.

- continued -

Abdullah, the Saudi de facto ruler, told European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana he would press ahead with his plan to get the initiative adopted at the Arab summit, scheduled to begin in Beirut on March 27.

"This is an initiative that we from our side have supported," Solana told reporters in Egypt. "It's for the Arab countries now to work on it, accept it in the summit. I hope that it will be unanimously accepted.

"It is a good initiative, and as Crown Prince Abdullah told me, he wants to convert this initiative into an Arab-world initiative that signifies final reconciliation between the Arab world and Israel if it comes true, and I hope it comes true."

Solana, on a whirlwind regional tour, will take his shuttle diplomacy to the United States next week for talks with US officials and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan on the Saudi land-for-peace proposal, his spokeswoman said.

"I think it is extremely important that we consider [the initiative] very seriously as we search for ways and means to break the current tragic impasse in the region," Annan said in Berlin.

In a speech to the UN Security Council Wednesday, Saudi Arabia's UN Ambassador Fawzi Shobokshi reiterated Abdullah's demands for a complete Israeli pullout and offered peace and "good neighborly relations" in return, but he never mentioned recognition of the Jewish state and devoted most of the speech to an attack on Israel.

Foreign Minister Shimon Peres said he was disappointed in the speech. He told Israel Radio that the government should encourage a Saudi peace proposal, despite its flaws, and suggested combining it with the American Tenet and Mitchell plans and his own plan that he formulated with Palestinian Legislative Council Speaker Ahmed Qurei.

"What is required now is that Saudi Arabians develop this initiative and make its details public," Peres told Kuwait's Al-Watan daily in an interview published

See article at:[url]http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/01/News/News.44376.html[/url]

Eric The(NotABettingMan)Hun[>]:)]

Looks as if Sharon is terrified of peace.
No surprises here.

(I do believe Sharon is dumb enough to further isolate Israel by atempting to destroy this 'Arab' peace initiative.)

5subslr5, if the Saudis won't even come meet with the Israelis concerning their vaunted 'peace plan', what makes [b]you[/b] think the peace offer is serious?

Shrewd move to force the Saudi's hand.

Confer now, if you say you will confer later!

Israel has nothing to lose. When was the last time the European community could be accused of being pro-Israel?

Maybe 1972, after Munich Olympic Massacre?

But surely not since! And I doubt that Israel worries that the present US Administration would abandon it, peace treaty or not.

Eric The(Sensible)Hun[>]:)]

The titile of your thread:  "Sharon Raises Ante For Saudi Peace Proposal"

If you read the title it states that Sharon raises barriers for peace.  Of course that's what Sharon is trying to do.

Sharon's real problems with trying to keep this confiflcit between Israel and the Palestinians going will come from his own people - from within Israel - and that's as it should be.

that will never work. looking at my map, before israel has direct contact with saudi arabia, jordan will have to get out of the way.

i can see them now, arguing over whether saudi arabia gets jordan, or israel gets it. i propose a compromise, israel gets jordan, and saudi arabia takes iraq.

what do you think, good plan? ;)

Pardon me, 5subslr5, but don't let my self-designated status as the Israeli Spokesman on AR15.com, fool you - I don't speak for the Israeli government or Prime Minister Sharon.

My use of the term 'ante' was simply how I chose to describe Sharon's response. And it simply means that since there was [b]no[/b] requirement in the initial Saudi peace proposal that Saudis and Israelis meet, the insistence by Ariel Sharon for such a meeting as a 'quid pro quo' for Israeli consideration of the proposal, struck me as 'upping the ante' in a high stakes poker game.

Beat up on me for my poor choice of words, but Let My People Go.

Ooops, right people, wrong circumstance.

Eric The(Misguided)Hun[>]:)]

lurker,
I like it !!
[:D]

Eric,
I believe your topic heading was correct whether by accident or design.

