Posted: 3/28/2012 9:11:58 AM EDT
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Friend's son is married to a Japanese woman. They live in Chicago. The woman's sister wanted to come to the U.S. for a year to take some classes and learn and practice English. The sister lives with my friend as a house guest. She is about 30 and has an advanced college degree from a university in Japan. Yesterday I was talkng to her and she said someone had "jet rag". She usually uses the correct words but frequently has trouble with pronunciation. I was going to correct her pronunciation but on second thought was not sure if it would be a problem. So I kept quiet and later asked my friend if her guest was able to pronunce the letter 'L' or not. She said that she could pronunce 'L' but the problem was that she can't tell the difference in the way "R" and 'L" sounds and frequently interchanges them.
Should I help her with pronunciation when we are talking or not? If her goal is to learn English then it is not helping her to continue to mispronounce words. |
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Do it, just don't be a dick about it. Being educated, she can probably appreciate being corrected so as not to be unintentionally hilarious. No. I certainly would not be a dick about it. That would just be rude. I would like to stay friends with my friend. If I were the one in a forign country trying to learn their language I would want to be corrected on pronunciation as often as it took to get it right. |
| There is no "L" in the Japanese language. The 'R' sound isn't quite like ours either; it's more of a merger of R and L. Sort of a soft R. Just like how I can't tell the difference between Chartreuse and Olive because I haven't had much exposure to it, a Japanese person who has spent their childhood dealing with ra/ro/ri/ru/re is going to have a harder time picking up the difference between Ramp and Lamp. |
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The R/L is nearly impossible for many to fix without concerted effort, and some still never get it. But if you think they sound funny pronouncing a few of our characters, try the reverse! Exactly. Compare how you pronounce Tokyo with how she says it. In English, it's 3 syllables: To-Key-Yo. In Japanese, it's 2 on: To-Kyo. |
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The R/L is nearly impossible for many to fix without concerted effort, and some still never get it. But if you think they sound funny pronouncing a few of our characters, try the reverse! Exactly. Compare how you pronounce Tokyo with how she says it. In English, it's 3 syllables: To-Key-Yo. In Japanese, it's 2 on: To-Kyo. Then I am probably saying her name incorrectly. It sounds a lot like Tokyo but starts with a K. |
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Think of it as an accent. Pics of ronery sister? Go to yesterday's thread with the vid of the marching Chinese woman soldiers. She looks like all of them. I shot the Cherry Blossom Gala in D.C. this weekend. Chatted with a couple of the brossoms. 
One was an au pair not far from my AO. Big brown eyes and long dark hair, very rovery. |
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My parents had an exchange student from Japan stay with them. My dad took the approach of speaking like Tonto and extra loud since she only spoke moderate English. My sister who's an ESL teacher had to sit there and endure that. 
I'm amazed at the number of people who seem to think that the easiest way to help someone learn English is to not speak proper English.
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The R/L is nearly impossible for many to fix without concerted effort, and some still never get it. But if you think they sound funny pronouncing a few of our characters, try the reverse! Exactly. Compare how you pronounce Tokyo with how she says it. In English, it's 3 syllables: To-Key-Yo. In Japanese, it's 2 on: To-Kyo. Then I am probably saying her name incorrectly. It sounds a lot like Tokyo but starts with a K. Chances are if you're stressing any syllable in a Japanese word you're saying it wrong! Our English inflection instincts don't map well to a rather flat language. |
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I work with a buncha Nihonjin. All of them have been here for years. All of them have the R-L transliteration thing. i wouldn't put to much emPHAsis on it, it's pretty hard-coded. Also: impress your friends son. Tell your friend to recommend Mitsuwa to them. Hai wakarimasu(Wa ka di mas) |
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OP, this is the best way someone explained to me when I was learning english.
To asians the word HOLIDAY would be pronounced would be HO LI DAY since there is only one 'L' and everything must be separated into syllables. This is why it sounds like HORIDAY to english speakers. Eventhough, there is only one 'L' in HOLIDAY, you practice sounding out two 'L's HOL LI DAY When you break the word down to syllables. As far as JET RAG, not sure how to rectify that. |
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Here’s your serious answer:
The Japanese equivalent is somewhere in between an R and an L sound, with leanings toward the L. If you’re wanting to help her, perhaps some coaching on the oral form (how you position your mouth/tongue) for the distinct sounds would be a good idea. I’m fluent in Japanese (I speek english gud to) so if you by chance have any questions I’d be happy to answer, just shoot me a message or something. |
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She said that she could pronunce 'L' but the problem was that she can't tell the difference in the way "R" and 'L" sounds and frequently interchanges them. Give her some tips on where her tongue is supposed to be. It's not that hard. That's what she said. |
Sorry, lost it at the first response.
