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Posted: 2/21/2005 6:19:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2005 6:20:23 PM EST by Joyce]
Sorry if this is a dupe. Can't find it anywhere....
This is the request to pray for a woman who needs us.....

http://www.terrisfight.org/
click on myths about Terri.
click on timeline
click on judge's ruling for feb 21st, 2005.

All life support of Terri Schiavo will be withdrawn tomorrow.
Her only life support necessary is a ...................................
feeding tube!
She is 41 yrs old. She has been like this 1990.
Her husband has refused to divorce her. He has power of attorney since the accident. her parents have been fighting this in court for many years to get help for Terri, and to take care of her. Her husband has kept her in one room in a care faciclity for many years. no outside trips, no visits unless he has approved them, nothing but a tv. He has denied proper medical care and rehab for her.
She responds to her family and nurses. She follows balloons and smiles, she laughs, speaks a bit, and cries.
Her husband has abused her and beat up her sister. They are all scared of him but fighting for Terri's life.
The judge has now ordered that all life sustaining methods [feeding tube] be removed and that Terri be starved to death.
The only reason her husband will not grant divorce is that there is a life insurance policy on Terri that he wants to collect for his wedding with a new woman.
There is no reason this lady must die.
Her parents have offered to take over all care for her and get her the therapy she needs to speak fluently and be heathy again. The husband has refused. He is selfish and wants the money. The couts agree with him!!!GRRRR
Terri on her wedding day...

Terri now....A visit with her mom.


PLEASE pray for her. That her feeding tube will not be removed tomorrow at 1PM and that Judge Greer will find it in his heart to review the matter again and change his ruling.
This woman needs a chance to live again and receive rehab.
God's blessings to her and her family.
Joyce
Link Posted: 2/21/2005 6:29:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/21/2005 6:32:34 PM EST

This case makes very little sense to me


Me too, and many others. That is why this judge's decision is so awful. That is why she needs prayers.
If you read the complete website more of the case is revealed. But not enough to warrent withdrawl of food or medical care.
Joyce
Link Posted: 2/21/2005 7:58:29 PM EST
Joyce thank you for updating me on who things are progressing. I can feel compassion for both sides but my heart really goes out to the parents. To think how easy it would be to give up! God Bless them and may he have mercy on her husband.

Pattymcn
Link Posted: 2/22/2005 6:49:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
This case makes very little sense to me



+1
I don't get it.
Link Posted: 2/22/2005 7:01:38 AM EST
Some things I'll never understand.

Link Posted: 2/22/2005 7:15:53 AM EST
well if it was me and this was the quality of life i wouldn't fight the feeding tube. i know i sound like a monster but i worked as a paramedic for 12 years and i'm a nurse now and if i couldn't function close to normal what type of life is that. i'm not a hold out for miricals exspecilly after all the tests and doctors. then again i wouldn't want to be a lab experement for every procedure holding onto false hope that this one may work. most of the familys i have delt with majority of them never visit or enquire unless something costs money to the family. had one son go as far as mother needing surgery for a hip replacement due to being on hospice is she was going to die anyways why waste the money and she was on hospice due to alzheimers.
Link Posted: 2/22/2005 11:43:27 AM EST
thank god they are finally letting that woman go.
Link Posted: 2/22/2005 1:10:14 PM EST
The whole thing is a terrible tragedy and very, very sad.
Link Posted: 2/22/2005 1:23:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2005 6:37:06 PM EST by Joyce]

Edited by request....Only out of respect for someone here....

My sister in law needs to be fed too. But she lives a happy life with trips and communication, and everything else fairly normal. So sad some of you would let her go....She is capable of so much love and gives it. Many here could learn from her.
When asked by her mother to Terri if she wanted to die,...she said "no".
I hope those of you who are "for" this consider what would happen to your child if they need a feeding tube based on the precedent of this case.


Link Posted: 2/22/2005 1:32:31 PM EST
It's one of those situations that man alone can not answer. What is best for this woman. I can sympathise with her parents desire to keep trying. They believe IF things were done she would progress - They should be allowed to TRY at least. But I can also understand her husbands desire to stop seeing her in the state she's in. Who knows maybe they did talk about What if. Regardless the only ones who have won is the lawyers. What a horrible way to make a living!