(This is not meant as a smart-ass remark.)  Please keep checking the newspapers of Israel.
That's where I believe the first meaningful indicator regarding Sharon's desire for war will come from - will the people of Israel back Sharon in his attempt to destroy this 'Arab" peace proposal ?
Ultimately, I do not believe they will back Sharon.

A better title would have been "[b]Sharon Attempts Damage Control![/b]"

Stick a fork in him!  Sharon is done!

Unless, of course, he can manufacture some brilliant PR opportunity to improve his image.  His "counter offer" to the Saudis, just isn't fooling anybody at home or abroad!

DaMan    

Then you must think it's wrong for Sharon to ask for a sit-down with the Saudis first, and that the Israeli people will think that it's wrong for Sharon to ask for a sit-down first!

And I don't think that such a move is wrong, nor do I believe that the Israeli people will say it's wrong, either!

Course both he and I could be wrong!

Eric The(Naw!)Hun[>]:)]

And if Abdullah will not agree to such a sit-down, do you still think that his original offer was genuine?

Eric The(JustWondering)Hun[>]:)]

E.T. HUN,
what Sharon is attempting to do is de-rail the 'Arab" peace proposal by telling the Arabs to come to 'HIM'!

Plainly these talks should be held in a neutral country.

[:D]
[:D]

Post from 5subslr5 -

I don't know if they play poker in Saudi Arabia or not, but what Prince Abdullah should do then, [b]if he is really serious[/b], is to raise the ante by accepting Sharon's offer and scheduling the meeting for a neutral country!

Like Iran![:D]

And [u]these[/u] are the guys that Israel should trust with its security?

Eric The(NotInThisWorldNorTheWorldToCome!)Hun[>]:)]

Eric,
for years I hoped one of the Palestinians might hear of Ghandi.

One Israeli tank running over one peacefully sitting Palestinian and Israel would have lost.

This proposal by the Arabians is almost as good.  With no threats from multiple Arab - probably should say Muslim countries to include Iran - Israel is just a small and insignificant country so far as a player on the world stage.

No large threats means far fewer US taxpayer dollars to Israel.

Sharon is nervous and he should be.

(Purely conjecture but I believe Colin Powell's hand is some where in this.)

Post from 5subslr5 -

Now why in the world would that be, subsailor?

Several dozens of families sitting peacefully in a Sbarro's Pizzaria and a few babies being blown apart simply did not end anyone's love of the Palestinians!

Several hundred civilians being blown to pieces in shopping centers, markets, Bat Mitzvahs, weddings, discos (remember the Dolphinium?), and several other less public places has never for a second blunted some people's love of the Palestinians!

But you're probably right, 'cause we have more high hopes for Israeli actions in dealing with the Palestinians than we do the other way around!

Luckily, they most always meet our lofty expectations, in the same manner as Palestinians always meet our worst expectations, as well!

Gee, it must be wonderful being on the right side of human history, subsailor, I wish I could join you, but I can't.

Eric The(TheGoodNewsIsThatIsraelWinsInTheEnd...Times)Hun[>]:)]

It is.
[:D]

Not very likely![:D] [>]:)]

I don't know. I have my doubts.

Does anyone think that things have changed sufficiently that Syria will do something about the Golan Heights or that Lebanon will control the west bank so that Palestinians can't use them to launch attacks from?

The Arab world doesn't really give a damn about the Palestinians, except insofar as they act as a proxy army to try and remove the Jewish stain from the middle of Allah country.

I [b]still[/b] want to know what's so friggin' wonderful about the pre-'67 borders.  The whole reason the Israel took those bits of land was the continuing attacks launched from them against Israel.  What in this latest "land for peace" give-away will guaranteed the attacks stop?

