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Me too, and many others. That is why this judge's decision is so awful. That is why she needs prayers. If you read the complete website more of the case is revealed. But not enough to warrent withdrawl of food or medical care. Joyce |
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Joyce thank you for updating me on who things are progressing. I can feel compassion for both sides but my heart really goes out to the parents. To think how easy it would be to give up! God Bless them and may he have mercy on her husband.
Pattymcn |
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+1 I don't get it. |
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well if it was me and this was the quality of life i wouldn't fight the feeding tube. i know i sound like a monster but i worked as a paramedic for 12 years and i'm a nurse now and if i couldn't function close to normal what type of life is that. i'm not a hold out for miricals exspecilly after all the tests and doctors. then again i wouldn't want to be a lab experement for every procedure holding onto false hope that this one may work. most of the familys i have delt with majority of them never visit or enquire unless something costs money to the family. had one son go as far as mother needing surgery for a hip replacement due to being on hospice is she was going to die anyways why waste the money and she was on hospice due to alzheimers.
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Edited by request....Only out of respect for someone here.... My sister in law needs to be fed too. But she lives a happy life with trips and communication, and everything else fairly normal. So sad some of you would let her go....She is capable of so much love and gives it. Many here could learn from her. When asked by her mother to Terri if she wanted to die,...she said "no". I hope those of you who are "for" this consider what would happen to your child if they need a feeding tube based on the precedent of this case. |
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It's one of those situations that man alone can not answer. What is best for this woman. I can sympathise with her parents desire to keep trying. They believe IF things were done she would progress - They should be allowed to TRY at least. But I can also understand her husbands desire to stop seeing her in the state she's in. Who knows maybe they did talk about What if. Regardless the only ones who have won is the lawyers. What a horrible way to make a living!
Pattymcn |
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Her husband has the option of divorce. Her parents have offered to take over all care.
Divorce is a much better option than murder. They have also had a court ordered medical eval. They have evidence that things would progress if given the chance. Her husband wants the money. there is no other reason. He has already abused her and beat up several family members including one sister. If he truly cared about his wife, he would give her a chance at the least. Can you imagine not giving the one you love a chance when the odds are good? I am guessing not,... because you care. This isn't someone who can't talk or needs O-2 or tubes a breathing machine. She isn't in a coma, she has active brain waves. No heart trouble,no kidney failure, nothing that warrents life support... Really friggin sad.... Maybe we should kill off the cancer patients who have lost their stomachs to cancer and use a feeding tube too? Or ones who have a colostomy bag to poop in instead of using a toilet like us. Patty, I am not angry with you by any means. I am very angry with ones who think this should be done based on 'life qualtiy' issues. Ask her if she wants to die. Her folks did. She said no! |
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Joyce I agree completely with you and I hope I do not sound as if I am waffling in my postion. I am not. I think the husband without a doubt should have allowed the parents to try. The time and energy wasted fighting surely could have been spent else where much more productive.
I can sympathise with the husband saying he has a right to closure but I didn't realize her abilites were as high as you described. Pattymcn |
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My sister Carol is mental retarded, has been since birth.
She barely talks, but she does smile every time she sees me. If anyone tries to kill her they are going to have to go thru me first, and I doubt they will win. Sgatr15 |
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Growing up I had a neighbor who had severe brain damage and the mental capacity of perhaps a 6 month old. His name is Jonathan. He is the most loving and happy person I have ever had to fortune to meet. Think about all the wonder that is in a 6 month old's eyes. They have the ability to recognize and respond to love as well as give it back unconditionally. When I think about this case, I think about my neighbor. If anyone from the courts were able to spend time with Terri (or Jonathan), they would know that a human lies within.
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Think about it this way: What if your sister was normal at one time. And while she was normal, and of sound mind, she stated that if anythingever happened, She did not want life support. She did not want a feeding tube. etc. You give her your word you will honor her request. Would you do what she asked? Regardless of what you feel, you gave your word. |
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My word is my bond. If the situations she described were now the conditions she was in, i would uphold my word. I don't know what this huband and wife agreed to. Nobody probably ever will. |
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This is a vey touchy subject........