Pattymcn
Link Posted: 2/22/2005 1:44:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2005 2:00:31 PM EST by Joyce]
Her husband has the option of divorce. Her parents have offered to take over all care.
Divorce is a much better option than murder. They have also had a court ordered medical eval. They have evidence that things would progress if given the chance. Her husband wants the money. there is no other reason. He has already abused her and beat up several family members including one sister.
If he truly cared about his wife, he would give her a chance at the least. Can you imagine not giving the one you love a chance when the odds are good? I am guessing not,... because you care.
This isn't someone who can't talk or needs O-2 or tubes a breathing machine. She isn't in a coma, she has active brain waves. No heart trouble,no kidney failure, nothing that warrents life support...
Really friggin sad....
Maybe we should kill off the cancer patients who have lost their stomachs to cancer and use a feeding tube too? Or ones who have a colostomy bag to poop in instead of using a toilet like us.
Patty, I am not angry with you by any means.
I am very angry with ones who think this should be done based on 'life qualtiy' issues. Ask her if she wants to die. Her folks did. She said no!
Link Posted: 2/22/2005 2:21:26 PM EST
Joyce I agree completely with you and I hope I do not sound as if I am waffling in my postion. I am not. I think the husband without a doubt should have allowed the parents to try. The time and energy wasted fighting surely could have been spent else where much more productive.

I can sympathise with the husband saying he has a right to closure but I didn't realize her abilites were as high as you described. Pattymcn
Link Posted: 2/22/2005 3:10:18 PM EST
My sister Carol is mental retarded, has been since birth.

She barely talks, but she does smile every time she sees me.

If anyone tries to kill her they are going to have to go thru me first, and I doubt they will win.


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 4:09:25 AM EST
Growing up I had a neighbor who had severe brain damage and the mental capacity of perhaps a 6 month old. His name is Jonathan. He is the most loving and happy person I have ever had to fortune to meet. Think about all the wonder that is in a 6 month old's eyes. They have the ability to recognize and respond to love as well as give it back unconditionally. When I think about this case, I think about my neighbor. If anyone from the courts were able to spend time with Terri (or Jonathan), they would know that a human lies within.
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 4:15:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
My sister Carol is mental retarded, has been since birth.

She barely talks, but she does smile every time she sees me.

If anyone tries to kill her they are going to have to go thru me first, and I doubt they will win.


Sgatr15



Think about it this way:

What if your sister was normal at one time. And while she was normal, and of sound mind, she stated that if anythingever happened, She did not want life support. She did not want a feeding tube. etc. You give her your word you will honor her request.

Would you do what she asked? Regardless of what you feel, you gave your word.
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 4:24:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
My sister Carol is mental retarded, has been since birth.

She barely talks, but she does smile every time she sees me.

If anyone tries to kill her they are going to have to go thru me first, and I doubt they will win.


Sgatr15



Think about it this way:

What if your sister was normal at one time. And while she was normal, and of sound mind, she stated that if anythingever happened, She did not want life support. She did not want a feeding tube. etc. You give her your word you will honor her request.

Would you do what she asked? Regardless of what you feel, you gave your word.

Wouldn't you want to give your sister every chance you could before starving her to death? This woman is not on "life support". Her heart is beating on it's own. She's breathing. She smiling, responding to people, moving around, and communicating. We aren't talking about unplugging a ventilator and watching her die within minutes, she will live for weeks in agony without the feeding tube. Starvation is a slow and brutal way to die, and this woman is conscious!
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 4:30:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By cat_aclysm:
Wouldn't you want to give your sister every chance you could before starving her to death? This woman is not on "life support". Her heart is beating on it's own. She's breathing. She smiling, responding to people, moving around, and communicating. We aren't talking about unplugging a ventilator and watching her die within minutes, she will live for weeks in agony without the feeding tube. Starvation is a slow and brutal way to die, and this woman is conscious!



My word is my bond.

If the situations she described were now the conditions she was in, i would uphold my word.

I don't know what this huband and wife agreed to. Nobody probably ever will.
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 4:47:42 AM EST
This is a vey touchy subject........

P.S. Isn't she getting better?
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 7:34:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By NAM:

Would you do what she asked? Regardless of what you feel, you gave your word.



I would never make that promise to anyone.

Sgatr15
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 7:57:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By NAM:

Would you do what she asked? Regardless of what you feel, you gave your word.



I would never make that promise to anyone.

Sgatr15



Fair enough.

Link Posted: 2/23/2005 8:06:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By cat_aclysm:
Wouldn't you want to give your sister every chance you could before starving her to death? This woman is not on "life support". Her heart is beating on it's own. She's breathing. She smiling, responding to people, moving around, and communicating. We aren't talking about unplugging a ventilator and watching her die within minutes, she will live for weeks in agony without the feeding tube. Starvation is a slow and brutal way to die, and this woman is conscious!



My word is my bond.

If the situations she described were now the conditions she was in, i would uphold my word.

I don't know what this huband and wife agreed to. Nobody probably ever will.

When asked, Terri has said that she does not want to die. I guess the prior promise to kill her should she ever need a feeding tube over rules that? (Assuming that such a promise was even made, which I highly doubt.)
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 8:16:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2005 8:26:01 AM EST by drache]

Originally Posted By cat_aclysm:

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By cat_aclysm:
Wouldn't you want to give your sister every chance you could before starving her to death? This woman is not on "life support". Her heart is beating on it's own. She's breathing. She smiling, responding to people, moving around, and communicating. We aren't talking about unplugging a ventilator and watching her die within minutes, she will live for weeks in agony without the feeding tube. Starvation is a slow and brutal way to die, and this woman is conscious!



