Selective breeding and speciation

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Selective breeding and speciation (Page 1 of 4)

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:36:50 PM EDT

I read in another thread that ...

Certain aspects of evolution can also be observed in the way in which man has participated in selective breeding of animals and plants to promote desireable traits.

AT first blush, this seems contradictory.

Selective breeding as a means to remove undersirable traits or promote desirable traits does not seem a concept cohesive with natural selection.

I have to imagine no one really thinks selective breeding (sentient advancement of a species by deliberate selection of the best traits and exclusion of negative traits) is in any way evidentiary that the same process happens in nature, without the element of sentience.

So perhaps I'm missing the concept , and I'll ask this question -

What really is learned about natural selection from (sentient) selective breeding?

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:37:32 PM EDT

[#1]

Dupe.

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:39:21 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Dupe.

Where?

Everything is a dupe.

You are a dupe.

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:40:45 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I read in another thread that ...

Certain aspects of evolution can also be observed in the way in which man has participated in selective breeding of animals and plants to promote desireable traits.

AT first blush, this seems contradictory.

Selective breeding as a means to remove undersirable traits or promote desirable traits does not seem a concept cohesive with natural selection.

I have to imagine no one really thinks selective breeding (sentient advancement of a species by deliberate selection of the best traits and exclusion of negative traits) is in any way evidentiary that the same process happens in nature, without the element of sentience.

So perhaps I'm missing the concept , and I'll ask this question -

What really is learned about natural selection from (sentient) selective breeding?

What is learned from it is how EASY it is to "change" a species,given the right pressures.

Look at how different a Chihuahua is from a Wolf - yet one was created from the other in relatively few generations.

The time-span of man's evolution from a simpler primate is thousands of times that number of generations, and the pressure to survive in a difficult environmental niche (especially during climatic changes like ice ages and glaciation) are surely not that much LESS pressing that a chinese emperor's desire to have a tiny lapdog bred from wild wolves.

One pressure is artificial, one is "natural" but both drive change and illustrate just how much change is possible in relatively short periods of time.

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:40:57 PM EDT

[#4]

veiled religious thread, how cute

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:41:16 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Dupe.

Where?

Everything is a dupe.

You are a dupe.

He is a psychopolitical dupe!

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:43:54 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
veiled religious thread, how cute

No, its not.

Its purely scientific.

Unless your intent is to say I can NEVER psot anything in GD.

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:45:37 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
veiled religious thread, how cute

No, its not.

Its purely scientific.

Unless your intent is to say I can NEVER psot anything in GD.

no I just see this thread as a way to try and debunk "evilution" in an attempt to prove the presence of a supreme being.

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:45:55 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

What is learned from it is how EASY it is to "change" a species,given the right pressures.

Look at how different a Chihuahua is from a Wolf - yet one was created from the other in relatively few generations.

My jack russell is a case in point. Selectively bread to develop a dog with specific traits and skills.

But the sentient element was ALWAYS present in developing the breed.

Easy yes, but only with the sentient element.

Right?

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:46:03 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I read in another thread that ...

Certain aspects of evolution can also be observed in the way in which man has participated in selective breeding of animals and plants to promote desireable traits.

AT first blush, this seems contradictory.

Selective breeding as a means to remove undersirable traits or promote desirable traits does not seem a concept cohesive with natural selection.

I have to imagine no one really thinks selective breeding (sentient advancement of a species by deliberate selection of the best traits and exclusion of negative traits) is in any way evidentiary that the same process happens in nature, without the element of sentience.

So perhaps I'm missing the concept , and I'll ask this question -

What really is learned about natural selection from (sentient) selective breeding?

Nothing. Selective breeding is the opposite of natural selection. It also goes deeper in nature to population trends and differences in them as animals travel in different herds, packs, etc. which interefere with pure natural selection.

We humas are screwed as a species because a lot of people(women are most famous for this) go after men with non-genetic features such as monetary traits.

You're making a valid point but I feel as this is another evolution debate, which is pitting someone else's religion against yours. Yes, some people take theories to a religious instead of scientific level so don't go spewing the "he's religious" bullshit. A theory is a theory and is thusly not called fact or it wouldn't be "evolution theory" but "evolution law".