P.S. Isn't she getting better? |
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I would never make that promise to anyone. Sgatr15 |
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Fair enough. |
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Wait a second! You mean she's talking. Concious and alert. Aware of her surroundings? WTF? If she's doing all that why the hell is there even a question about it? Hell, I thought we were talking about someone in a coma. Didn't realize we were talking about an ACTIVE person. (Guess I should actually read the story. ) However, if this is the case, there's just no question at all for me. Not feeding her is the same as murder then. Couldn't even stretch my imagination to call it Euthenasia. For crying out loud, you have to feed babies. Does that mean we have the right to let them die because we don't want to feed them anymore? Jiminy Crickets! What a douchbag! Maybe we should stop the husband from eating too then. Sounds just as fair don't it? ETA: Ok, I've read enough to see that not even doctors can agree. Which tells me there's at least something there. If she were truely a vegetable, not one damn doctor in the world would be arguing about it. |
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From the website mentioned above:
She communicates, but not neccessarily verbally or at a normal adult level. She needs rehab, which her dearest husband stopped 10 years ago. He has a new family now, so he doesn't need her. |
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I've been away for a couple of days, but as of this morning, you could reach the FL. Governor's office at 1-850-488-2272 if you wanted to bend Jeb's ear about the situation.
Yes, the number works. (I was surprised) |
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I've followed this story off and on for a while and I still don't understand why she needs a feeding tube. If this was a relative of mine I would at least try feeding her some baby type food.
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+1 |
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Thank you!! I know many who will call tomorrow first thing! She can not eat baby food or other things just yet. There is a possibility down the road that she can. Her esophagus will not handle the contractions needed to get it into her stomach[rehab may take care of this.]. The new development for those of you who can not access the website,...is that they are fighting for speech therapy. She has already learned small words, ..."yeh and no" . She can progress the drs have said,[ but given ther fact that her husband has power of attorney,] he will not allow it. Obvioulsy if Terri's ruling has come this far thru prayers and re-consideration by the judge...more can happen if we keep at it. Please, if you feel it is worthy, do so. Joyce |
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I certainly don't want to get into a fight (especially not in the women's forum), but the websites and organizations that are trying to "save" here are just plain INCORRECT (I don't want to say "lying" but personally, I think that is what they are doing). It's unfortunate, because their hearts are obviously in the right place, but to imply that she is COGNITIVE is complete BS. Her brain was destroyed, and she has NO cognitive responses - there is NO higher brain function in her at all. Terri Schiavo died many years ago, and what is left is nothing but meat and bones. To say stuff like the website does "She laughs, speaks a bit, and cries" are COMPLETE FABRICATIONS. She may have random movements, but to imply that she has cognitive activity is nothing byt he desperate denial of her parents. There have been several HEAVILY EDITED video clips that are meant to show her moving around, etc - but the medical evidence is clear and unambiguous. Multiple judges would NEVER have ruled that it was okay to kill "her" unless there was overwhelming evidence that she IS in fact comepltely brain dead. This case has nothing to do with killing a human over "quality of life" or eugenics or anything like that. She IS in a persistent vegetative state - and the fact that some people desperately don't WANT to believe that, doesn't change the reality of it. That said, I don't understand why it's a big deal. If the poor parents are willing to take care of her, why not let them? If the husband thinks he is carrying out here "wishes" to not be like that, he can stop worrying, because his wife died 15 years ago when he brain was killed. Apologies if I have offended anyone. IM me if I have and I'll edit or delete my post. |
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I heard the other side of the story too DK, and I'm convinced that she is in a permanent vegetative state.
If it was me (thankfully it isn't) I'd want to give it up, no matter what Dr's. and other say I've said in my severly diminished capacity, I don't believe she has spoken a word since the accident. If it were my wife, I'd pull the plug as she has requested. This would be a gret time for folks who haven't done so to go ahead with a living will. The worst part about this is that it has gone on so long. Call me what you want, I dont care, I'm really not a bad guy. |
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ah the heck with it...I have nothing better to do...so I will ramble about my response
I have been hearing about this for years...but never heard this other side about her responding to anything...will have to look into this more But I am really curious because I have known far too many people told their child is brain dead...and there is no gray...it is black or white..and childrens brains do recover from far more tramatic injuries then adults... I do believe in discontecting life support...but a feeding tube seems really cruel and painful way to die But if someone is willing to take on the care of this woman...then so be it.....I dont think the husband should fight the parents...which of course makes me wonder if there is a different reason behind this...if he divorced her (like the future king of englan) he might have some remarriage issues in certain churches....if this is all purely personal to the husband... |
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I'm sure there are 3 sides to this story, the parents' side, the husband's side, and the truth. The parents' motives can be dismissed as unfounded hope based on their love for their daughter, but what about the husband's supposed motive? He claims to be doing this in order to fulfill a promise he made to his wife at least 14 years ago, but apparently the other promises he made to her (like "'til death do us part", "foresaking all others", etc.) meant little to this man, so why should we believe that, after 14+ years, this man has suddenly decided to keep this promise and no other out of pure love for his wife? Sorry, folks, I'd rather err on the side of love and hope. Like has been pointed out allready, if his motives are genuine, why not just divorce her and let the parents care for her like they have been trying to do all along? Why is his promise all of a sudden so important after all these years?