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Ask her or someone from Mexico to say .... "Murdered Turtle" You will die laughing.
In Thailand someone used the R-L mispronounciation to a marketing advantage. My wife has a pair of jeans with the name 'REE" on the back of them. Thai's pronounce it "LEE" but there is no copyright infringment 
Thai's also have lots of trouble with "TH" sounds usually saying "dis and dat" rather than This and That. |
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Friend's son is married to a Japanese woman. They live in Chicago. The woman's sister wanted to come to the U.S. for a year to take some classes and learn and practice English. The sister lives with my friend as a house guest. She is about 30 and has an advanced college degree from a university in Japan. Yesterday I was talkng to her and she said someone had "jet rag". She usually uses the correct words but frequently has trouble with pronunciation. I was going to correct her pronunciation but on second thought was not sure if it would be a problem. So I kept quiet and later asked my friend if her guest was able to pronunce the letter 'L' or not. She said that she could pronunce 'L' but the problem was that she can't tell the difference in the way "R" and 'L" sounds and frequently interchanges them. Should I help her with pronunciation when we are talking or not? If her goal is to learn English then it is not helping her to continue to mispronounce words. I took Japanese and Korean in collage R and L is kind of combined in both languages. I taught English in Korea for a year. The ability to speak the L correctly in English depends up on the accent they grew up with. People from Seoul do not have as much trouble with the L sound, Koreans from Pusan have a very hard time. I’ve notice the same thing with Japanese some have very little trouble some have a lot. If she wants to learn English correct her quietly so only she can hear. |
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She said that she could pronunce 'L' but the problem was that she can't tell the difference in the way "R" and 'L" sounds and frequently interchanges them. Give her some tips on where her tongue is supposed to be. It's not that hard. That's what so perplexing about the problem - There is nothing even remotely similar in either the tongue or teeth positions. Making the "R" sound requires a completely different face from making the "L" sound. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: She said that she could pronunce 'L' but the problem was that she can't tell the difference in the way "R" and 'L" sounds and frequently interchanges them. Give her some tips on where her tongue is supposed to be. It's not that hard. That's what so perplexing about the problem - There is nothing even remotely similar in either the tongue or teeth positions. Making the "R" sound requires a completely different face from making the "L" sound. Which leads into our next question, which might require field experimentation - is it hard to teach an Asian with advanced degrees how to give proper head? |
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She said that she could pronunce 'L' but the problem was that she can't tell the difference in the way "R" and 'L" sounds and frequently interchanges them. Give her some tips on where her tongue is supposed to be. It's not that hard. That's what so perplexing about the problem - There is nothing even remotely similar in either the tongue or teeth positions. Making the "R" sound requires a completely different face from making the "L" sound. Your thinking of the mechanics of how we form our sounds. A non-native or non-fluent speaker is actively "converting" to what they know in their native language. They don't have an L sound like ours - they have no learned mechanics for making it. They do have one very similar, but it also has an R quality to it as well... so when they hear English L, they think modified Japanese R, but often get the wrong R stress. Another more subtle situation can occur with G and K for similar reasons. gyo/kyo type sounds. Its more about mental mappings than auditory mechanics. |
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Ask her or someone from Mexico to say .... "Murdered Turtle" You will die laughing. What happens? A bunch of extra 'ed'? It sounds kinda like they are stuttering edededededed ...then they get really frustrated and try harder
And of course me learing to speak Thai Ive had my moments. I once told a bunch of guys that didnt speak english Alaska was cold and had lots of 'horse vaginas' instead of has a lot of snow ..... Said "hee maaahhh" instead of 'Hee Ma" There was a moment of silence then they all busted out laughing. I felt really stupid but we all had a good laugh. |