My word is my bond.

If the situations she described were now the conditions she was in, i would uphold my word.

I don't know what this huband and wife agreed to. Nobody probably ever will.

When asked, Terri has said that she does not want to die. I guess the prior promise to kill her should she ever need a feeding tube over rules that? (Assuming that such a promise was even made, which I highly doubt.)



Wait a second!
You mean she's talking. Concious and alert. Aware of her surroundings?

WTF?

If she's doing all that why the hell is there even a question about it?
Hell, I thought we were talking about someone in a coma. Didn't realize we were talking about an ACTIVE person. (Guess I should actually read the story. )

However, if this is the case, there's just no question at all for me. Not feeding her is the same as murder then. Couldn't even stretch my imagination to call it Euthenasia.
For crying out loud, you have to feed babies. Does that mean we have the right to let them die because we don't want to feed them anymore?

Jiminy Crickets!
What a douchbag!

Maybe we should stop the husband from eating too then. Sounds just as fair don't it?


ETA: Ok, I've read enough to see that not even doctors can agree. Which tells me there's at least something there. If she were truely a vegetable, not one damn doctor in the world would be arguing about it.
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 8:26:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By drache:

Originally Posted By cat_aclysm:

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By cat_aclysm:
Wouldn't you want to give your sister every chance you could before starving her to death? This woman is not on "life support". Her heart is beating on it's own. She's breathing. She smiling, responding to people, moving around, and communicating. We aren't talking about unplugging a ventilator and watching her die within minutes, she will live for weeks in agony without the feeding tube. Starvation is a slow and brutal way to die, and this woman is conscious!



My word is my bond.

If the situations she described were now the conditions she was in, i would uphold my word.

I don't know what this huband and wife agreed to. Nobody probably ever will.

When asked, Terri has said that she does not want to die. I guess the prior promise to kill her should she ever need a feeding tube over rules that? (Assuming that such a promise was even made, which I highly doubt.)



Wait a second!
You mean she's talking. Concious and alert. Aware of her surroundings?

WTF?

If she's doing all that why the hell is there even a question about it?
Hell, I thought we were talking about someone in a coma. Didn't realize we were talking about an ACTIVE person. (Guess I should actually read the story. )

However, if this is the case, there's just no question at all for me. Not feeding her is the same as murder then. Couldn't even stretch my imagination to call it Euthenasia.
For crying out loud, you have to feed babies. Does that mean we have the right to let them die because we don't want to feed them anymore?

Jiminy Crickets!
What a douchbag!

Maybe we should stop the husband from eating too then. Sounds just as fair don't it?



From the website mentioned above:

Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move around her. None of these behaviors are simple reflexes and are, instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has limitations, she does interact purposefully with her environment.


She communicates, but not neccessarily verbally or at a normal adult level. She needs rehab, which her dearest husband stopped 10 years ago. He has a new family now, so he doesn't need her.
Link Posted: 2/24/2005 4:02:33 PM EST
I've been away for a couple of days, but as of this morning, you could reach the FL. Governor's office at 1-850-488-2272 if you wanted to bend Jeb's ear about the situation.

Yes, the number works.


(I was surprised)
Link Posted: 2/24/2005 4:40:04 PM EST
I've followed this story off and on for a while and I still don't understand why she needs a feeding tube. If this was a relative of mine I would at least try feeding her some baby type food.
Link Posted: 2/24/2005 5:29:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By SDavid:
I've followed this story off and on for a while and I still don't understand why she needs a feeding tube. If this was a relative of mine I would at least try feeding her some baby type food.



+1
Link Posted: 2/24/2005 5:37:02 PM EST

I've been away for a couple of days, but as of this morning, you could reach the FL. Governor's office at 1-850-488-2272 if you wanted to bend Jeb's ear about the situation.

Yes, the number works.


(I was surprised)



Thank you!! I know many who will call tomorrow first thing!

She can not eat baby food or other things just yet. There is a possibility down the road that she can. Her esophagus will not handle the contractions needed to get it into her stomach[rehab may take care of this.]. The new development for those of you who can not access the website,...is that they are fighting for speech therapy. She has already learned small words, ..."yeh and no" . She can progress the drs have said,[ but given ther fact that her husband has power of attorney,] he will not allow it.
Obvioulsy if Terri's ruling has come this far thru prayers and re-consideration by the judge...more can happen if we keep at it.
Please, if you feel it is worthy, do so.
Joyce
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 6:45:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By cat_aclysm:
From the website mentioned above:

Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move around her. None of these behaviors are simple reflexes and are, instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has limitations, she does interact purposefully with her environment.