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The meidcal definition of persistant vegatative state has not been met in this case.
Here is the medical and legal definition.... " A persistent vegetative state (commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death") sometimes follows a coma. Individuals in such a state have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands." This woman is aware of her surroundings and family visitations, She SPEAKS and is ABLE to responds to SOME commands. Not many words, not many commands, but the progress she has made has been outstanding. IF this woman is sentenced to death, the precedent set in the court system will be there for you, for me , and for our children. This case will be cited as means for anyone to step up and have this carried out. All in the name of a feeding tube. She DOES NOT qualify for the medical defintion of a "persistent vegetative state" Terri is utmost concern in this case, but later,.....we all will be. I find it so appalling that some of you say..."If so many drs and judges have approved this it must be good and correct". When you know damn well if they approved gun abolishment or some other issue you consider near and dear, You would not care HOW MANY decided it was right. You would fight. So I find that argument pathetic. Would you say the same if it was your child that smiled when you walked into the room,and laughed when you tickled her, and cried when you left? I sure hope not..... Think about that.... |
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Before anyone gets so fast to say yank her feeding tube, get ahold of this book, "Nor Meekly Serve My Time". It is about the hunger strikers in Ireland in the late 70's to early 80's. Granted, they chose to go on a hunger strike, but that is a horrible way to die, extremely painfull!!! Her husband sued and was given 1.5 million dollars in order to take care of her and re-habilitate her. As soon as he gets the money he dumps her in a hospice then takes up with another woman. Seems to me he just wants his money, and maybe is scared she will be able to talk and drop a dime on him for poisoning her. |
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If the brain was truly dead, there would be no response. I would like to see your proof of "heavily edited video". I would also like to see your medical proof of "brain dead" and persistant vegatative state". As you see defined in my post above, she is not in this state as a medical defintion would have it. It isn't a matter of whether I want to believe it or not, there is no evidence to support it based on what you mentioned. If there is,..show me. And I don't want biased sites that her husband or the media has put out. I want MEDICAL evidence. Then we can talk....If she was completely brain dead as you say,...her normal body functions would cease to exsist including heart, lungs and essential organs. Again I say,.... If these judges were presenting a gun abolishment issue for the US and had in their possesion, evidence of why they should be banned, I would imagine you would find evidence against it and fight it. If you don't want to pursue these options on Terri's case, so be it, but I hope you realize the precedent it will set for future cases. And I hope you realize....Just because people say it is so,...Don't mean a damn thing! Find the evidence, weigh it for yourself as I am willing to do, should you produce it. At this point all evidence I have seen in the medical field and neurology field points otherwise. Joyce |
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What really gets me is that stray dogs and cats are euthanized and put to death very fast. Why don't they just starve them to death then, would be cheaper? Why does her husband want to her die so bad? Her folks offered to take over care of her, so why should he care? I know if my wife were in the same state as Terri I would be doing everything I could to get her as well as possible, I can not even beging to imagine allowing my wife to starve to death.
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For those who say, "but a judge said.... so it must be true", please remember that this is taking place in Florida. No offence to any Floridians among us, but Florida judges don't exactly have a stellar track record.
Again, I have 2 main questions for the husband: 1) Why now? He's had what 14 years to honor his alleged promise to his wife, but it apparently wasn't all that important to him, even after he stopped the rehab and dumped her in hospice to start a new family, so what changed? 2) Why this promise? He doesn't seem to feel particularly bound by the other promises he made to his wife, so why is this one different? Am I really expected to believe that he has suddenly become noble? While his wife (whom he claims to care about) was lying in a hospital bed, he started a new family. I've heard of folks remarrying before their spouse's body was even cold, but this man couldn't even wait for her heart to stop beating. Sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe I'm a cynic. |
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Well it looks like no matter what everyone who has posted in this thread thinks about her actual mental condition, the consensus is that care should be given back to her parents.