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:47:26 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dupe.

Where?

Everything is a dupe.

You are a dupe.

He is a psychopolitical dupe!

Tonight I feel more like a dope...

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:48:00 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

no I just see this thread as a way to try and debunk "evilution" in an attempt to prove the presence of a supreme being.

With the right libations, I imagine people can see ALOT of things.

I'm working VERY hard to keep teh religious elemnt out of this - mostly by trolls who are gonna try to throw God into this.

But why is it wrong to ask questions of the theory of evolution? Isn't that how we learn?

There's nothing to be afraid of in seeking answers and truth.

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:48:19 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dupe.

Where?

Everything is a dupe.

You are a dupe.

He is a psychopolitical dupe!

Tonight I feel more like a dope...

I feel that way every night - you get used to it eventually!

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:50:15 PM EDT

[#13]

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:50:22 PM EDT

[#14]

selective breeding is what gave us all the differant type of dogs and cat and other animals.

We also breed plants.

But I don't believe you actually intend to learn by poisting this thread.

Sgatr15

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:50:35 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Nothing. Selective breeding is the opposite of natural selection. It also goes deeper in nature to population trends and differences in them as animals travel in different herds, packs, etc. which interefere with pure natural selection.

We humas are screwed as a species because a lot of people(women are most famous for this) go after men with non-genetic features such as monetary traits.

You're making a valid point but I feel as this is another evolution debate, which is pitting someone else's religion against yours. Yes, some people take theories to a religious instead of scientific level so don't go spewing the "he's religious" bullshit. A theory is a theory and is thusly not called fact or it wouldn't be "evolution theory" but "evolution law".

I'm asking for no religious content in thsi thread. THo some people see what they want to see.

So true about women procreating with modern piltdown man, and diluting the gene pool with their offspring.

But thanx for a honest answer.

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:51:52 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
selective breeding is what gave us all the differant type of dogs and cat and other animals.

We also breed plants.

But I don't believe you actually intend to learn by poisting this thread.

Sgatr15

Here in America, you are free to imagine whatever you like, my good friend.

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:52:40 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dupe.

Where?

Everything is a dupe.

You are a dupe.

He is a psychopolitical dupe!

Tonight I feel more like a dope...

I feel that way every night - you get used to it eventually!

How long before I get used to it????

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:55:48 PM EDT

[#18]

who gives a fuck why he posted the thread you damn crybabies

Posted: 8/13/2005 5:59:01 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
who gives a fuck why he posted the thread you damn crybabies

Please stay on topic.

Posted: 8/13/2005 6:22:50 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:

What is learned from it is how EASY it is to "change" a species,given the right pressures.

Look at how different a Chihuahua is from a Wolf - yet one was created from the other in relatively few generations.

My jack russell is a case in point. Selectively bread to develop a dog with specific traits and skills.

But the sentient element was ALWAYS present in developing the breed.

Easy yes, but only with the sentient element.

Right?

Wrong, did you read the rest of his post or just the part that you quoted?

Eliments of nature and environment can promote genetic variance. There is no point in arguing this with you if you continue to be incredulous about the subject.

You don't want to understant evolution. Apparently all you want to disprove it.

Posted: 8/13/2005 6:29:44 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

What is learned from it is how EASY it is to "change" a species,given the right pressures.

Look at how different a Chihuahua is from a Wolf - yet one was created from the other in relatively few generations.

My jack russell is a case in point. Selectively bread to develop a dog with specific traits and skills.

But the sentient element was ALWAYS present in developing the breed.

Easy yes, but only with the sentient element.

Right?

Wrong, did you read the rest of his post or just the part that you quoted?

Yes, I did. He equated the "pressure to survive" with the sentient element of selective breeding (as I read it.)

In other words, as I read him, he is saying the "survival of the species " element performs the same function as a sentient dog breeder.

Tho I find it interesting even he couldn't keep from using the word "created."

Eliments of nature and environment can promote genetic variance. There is no point in arguing this with you if you continue to be incredulous about the subject.

Then why are you here?

You don't want to understant evolution. You want to disprove it.