She communicates, but not neccessarily verbally or at a normal adult level. She needs rehab, which her dearest husband stopped 10 years ago. He has a new family now, so he doesn't need her.



I certainly don't want to get into a fight (especially not in the women's forum), but the websites and organizations that are trying to "save" here are just plain INCORRECT (I don't want to say "lying" but personally, I think that is what they are doing). It's unfortunate, because their hearts are obviously in the right place, but to imply that she is COGNITIVE is complete BS.

Her brain was destroyed, and she has NO cognitive responses - there is NO higher brain function in her at all. Terri Schiavo died many years ago, and what is left is nothing but meat and bones.

To say stuff like the website does "She laughs, speaks a bit, and cries" are COMPLETE FABRICATIONS. She may have random movements, but to imply that she has cognitive activity is nothing byt he desperate denial of her parents. There have been several HEAVILY EDITED video clips that are meant to show her moving around, etc - but the medical evidence is clear and unambiguous.

Multiple judges would NEVER have ruled that it was okay to kill "her" unless there was overwhelming evidence that she IS in fact comepltely brain dead. This case has nothing to do with killing a human over "quality of life" or eugenics or anything like that.

She IS in a persistent vegetative state - and the fact that some people desperately don't WANT to believe that, doesn't change the reality of it.



That said, I don't understand why it's a big deal. If the poor parents are willing to take care of her, why not let them? If the husband thinks he is carrying out here "wishes" to not be like that, he can stop worrying, because his wife died 15 years ago when he brain was killed.

Apologies if I have offended anyone. IM me if I have and I'll edit or delete my post.

Link Posted: 2/25/2005 6:58:16 AM EST
I heard the other side of the story too DK, and I'm convinced that she is in a permanent vegetative state.

If it was me (thankfully it isn't) I'd want to give it up, no matter what Dr's. and other say I've said in my severly diminished capacity, I don't believe she has spoken a word since the accident.

If it were my wife, I'd pull the plug as she has requested. This would be a gret time for folks who haven't done so to go ahead with a living will.

The worst part about this is that it has gone on so long.

Call me what you want, I dont care, I'm really not a bad guy.
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 10:05:09 AM EST
ah the heck with it...I have nothing better to do...so I will ramble about my response

I have been hearing about this for years...but never heard this other side about her responding to anything...will have to look into this more

But I am really curious because I have known far too many people told their child is brain dead...and there is no gray...it is black or white..and childrens brains do recover from far more tramatic injuries then adults...

I do believe in discontecting life support...but a feeding tube seems really cruel and painful way to die

But if someone is willing to take on the care of this woman...then so be it.....I dont think the husband should fight the parents...which of course makes me wonder if there is a different reason behind this...if he divorced her (like the future king of englan) he might have some remarriage issues in certain churches....if this is all purely personal to the husband...
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 10:13:07 AM EST
I'm sure there are 3 sides to this story, the parents' side, the husband's side, and the truth. The parents' motives can be dismissed as unfounded hope based on their love for their daughter, but what about the husband's supposed motive? He claims to be doing this in order to fulfill a promise he made to his wife at least 14 years ago, but apparently the other promises he made to her (like "'til death do us part", "foresaking all others", etc.) meant little to this man, so why should we believe that, after 14+ years, this man has suddenly decided to keep this promise and no other out of pure love for his wife? Sorry, folks, I'd rather err on the side of love and hope. Like has been pointed out allready, if his motives are genuine, why not just divorce her and let the parents care for her like they have been trying to do all along? Why is his promise all of a sudden so important after all these years?
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 10:31:50 AM EST
The meidcal definition of persistant vegatative state has not been met in this case.
Here is the medical and legal definition....
" A persistent vegetative state (commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death") sometimes follows a coma. Individuals in such a state have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands."

This woman is aware of her surroundings and family visitations, She SPEAKS and is ABLE to responds to SOME commands. Not many words, not many commands, but the progress she has made has been outstanding.

IF this woman is sentenced to death, the precedent set in the court system will be there for you, for me , and for our children. This case will be cited as means for anyone to step up and have this carried out. All in the name of a feeding tube. She DOES NOT qualify for the medical defintion of a "persistent vegetative state"
Terri is utmost concern in this case, but later,.....we all will be.

I find it so appalling that some of you say..."If so many drs and judges have approved this it must be good and correct".
When you know damn well if they approved gun abolishment or some other issue you consider near and dear, You would not care HOW MANY decided it was right. You would fight. So I find that argument pathetic.
Would you say the same if it was your child that smiled when you walked into the room,and laughed when you tickled her, and cried when you left? I sure hope not.....
Think about that....