Although I do have advance directives asking not to keep me on life support should something terrible happen to me, I have a hard time thinking of a feeding tube as "life support" per se. It would be one thing if she weren't able to breathe on her own, but heck, lots of people have feeding tubes. Some of them are running around and otherwise fairly healthy. My friend's nephew was a preemie and had a feeding tube for several years, but is a happy little kid now. This might be a radically different sort of case from the woman in Florida, but somewhat summarizes my feelings on the life support issue. I'd hope that Gloftoe wouldn't stop feeding me if I were otherwise able to stay alive on my own. |
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I am certainly not an expert on this, nor do I have a medical degree, nor have I ever seen the person in question. However, I do know from what I have seen and read about it, that every UNBIASED medical professional that has examined her has concluded that her brain is completely kaput. She has no higher cognitive functions at all. The "human" part of her is gone. Without sounding offensive and insulting (I hope), I really and honestly believe that the so-called "evidence" of her speaking and responding to commands, etc - is completely fabricated by her desperate parents (and paid medical "professionals") As far as I know, ALL the independent doctors that have examined her have concluded that her brain is severely and permanently damaged, and that she cannot recover. She is in a persistent vegetative state - whether her parents WANT to believe it or not. Obviously, she still has brain function, since lower functions govern all kind of autonomic systems in the body, and those things are still working. Like a computer with a fried CPU, it might still power up, and lights might flicker, but that doesn't mean you can run applications on it.
Again, I hope I am not insulting or offending you, but I think that is a very faulty analogy. Mercy killings are ILLEGAL in the United States, and that is why Kevorkian is in prison, even when he only helped terminally ill patients to die. Murder is ILLEGAL in the U.S. I don't think the fact that judges are willing to okay gun legislation that we perceive to be a violation of the Consitution to imply that they would willingly abandon a principle that there is COMPLETE AGREEMENT on in the United States. The only reason some judges approve gun control, and other deny it, and it works it way tortorously through the system, is precisely because there is disagreement and varying interpretations of what the Consitution and law says. The reason judges and doctors are willing to say "it's okay to pull the feeding tube" is that there is no disagreement or ambiguity in this case. Everyone AGREES that it is NOT okay to kill people. But all the experts also agree that she is in a persistent vegetative state. The fact that he parents WILL NOT, or CANNOT accept that is tragic, but doesn't change reality. To suggest that there is something sinister and underhanded going on, implies a vast conspiracy among judges and doctors, that would have the eventual goal of opening the door to bizarre eugenics practices - and I find THAT premise completely and wholly unconvincing. Terry Schiavo is dead. I'm sure she is sitting in heaven and having her heart torn out over the agony her parents are going through over her empty shell that is still on earth. While I disagree with you over what it means to let the body die, I COMPLETELY agree with you that there is no reason whatsoever that it should happen in this case. Regardless of her circumstance, her parents are willing to take care of the hunk of meat that used to be their daughter - and I really don't understand why the husband will not allow it - not for Terri Schiavo, but for her parents sake. Perhaps he is an asshole with an ulterior motive, or perhaps he honestly feels like he is doing what his wife woudl have wanted. I don't know, but I feel horribly for her parents - because they must be suffering terribly. I am probably just repeating myself at this point, and don't want to unecessarily rile people up. Like I said, I HONESTLY believe that much of the passion surrounding this case arises from misinformation spread by her desperate parents, and other well-intentioned people with an agenda around this issue. |
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I lived in that area for about 10 years and hardly a day went by without hearing about this case. This is the first I've ever heard any claims of her responding to outside stimuli. It's not something new that her husband is just now trying to do. It's been ongoing for years. A few years ago all the doc's and judges agreed (from the medical opinions) that there was no chance of improvement. At the last minute Jeb stepped in and halted it.
However, none of us here are directly involved with this case to derive at an informed conclusion. Only a small portion of the brain (the Medulla) is responsible for respiratory effort. The heart beats on its own without CNS intervention. I do, however, agree that starving her to induce her death is not a pleasant thought. Quite frankly I can't believe she has survived this long. |
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Another twist is that her "husband" wants her cremated ASAP!!!!