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She said that she could pronunce 'L' but the problem was that she can't tell the difference in the way "R" and 'L" sounds and frequently interchanges them. Give her some tips on where her tongue is supposed to be. It's not that hard. That's what so perplexing about the problem - There is nothing even remotely similar in either the tongue or teeth positions. Making the "R" sound requires a completely different face from making the "L" sound. The ears are the problem. Hearing sound is a result of vibration of ear drum being converted into an electrical impulse and interpreted by the language cortex of the brain. As a baby/child develops there are certain neurons that get stimulated repeatedly and are kept in place. Unused connections wither and fade and are less relied upon. The connections may be kept on the back burner for later use but it's not back to full potential when called upon. Infants brains are pretty elastic but as they develop that elasticity drops. Language places a bias on the use of certain of neuronal pathways. After learning a language there is a defined pathway and after a certain point unused pathways are kind of given up on. The Japanese language doesn't form the pathways to provide differentiation of the "R" and "L" sound found in the English language. Those sounds just aren't as apparent or necessary in the Japanese language the way they are in the English language. As a result, the ears may perceive the vibration in the air waves from the spoken language but the brain doesn't know how to interpret that specific vibration as an electrical impulse and just what that impulse means. This causes the language cortex to double up some interpretations. Think of it as something similar to the way some people interchange the use of "their", "they're", and "there". They all mean different things to others but maybe to that person they're equivalent. This same thing can happen with a child's vision, and it's been demonstrated in the lab with various animals. If you were to blindfold an infant their eyes won't form the correct pathways to the brain as they learn to see. After they've surpassed the super elasticity available during the learning point you could remove the blindfold and the infant will be effectively be blind. There will still be some adaptation since children are elastic but they won't get to full potential. This phenomenon is also very common in young children with hearing impairments that get surgeries at a young age and gain some ability to hear. They can pick up on some stuff but other stuff is just lost to them and they can't even hear themselves when they're not pronouncing a word properly. To them it sounds just like everyone else says it since their ears can't detect the nuances. Young children exposed to both Japanese and English don't have the pronunciation problem because their brains are elastic enough to form the differentiation pathways. An adult Japanese person with English as their second language will have the differentiation problem but can adapt to some degree. The adaption however doesn't necessarily rely on the use of the area of the brain that hears the sound. Instead the person's memory and interpretative skills are able called upon to help separate a "L" from a "R" sound based on the context of the sentence spoken to them. After that they can apply that to the motions their mouth makes when speaking but that requires self discipline on the speakers part. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: She said that she could pronunce 'L' but the problem was that she can't tell the difference in the way "R" and 'L" sounds and frequently interchanges them. Give her some tips on where her tongue is supposed to be. It's not that hard. That's what so perplexing about the problem - There is nothing even remotely similar in either the tongue or teeth positions. Making the "R" sound requires a completely different face from making the "L" sound. Which leads into our next question, which might require field experimentation - is it hard to teach an Asian with advanced degrees how to give proper head? Having dated a Japanese woman with degrees in both biochemistry and patent law, I can definitively say it is not.  |
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Ask her or someone from Mexico to say .... "Murdered Turtle" You will die laughing. What happens? A bunch of extra 'ed'? It sounds kinda like they are stuttering edededededed ...then they get really frustrated and try harder
And of course me learing to speak Thai Ive had my moments. I once told a bunch of guys that didnt speak english Alaska was cold and had lots of 'horse vaginas' instead of has a lot of snow ..... Said "hee maaahhh" instead of 'Hee Ma" There was a moment of silence then they all busted out laughing. I felt really stupid but we all had a good laugh. I'm not sure I want to go to Thailand if they need such a short word for 'horse vagina'. 
My high school spanish teacher was a missionary's daughter. She grew up in Brazil and Mexico, but didn't really speak the language too well because she never needed to, at least until her friends and family basically stopped speaking English to her to force her to learn. There were.. hiccups along the way. While sitting in church, the pastor said something which embarrassed her. When she told her friends and parents about it later, she didn't know the Spanish word for 'embarrass', so she took a gamble with the adjective 'embarazada'. Which means 'impregnate'. |
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No one's posted this yet? Really? You guys are slipping... Yu son of peach, i was going to post that. 
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Quoted: Ooooooh, Toshi. Quoted: No one's posted this yet? Really? You guys are slipping... Yu son of peach, i was going to post that.  |