This is known as falsification, and is a legitimate, and dare I say ESSENTIAL, element of all scientific analysis and learning.

Only the religionist would fear it.

But this is NOT a religious thread.

Posted: 8/13/2005 6:36:33 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Eliments of nature and environment can promote genetic variance. .

Yes, but only in a comparatively scattered and haphazard manner. And always with a LOSS of genetic info.

I would equate the likelihood of natural selection producing my jack russell (with her specific traits and abilities) about as likely as the Craftsmen tool inventory at Sears creating a 2005 Ford Mustang out of the inventory of the local Advance Auto parts.

I guess my real question is this -

How does natural selection perform the same function a dog breeder does?

Posted: 8/13/2005 6:38:48 PM EDT

[#23]

The simple fact is different breeds of dogs do not represent 'speciation'. Barring physical size extremes, all dogs can breed with each other.

Take all of your highly refined breeds of dogs and throw them together back into the wild and within three or four generations, you will have the original mangy yellow dog that constituted the original cannis domesticanis our ancestors threw scraps of meat to by the ancient campfires.

Geenes are being shifted and tortured but they are all still present and can be exchanged thru breeding and the dominant traits will re-assert themselves quickly.

Posted: 8/13/2005 6:40:49 PM EDT

[#24]

It seems to me that the real question is when, if ever, selective breeding (or eugenics or whatever you want to call it) will produce a new species - fertile animals or plants which if bred with members of the "parent" species will not produce fertile offspring. AFAIK, it's never been seen to happen through natural or artifical selection. I think that everything demonstrable about the process of genetic selection is just a repeat of what farmers have done for centuries: you breed fat boars to fat sows and you get fat shoats which turn into fat boars and sows. However, they're still pigs. Breed 'em with a skinny pig, and you'll get pigs. When somebody breeds pigs to the point that they get owls, ponies, or rutabagas, it'll be worth noticing.

Posted: 8/13/2005 6:54:23 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
selective breeding is what gave us all the differant type of dogs and cat and other animals.

We also breed plants.

But I don't believe you actually intend to learn by poisting this thread.

Sgatr15

Here in America, you are free to imagine whatever you like, my good friend.

But in this case the sarge is correct.

Posted: 8/13/2005 6:56:47 PM EDT

[#26]

Breeding has nothing to do with natural selection though it provides evidence of genetics like with Mendel. It allows us to witness the how traits are passed on from parents to offspring which has been used to provide evidence for the science of genetics.

Genetics is not the same as the evolution theory and should not be mistaken as such. I'll say that many of whom discount the evolution theory still believe in the genetic principle as it is so evident in all instances, an almost constant if you will(with the exception of mutations and other uncommon occurances).

Though genetics does not make up all of the evolution theroy, it does play a role in it. It is still unclear how species as a whole change over time as this seems to almost contradict the genetic principle.

So mutation is used as an explanation. But mutation is so usnsytematic and unpredictable and we know so little about it. There is so little that we know and so much that we don't know about the matter.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:00:12 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
selective breeding is what gave us all the differant type of dogs and cat and other animals.

We also breed plants.

But I don't believe you actually intend to learn by poisting this thread.

Sgatr15

Here in America, you are free to imagine whatever you like, my good friend.

But in this case the sarge is correct.

Actually, that's not true.

I learned that natural selection is presumed to have the same function and capability as the sentient dog breeder in masterminding promoting beneficial traits and eliminating defective traits.

(someone feel free to correct me if that is not an accurate statement of the process)

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:05:26 PM EDT

[#28]

I have a cat.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:08:23 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
I have a cat.

Are ya SURE????

It COULD be a transitional cat, that is on its way to becoming an aardvark.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:10:40 PM EDT

[#30]

My cat ate grass and was therefore a transitional cat on the way to becoming felinus dometicus bovinicus.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:12:25 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
My cat ate grass and was therefore a transitional cat on the way to becoming felinus dometicus bovinicus.

QUICK!!!! Breed it with a cow, thereby proving evolution true!!!!!!