Link Posted: 2/25/2005 10:39:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Joyce:
Her husband has the option of divorce. Her parents have offered to take over all care.
Divorce is a much better option than murder. They have also had a court ordered medical eval. They have evidence that things would progress if given the chance. Her husband wants the money. there is no other reason. He has already abused her and beat up several family members including one sister.
If he truly cared about his wife, he would give her a chance at the least. Can you imagine not giving the one you love a chance when the odds are good? I am guessing not,... because you care.
This isn't someone who can't talk or needs O-2 or tubes a breathing machine. She isn't in a coma, she has active brain waves. No heart trouble,no kidney failure, nothing that warrents life support...
Really friggin sad....
Maybe we should kill off the cancer patients who have lost their stomachs to cancer and use a feeding tube too? Or ones who have a colostomy bag to poop in instead of using a toilet like us.
Patty, I am not angry with you by any means.
I am very angry with ones who think this should be done based on 'life qualtiy' issues. Ask her if she wants to die. Her folks did. She said no!





Before anyone gets so fast to say yank her feeding tube, get ahold of this book, "Nor Meekly Serve My Time". It is about the hunger strikers in Ireland in the late 70's to early 80's. Granted, they chose to go on a hunger strike, but that is a horrible way to die, extremely painfull!!!
Her husband sued and was given 1.5 million dollars in order to take care of her and re-habilitate her. As soon as he gets the money he dumps her in a hospice then takes up with another woman. Seems to me he just wants his money, and maybe is scared she will be able to talk and drop a dime on him for poisoning her.
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 10:44:26 AM EST

Multiple judges would NEVER have ruled that it was okay to kill "her" unless there was overwhelming evidence that she IS in fact comepltely brain dead. This case has nothing to do with killing a human over "quality of life" or eugenics or anything like that.

She IS in a persistent vegetative state - and the fact that some people desperately don't WANT to believe that, doesn't change the reality of it.......because his wife died 15 years ago when he brain was killed.



If the brain was truly dead, there would be no response. I would like to see your proof of "heavily edited video". I would also like to see your medical proof of "brain dead" and persistant vegatative state".
As you see defined in my post above, she is not in this state as a medical defintion would have it. It isn't a matter of whether I want to believe it or not, there is no evidence to support it based on what you mentioned. If there is,..show me.
And I don't want biased sites that her husband or the media has put out. I want MEDICAL evidence. Then we can talk....If she was completely brain dead as you say,...her normal body functions would cease to exsist including heart, lungs and essential organs.


Again I say,....
If these judges were presenting a gun abolishment issue for the US and had in their possesion, evidence of why they should be banned, I would imagine you would find evidence against it and fight it.
If you don't want to pursue these options on Terri's case, so be it, but I hope you realize the precedent it will set for future cases. And I hope you realize....Just because people say it is so,...Don't mean a damn thing! Find the evidence, weigh it for yourself as I am willing to do, should you produce it.
At this point all evidence I have seen in the medical field and neurology field points otherwise.

Joyce
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 10:49:57 AM EST
What really gets me is that stray dogs and cats are euthanized and put to death very fast. Why don't they just starve them to death then, would be cheaper? Why does her husband want to her die so bad? Her folks offered to take over care of her, so why should he care? I know if my wife were in the same state as Terri I would be doing everything I could to get her as well as possible, I can not even beging to imagine allowing my wife to starve to death.
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 11:22:00 AM EST
For those who say, "but a judge said.... so it must be true", please remember that this is taking place in Florida. No offence to any Floridians among us, but Florida judges don't exactly have a stellar track record.

Again, I have 2 main questions for the husband:

1) Why now? He's had what 14 years to honor his alleged promise to his wife, but it apparently wasn't all that important to him, even after he stopped the rehab and dumped her in hospice to start a new family, so what changed?

2) Why this promise? He doesn't seem to feel particularly bound by the other promises he made to his wife, so why is this one different? Am I really expected to believe that he has suddenly become noble? While his wife (whom he claims to care about) was lying in a hospital bed, he started a new family. I've heard of folks remarrying before their spouse's body was even cold, but this man couldn't even wait for her heart to stop beating.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe I'm a cynic.
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 11:27:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 11:29:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Joyce:
The meidcal definition of persistant vegatative state has not been met in this case.
Here is the medical and legal definition....
" A persistent vegetative state (commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death") sometimes follows a coma. Individuals in such a state have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands."

This woman is aware of her surroundings and family visitations, She SPEAKS and is ABLE to responds to SOME commands. Not many words, not many commands, but the progress she has made has been outstanding.

IF this woman is sentenced to death, the precedent set in the court system will be there for you, for me , and for our children. This case will be cited as means for anyone to step up and have this carried out. All in the name of a feeding tube. She DOES NOT qualify for the medical defintion of a "persistent vegetative state"
Terri is utmost concern in this case, but later,.....we all will be.



I am certainly not an expert on this, nor do I have a medical degree, nor have I ever seen the person in question.

However, I do know from what I have seen and read about it, that every UNBIASED medical professional that has examined her has concluded that her brain is completely kaput. She has no higher cognitive functions at all. The "human" part of her is gone.