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www.crisismagazine.com/january2004/johansen.htm
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Not going to argue this....Not offended for another expressing their opinion. But I felt compelled to offer, to those interested, medical comments from other drs besides the ones for the husband...
BTW- Now the husband wants immediate creamation with no autopsy.... This particular dr was not paid nor hired by Terri's family.... read full article here
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Thanks. Like I said - I agree 100% with you that the parents should be allowed to take care of her, and the husband SHOULD allow them to do so. In this case, the technicalities of her brain activity seem almost irrelevant. |
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I respect you opinion. But I believe you to be wrong. |
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Michael Schiavo said his wife never wanted to be kept alive artificially, but she left no written directive. He says he's fulfilling a promise he made to her, and he has spent most of a $700,000 medical malpractice award given to his wife for her care to pay his attorney.
Her parents, with financial backing from the California-based Life Legal Defense Foundation, have vowed to keep litigating the case to keep Terri alive. They dismiss arguments that she is in vegetative state, believing she could get better with therapy, that she laughs, responds to them and tries to talk. http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4828022,00.html By MITCH STACY Associated Press Writer It seems there was only $700,000 involved so perhaps money isn't as big of an issue as I and many others are under the impression. |
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Val,
I wasn't trying to offend you, or anyone who disagrees with my opinion. I was just stating I believe them to be wrong, just as they probably believe me to be wrong. I am OK with that! LOL I don't think there is a money issue, other than the life ins the husband would get is she dies. What I can't understand is this.... If I were in her position, and my husbnad was honoring my wishes, and it wasn't against any religious objectives [he has stated as much], I would want an autopsy. I would want to know why all this happened so it may help someone else. Being that they don't know for sure, I would want someone to know. I believe if someone is truly committed to their mate, they would want to know what went wrong as well. In my humble opinion, he is covering for something, be it abuse, lack or proper care or what. I hope this is resolved soon and they give her to her parents. At least they are willing to carry out PT for her. respect, Joyce |
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I really find it difficult to believe that this woman will ever be any different than she is now. I think what the parents are seeing is merely reflexes, etc. but they want to believe so badly that these are responses they will not accept any other explanation. However, I do not see why the husband is so adament in going against the parents' wishes.
This is what is in the news today about this: TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - Terri Schiavo's parents asked a judge Monday to allow the severely brain-damaged woman to divorce her husband, accusing him of adultery and not acting in his wife's best interests. It was one of a flurry of 15 motions filed by Bob and Mary Schindler, who have less than three weeks to find a way to keep their daughter alive. Michael Schiavo says his wife, who has spent 15 years in what doctors call a vegetative state, once told him she would never want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents have fought his efforts but Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer ruled that Schiavo can have her feeding tube removed on March 18. The Schindlers' attorney, David Gibbs, said Greer had indicated he will not hear the divorce request and five of the other motions filed Monday, but that only means that the matters are now on their way to being appealed. Other motions by the Schindlers ask that some news reporters be allowed to see Terri Schiavo's interactions with her parents, since they contend she responds to them; that they be allowed to take pictures with her before she dies and that those photographs not become Michael Schiavo's property, as a current court order now requires; that she be allowed to die at home; and that they be allowed to bury her rather than the cremation her husband has planned. But I have to post the link to a story I had followed in VA. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=321110 |
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No. I didn't take offense. i just wanted to point out that I made my post a little more well rounded.
I do think that it is strange that her husband would rather her die at the hospital than at home. Perhaps there are reasons though- the parents would put the feeding tube back in? or would exploit the situation? maybe she can receive medication that will help her be comfortable at a hospital. If the court decides that they cannot do this they probably have some reason. However, at this point would an autopsy even prove anything? I havn't heard any arguements about it being a point of contention. As far as I know they no exactly the reason this happened- she had an eating disorder most likely anorexdia and it caused a chemical in her brain to shut off and thus her heart stopped. Before it could be restarted enough time lapsed that her brain was deprived of oxygen and it was no longer functioning. How could an autopsy be helpful? It wouldn't show any 'foul play' or specific accident details... It all comes down to her wishes. Perhaps she expressed a desire to be cremated, or it is for religious reasons. Do we really know? I still lean toward the husband's side of things. I feel that a married couple has the right to make decisions for each other, in each others best interests. |
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