Here's a nice sample of how fair the press is when dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian issue:

This is a photo from an AP story on the recent Israeli attack on the two refugee camps as shown on Yahoo.com:
[img]http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020228/lthumb.1014911348mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl109.jpg[/img]

The caption of the photo reads thus:

"A Palestinian gunman from the Al Aqsa Brigades, right, looks at Israeli troops while a [b]Palestinian civilian bystander[/b], left, runs from the area at the Balata refugee camp in the West Bank town of Nablus Thursday Feb. 28, 2002...." (AP Photo/Nasser Ishtayeh)

Now tell me, does that fellow on the left look to you like a 'Palestinian civilian bystander' or more like a member of the Al Aqsa Brigades who's just about to pull his ski-mask down over his face, after motioning the guy on the right with his hand to some target(?)?

Suddenly, I don't feel so bad when the news has 'several Palestinian civilian bystanders' were shot and wounded/killed.' Not if they look as threatening as this one does!

Tell me the truth - in a Shoot/No Shoot situation would you shoot them both? I know I would, but then you guys think I would shoot them both if they were getting cleaned up for supper!

Eric The(That'sAJoke,SortOf)Hun[>]:)]

Israel has always wanted to talk about security issues before anything else, like UN Resolution 242.

The PLO are definitely being made irrelevant by Saudi intervention.  Jordan tried to negotiate for the Palestinians and failed but no doubt the Saudis have more clout.  Wonder what the hidden issue is for the Saudis?  Is it embarassing for them to have to admit that terrorists find their country a good spawning ground?  They have had decades to come up with this, in fact decades to be a real player in a settlement but have been satisfied to nurture their little brother's cause but not it's solution. Maybe they see Palestine more as a liability if it continues to fester and lead to widespread conflict.  The PLO will never negotiate a settlement, they are too corrupt.

Funny you should ask that question Jarhead_22!

[b]FRESH OFF THE PRESS[/b]

The Syrian-backed Lebanese government is cracking down on drug production.  This will give the Lebanese President Rafiq Hariri a political lever against his opponents and will help Syria appease Washington by exerting control over miltant Hezbollah factions.

DaMan

PS - Sorry can't link you to that particular article. For subscribers only.  

So when you play poker and raise the ante, are you trying to derail the poker game or simply calling the other players bluff?

I'd think Israel wants to be sure the Saudis are dealing in good faith before investing too much in the proposal.

The Israeli tank would never run over him. Unless, of course, the tank was already rumbling down the road and the Palestinian managed to rush out in front of it and assume his peaceful sitting position before the tank was able to get stopped. I wouldn't put this past the Palestinians, although their "martyr" would likely have a hundred pounds of explosives strapped to him/her, too.

Well, isn't that special?

Gee, how strange that no one has taken up the subject of that photo from the AP I posted on the first page.

You know, the one where the AP identified the guy on the left as a non-combatant!

C'mon you guys, you're not being very fun today!

What's happened? A 'cat' got your tongue?

Eric The(AsIn'Caterpillar')Hun[>]:)]

Actually, Eric, I was just watching the evening news.  I was amazed at how accurate my predictions were about "Sharon's shrewd maneuver to derail the Saudi peace plan" and how it would play in Israel and around the World.  Doesn't look good for Sharon!  

His continued attacks on Palastinian refugee camps are making him look even worse in the PR arena!

Even high ups in the IDF are calling Sharon's policies "failures" and blame him for trying to derail peace!

Like I said before.  Stick a fork in Sharon.....he's done! [:P]

DaMan

PS - Oh, you wanted to tell us something about a photo you posted.  Please do!  I bet it's really clever! [:P]

Sharon may be done, but what will everyone say if there is a peace treaty signed and the Palestinians get most of what they want and [i]still[/i] terrorize Isreal? You know that's what would happen.
The Palestinians aren't interested in a Palestine with Isreal and Sharon isn't interested in an Isreal that's vulnerable to attack. Who sounds reasonable?

Post from DaMan -

Now [u]that[/u] I find hard to believe!

I'm sure you're the first person anyone should ask to see how Sharon is doing! Yeah, right!