Without sounding offensive and insulting (I hope), I really and honestly believe that the so-called "evidence" of her speaking and responding to commands, etc - is completely fabricated by her desperate parents (and paid medical "professionals")

As far as I know, ALL the independent doctors that have examined her have concluded that her brain is severely and permanently damaged, and that she cannot recover. She is in a persistent vegetative state - whether her parents WANT to believe it or not.

Obviously, she still has brain function, since lower functions govern all kind of autonomic systems in the body, and those things are still working. Like a computer with a fried CPU, it might still power up, and lights might flicker, but that doesn't mean you can run applications on it.



I find it so appalling that some of you say..."If so many drs and judges have approved this it must be good and correct".
When you know damn well if they approved gun abolishment or some other issue you consider near and dear, You would not care HOW MANY decided it was right. You would fight. So I find that argument pathetic.
Would you say the same if it was your child that smiled when you walked into the room,and laughed when you tickled her, and cried when you left? I sure hope not.....
Think about that....





Again, I hope I am not insulting or offending you, but I think that is a very faulty analogy.

Mercy killings are ILLEGAL in the United States, and that is why Kevorkian is in prison, even when he only helped terminally ill patients to die. Murder is ILLEGAL in the U.S.

I don't think the fact that judges are willing to okay gun legislation that we perceive to be a violation of the Consitution to imply that they would willingly abandon a principle that there is COMPLETE AGREEMENT on in the United States. The only reason some judges approve gun control, and other deny it, and it works it way tortorously through the system, is precisely because there is disagreement and varying interpretations of what the Consitution and law says.

The reason judges and doctors are willing to say "it's okay to pull the feeding tube" is that there is no disagreement or ambiguity in this case. Everyone AGREES that it is NOT okay to kill people. But all the experts also agree that she is in a persistent vegetative state. The fact that he parents WILL NOT, or CANNOT accept that is tragic, but doesn't change reality. To suggest that there is something sinister and underhanded going on, implies a vast conspiracy among judges and doctors, that would have the eventual goal of opening the door to bizarre eugenics practices - and I find THAT premise completely and wholly unconvincing.

Terry Schiavo is dead. I'm sure she is sitting in heaven and having her heart torn out over the agony her parents are going through over her empty shell that is still on earth.



While I disagree with you over what it means to let the body die, I COMPLETELY agree with you that there is no reason whatsoever that it should happen in this case. Regardless of her circumstance, her parents are willing to take care of the hunk of meat that used to be their daughter - and I really don't understand why the husband will not allow it - not for Terri Schiavo, but for her parents sake. Perhaps he is an asshole with an ulterior motive, or perhaps he honestly feels like he is doing what his wife woudl have wanted. I don't know, but I feel horribly for her parents - because they must be suffering terribly.



I am probably just repeating myself at this point, and don't want to unecessarily rile people up. Like I said, I HONESTLY believe that much of the passion surrounding this case arises from misinformation spread by her desperate parents, and other well-intentioned people with an agenda around this issue.
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 11:56:06 AM EST
I lived in that area for about 10 years and hardly a day went by without hearing about this case. This is the first I've ever heard any claims of her responding to outside stimuli. It's not something new that her husband is just now trying to do. It's been ongoing for years. A few years ago all the doc's and judges agreed (from the medical opinions) that there was no chance of improvement. At the last minute Jeb stepped in and halted it.

However, none of us here are directly involved with this case to derive at an informed conclusion. Only a small portion of the brain (the Medulla) is responsible for respiratory effort. The heart beats on its own without CNS intervention. I do, however, agree that starving her to induce her death is not a pleasant thought. Quite frankly I can't believe she has survived this long.
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 2:36:09 PM EST
Another twist is that her "husband" wants her cremated ASAP!!!!
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 3:23:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2005 3:25:04 PM EST by Joyce]
www.crisismagazine.com/january2004/johansen.htm



Even more powerful is the testimony of the numerous doctors who emphatically deny that Terri is in a PVS. The most convincing medical testimony comes from Dr. William Hammesfahr, a neurologist specializing in the treatment of brain injuries, who has spent approximately twelve hours examining Terri. At the October 24 press conference, Hammesfahr explained that Terri is able to respond to commands: She can raise and lower her limbs, although her range of motion is limited by severe muscular contractures from a lack of physical therapy for more than a decade. Doctors testifying for Michael Schiavo have dismissed such responses as reflexes. But what is most telling is Hammesfahr’s description of Terri’s response to a standard strength test: In this test he asked Terri to lift up her leg while he pressed down on it with his hand. He instructed her to keep lifting it in spite of his pressure. Hammesfahr explained how he could feel Terri pressing up against his hand with the same degree of force with which he was pressing down, so as to keep her leg in the same relative position. Such a response, Hammesfahr explained, is simply not reducible to a “reflex.”

Hammesfahr has even observed her move her head and limbs into positions that clearly cause her discomfort and maintain them in order to carry out instructions he gave her. Such behavior, Hammesfahr said, cannot be reflexive: “Reflexes are designed to avoid injury. They are there to prevent pain.” One has to overcome reflexes in order to perform a task in spite of discomfort or pain.




She smiles, frowns, or acts sullenly depending on who the person is and what he or she does or says. She reacts quite markedly to music, particularly piano music, which she always especially enjoyed. A certified speech therapist asserted that Terri does attempt to verbalize and has been heard saying “yes,” “no,” “Mommy,” and possibly even “Help me.”
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 3:32:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2005 3:45:42 PM EST by Joyce]
Not going to argue this....Not offended for another expressing their opinion. But I felt compelled to offer, to those interested, medical comments from other drs besides the ones for the husband...
BTW- Now the husband wants immediate creamation with no autopsy....

This particular dr was not paid nor hired by Terri's family....

read full article here


Dr. Baden, who has written three books on forensic pathology, told Van Susteren: "It's extremely rare for a 20-year-old to have a cardiac arrest from low potassium who has no other diseases . . . which she doesn't have. . . . The reason that she's in the state she's in is because there was a period of time, maybe five or eight minutes, when not enough oxygen was going to her brain. That can happen because the heart stops for five or eight minutes, but she had a healthy heart from what we can see." (Emphasis added).

Dr. Baden then addressed the 1991 bone-scan report on Terri Schiavo, which was completed on March 5 of that year by Dr. W. Campbell Walker in order to "evaluate for trauma" that may have been caused by a suspected "closed head injury." In the report, Walker wrote:

"This patient has a history of trauma. The presumption is that the other multiple areas of trauma also relate to previous trauma." (Emphasis added).

Here we get to what focused Dr. Baden's attention. On cnsnews.com, Jeff Johnson reported, "Walker listed apparent injuries to the ribs, thoracic vertebrae, both sacroiliac joints, both ankles and both knees."

In his interview with Greta Van Susteren, Dr. Baden noted "that the bone scan describes her having a head injury . . . and head injury can lead to the 'vegetative state' that Mrs. Schiavo is in now."

But, Baden continued, the bone scan "does show evidence that there are other injuries, other bone fractures that are in a healing stage [in 1991]." Those injuries could have happened, Baden continued, from "some kind of trauma. The trauma could be from an auto accident, the trauma could be from a fall, or the trauma could be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It's something that should have been investigated in 1991. . . and maybe [it was] by police at that time." (Emphasis added).

Why not see if there was a police report on those traumas to Terri in 1990? The Advocacy Center for Persons With Disabilities should look into this during its investigation of possible incidents of abuse and neglect of Terri. Moreover, Pamela Hennessy, spokesperson for Terri's parents and her brother, told cnsnews.com, "This is what the family and their doctors have been saying for a number of years."

I asked Hennessy to clarify that statement. "From the beginning," she told me, "they had serious doubts as to the reason for Terri's collapse. Then, when they first heard about the bone-scan report in November of last year, they tried to file a report with the police on a possible battery on Terri. But the police wouldn't help them."

The family believes that after Terri and her husband had a violent argument earlier on the evening she collapsed, Terri might have been strangled later that night. Says Pat Anderson, the lawyer for Terri's parents:

"Governor Jeb Bush should order the state-wide prosecutor of Florida to convene a jury to investigate all of this." And the Advocacy Center for Persons With Disability has that 1991 bone-scan report. Will the courts wait for the investigations-or hurry to send her into eternity? Should Michael Schiavo have the guardianship power to terminate her?

Copyright Human Life Foundation, Incorporated Fall 2003
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.

Link Posted: 2/25/2005 4:10:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Joyce:
Not going to argue this....Not offended for another expressing their opinion.




Thanks.

Like I said - I agree 100% with you that the parents should be allowed to take care of her, and the husband SHOULD allow them to do so.

In this case, the technicalities of her brain activity seem almost irrelevant.



Link Posted: 2/28/2005 7:46:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/28/2005 8:05:03 AM EST by valcorie]
The problem with the situation is that there is a huge medical malpractice settlement involved. If he divorces her the parents get all the money, if he stays and she dies, he gets it. From my understanding this poor women is a pawn anyway you look at it. I don't 100% trust either sides motivation.

I am more apt to sympathize with the husband from the information that I have read. However, outside of the court room no one really knows the facts. From my understanding she has been brain dead for 15 years, with no actual responses to stimula. She does have spontanitous movement, but no brain activity. She verbaly expressed a wish ofr no heroic measures before this event and it was documented and upheld in court. IF all of this is true then i would say...In my enough is enough, if that was her wish, give her peace.

However, if she is as many claim, responsive but non verbal and not given rehab as needed and her husband is/was abusive, then definatly let the parents care for her.