The 'dancing, prancing' Palestinians never worry about PR problems (obviously) why should Sharon? Trust me, he doesn't.

He'll be done when the Israeli people say he's done, not the New York Times, not CNN, not some little 'fork' on the other side of the world!

Eric The(Respectful)Hun[>]:)]

Boomer,
excellent post !

You were both able to ask and answer your own question.

"The Israeli tank would never run over him."

Never.

Interesting word 'never'.

If only I could watch you put this word to the test.

E.T. Hun,
in reading the article again I must confess that I missed a large point in the first paragraph.

Plainly there 'MUST' be direct contact at some point for the Arab peace initiative to have any chance of succeding.

Here is must agree with Mr. Sharon.

You sure like that image of Palestinian "Billy Bobs" dancing in the streets! [:P] No. They don't need to worry about world opinion.  A leader of a country does!

Yep, he'll be done when the Israeli people say he's done...... and they're starting to say just that!

Stick a fork in him.  He's done!  Tastes like pork! [:P]

DaMan  

Post from DaMan -

Eeeewww! You ate him? How sick are you?

Is that the first time you eaten Jewish? No, don't answer, I don't think it's any of our business!

Eric The(NotThatThere'sAnythingWrong...)Hun[>]:)]

Post from DaMan -

I [u]love[/u] that image of those idiots dancing in the streets. Why? Because it shows the entire world, with some notable exceptions (you, Bub!) just how bankrupt their society has become.

When a family's number one desire is to have one of its sons become a permanent grease spot on a blacktop in Judea or Samaria, or at some corner pizza joint, you've got to admit that the society is pretty GD sicko!

Now, it appears they may be sending their unmarried and divorced daughters out to do the same thing!

What a civilization! What panache! What style! What idiots!

But they're [u]your[/u] idiots, right? Are you proud of them?

Eric The(HehHeh)Hun[>]:)]

Isreal attacked another refugee camp today:
[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&u=/ap/20020301/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians[/url]

And they also have apparently had some luck and bagged a senior Hamas man:
[url]http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=136262&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0[/url]

The Saudi plan is ludicrous. The 1973 War PROVED that Isreal cannot do without the West Bank and Golan.  Why ANY Israeli is even interested in such a deal is beyond me.

Israel has had to deal with this crap far to long. They should wipe all the crazy ass nuts out overthere and solve their problem. We don't take that shit in our country why should Israel!!

Gotta agree with Sharon, if ya got a problem with someone, you meet face to face. What better way to "bury the hatchet"[}:D]. Seems to me, having go-betweens is one definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. But, never fear, there WILL be peace....Temporarily. On your photo Eric? They'd be toast....

But, illinois when you try to wipe out a people.....that's called "[b]GENOCIDE[/b]!  Are you advocating genocide of the Palestinians?

Eric, Israel doesn't control world opinion!

Your boy, Sharon is either gone... or he'll be brought to heal!

CIA Director, George Tenet, is in Saudi.  Remember .... he's the one who threatened to resign, if Clinton released the Israeli spy, Jonathon Pollard!  [:P]

DaMan  

Post from liberty86 -

I believe you, Brother!

Eric The(WhoKnowsMaybeOneDayWe'llBothBeInAnArmyOnJordan'sStormyBanks)Hun[>]:)]

Post from DaMan -

The only folks I know advocating GENOCIDE in the area are your friends, DaMan, the dancing, prancing, ululating Palestinians! They would love to eat Sharon's flesh, too!

Heal? Heal what?

And if Sharon's gone, then he will be replaced by someone else who I will support just as much!

With all the good the CIA did in discovering and preventing the tragedy of Sept 11, maybe it would have been good for our nation if Clinton [u]had[/u] forced Tenant's resignation!

I mean even you could do as well as he has!

And that's saying a lot![:D]

Any special reason you like to keep failures around?

Eric The(Special)Hun[>]:)]