I think the only sure way to know each parties motivation is to declare that no one was to profit from it an all money was held by a trustee for her medical care. I bet people would show their true colors then.-val
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 7:57:25 AM EST

The problem with the situationis that there si a huge medical malpractice settlement involved. If he divorces her the parents get allthe money, if he stays and she dies, he gets it. From my understanding this poor women is a pawn anyway you look at it. I don't 100% trust either sides motivation.

I am more apt to sympathize with the husband from the information that I have read. However, outside of the court room no one really knows the facts. From my understanding she has been brain dead for 15 years, with no actual responses to stimula. She does have spontanitous movement, but no brain activity. She verbaly expressed a wish ofr no heroic measures before this event and it was documented and upheld in court. In my personal opinion enough is enough. If that was her wish, give her peace.

-val



I respect you opinion. But I believe you to be wrong.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 8:07:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Joyce:
I respect you opinion. But I believe you to be wrong.



LOOK
i edited my quote....hock.gif
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 8:25:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/28/2005 8:28:14 AM EST by valcorie]
Michael Schiavo said his wife never wanted to be kept alive artificially, but she left no written directive. He says he's fulfilling a promise he made to her, and he has spent most of a $700,000 medical malpractice award given to his wife for her care to pay his attorney.

Her parents, with financial backing from the California-based Life Legal Defense Foundation, have vowed to keep litigating the case to keep Terri alive. They dismiss arguments that she is in vegetative state, believing she could get better with therapy, that she laughs, responds to them and tries to talk.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4828022,00.html
By MITCH STACY
Associated Press Writer


It seems there was only $700,000 involved so perhaps money isn't as big of an issue as I and many others are under the impression.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 9:33:03 AM EST
Val,
I wasn't trying to offend you, or anyone who disagrees with my opinion.
I was just stating I believe them to be wrong, just as they probably believe me to be wrong.
I am OK with that! LOL

I don't think there is a money issue, other than the life ins the husband would get is she dies. What I can't understand is this....
If I were in her position, and my husbnad was honoring my wishes, and it wasn't against any religious objectives [he has stated as much], I would want an autopsy. I would want to know why all this happened so it may help someone else. Being that they don't know for sure, I would want someone to know.
I believe if someone is truly committed to their mate, they would want to know what went wrong as well.

In my humble opinion, he is covering for something, be it abuse, lack or proper care or what.
I hope this is resolved soon and they give her to her parents. At least they are willing to carry out PT for her.
respect,
Joyce
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 1:59:11 PM EST
I really find it difficult to believe that this woman will ever be any different than she is now. I think what the parents are seeing is merely reflexes, etc. but they want to believe so badly that these are responses they will not accept any other explanation. However, I do not see why the husband is so adament in going against the parents' wishes.

This is what is in the news today about this:

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - Terri Schiavo's parents asked a judge Monday to allow the severely brain-damaged woman to divorce her husband, accusing him of adultery and not acting in his wife's best interests.

It was one of a flurry of 15 motions filed by Bob and Mary Schindler, who have less than three weeks to find a way to keep their daughter alive.

Michael Schiavo says his wife, who has spent 15 years in what doctors call a vegetative state, once told him she would never want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents have fought his efforts but Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer ruled that Schiavo can have her feeding tube removed on March 18.

The Schindlers' attorney, David Gibbs, said Greer had indicated he will not hear the divorce request and five of the other motions filed Monday, but that only means that the matters are now on their way to being appealed.

Other motions by the Schindlers ask that some news reporters be allowed to see Terri Schiavo's interactions with her parents, since they contend she responds to them; that they be allowed to take pictures with her before she dies and that those photographs not become Michael Schiavo's property, as a current court order now requires; that she be allowed to die at home; and that they be allowed to bury her rather than the cremation her husband has planned.




But I have to post the link to a story I had followed in VA.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=321110
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 2:19:22 PM EST
No. I didn't take offense. i just wanted to point out that I made my post a little more well rounded.

I do think that it is strange that her husband would rather her die at the hospital than at home. Perhaps there are reasons though- the parents would put the feeding tube back in? or would exploit the situation? maybe she can receive medication that will help her be comfortable at a hospital. If the court decides that they cannot do this they probably have some reason.

However, at this point would an autopsy even prove anything? I havn't heard any arguements about it being a point of contention. As far as I know they no exactly the reason this happened- she had an eating disorder most likely anorexdia and it caused a chemical in her brain to shut off and thus her heart stopped. Before it could be restarted enough time lapsed that her brain was deprived of oxygen and it was no longer functioning.

How could an autopsy be helpful? It wouldn't show any 'foul play' or specific accident details... It all comes down to her wishes. Perhaps she expressed a desire to be cremated, or it is for religious reasons. Do we really know?

I still lean toward the husband's side of things. I feel that a married couple has the right to make decisions for each other, in each others best interests.

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