Mebbe you'll get one of them cats from "Meet the Parents" -a cat you can milk.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:14:45 PM EDT

[#32]

She went to kitty heaven this past april after 18 years of helping daddy keep the grass nice and trim. Besides, she was fixed at a ripe young age.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:17:28 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
She went to kitty heaven this past april after 18 years of helping daddy keep the grass nice and trim. Besides, she was fixed at a ripe young age.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=7420

Look at that eye! She was a transitional cat on the way to becoming a PIRATE!!!!

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:17:29 PM EDT

[#34]

BTW, a rubber band, a water cooler cup and two staples and you can have your very own kitty dunce cap.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:17:53 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
She went to kitty heaven this past april after 18 years of helping daddy keep the grass nice and trim. Besides, she was fixed at a ripe young age.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=7420

Sorry to hear that.

We lost our Tonk this past March. 19 years. Great cat.

We got our JRT in her place.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:18:28 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
She went to kitty heaven this past april after 18 years of helping daddy keep the grass nice and trim. Besides, she was fixed at a ripe young age.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=7420

Look at that eye! She was a transitional cat on the way to becoming a PIRATE!!!!

\

I don't think glaucoma can be called 'pirates syndrome'.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:18:48 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
BTW, a rubber band, a water cooler cup and two staples and you can have your very own kitty dunce cap.

Got any video of that? Hilarious!!

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:20:53 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
BTW, a rubber band, a water cooler cup and two staples and you can have your very own kitty dunce cap.

Got any video of that? Hilarious!!

No video, she took the cap quite well, she was easy going like that. You can see the cap in the above picture.

Staple the cut rubber band at 10 and 2 o'clock on the cup, not 9 and 3.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:23:10 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Staple the cut rubber band at 10 and 2 o'clock on the cup, not 9 and 3.

Sounds like the "kitty dunce cap" has been subjected to more testing, observation, repeatability and falsification than evolution has.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:33:57 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
She went to kitty heaven this past april after 18 years of helping daddy keep the grass nice and trim. Besides, she was fixed at a ripe young age.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=7420

Sorry to hear that.

We lost our Tonk this past March. 19 years. Great cat.

We got our JRT in her place.

While I am sorry for your loss, IBTL.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:39:07 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
She went to kitty heaven this past april after 18 years of helping daddy keep the grass nice and trim. Besides, she was fixed at a ripe young age.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=7420

Sorry to hear that.

We lost our Tonk this past March. 19 years. Great cat.

We got our JRT in her place.

While I am sorry for your loss, IBTL.

Why would this get locked? (unless someone tries to force this into a religious debate?)

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:43:35 PM EDT

[#42]

Yep, they become family after a while....if they don't destroy the furnture and always use the litter box.

Jinx was an easy going cat who liked to eat grass and law on the window sill and be scratched behind the ears. She was never needy or overly ambitious. In many ways, she was the perfect low maintaince cat. I believe she was mostly a British Shorthair. She showed up in my aunt's and uncles back yard when she was small enough to fit in the palm of my hand back in early spring 1987 and there she stayed for most of the rest of her days and she died laying inside the windowsill of the same house.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:46:42 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
She went to kitty heaven this past april after 18 years of helping daddy keep the grass nice and trim. Besides, she was fixed at a ripe young age.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=7420

Sorry to hear that.

We lost our Tonk this past March. 19 years. Great cat.

We got our JRT in her place.

While I am sorry for your loss, IBTL.

Why would this get locked? (unless someone tries to force this into a religious debate?)

For the mention of an unacceptable racially insensitive phonetic representation of the sound of a physical act.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:50:18 PM EDT

[#44]

Careful folks..this thread is starting to drift off course..

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:50:34 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

For the mention of an unacceptable racially insensitive phonetic representation of the sound of a physical act.

Tonk = Tonkinese cat.

But whatever it is you think I said DOES sound pretty bad.

Ban me - for the children.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:50:48 PM EDT

[#46]

I just wanted to let you guys know that humans don't evolve.

Sure I believe in Darwin's theory and all but...we don't evolve anymore. Society has adopted a strategy where the least desirable specimens reproduce at an astounding rate whilst the creme of the crop often fails to reproduce at all.

We call it welfare, charity, and modern (free) medicine.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:52:26 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Careful folks..this thread is starting to drift off course..

Its evolving....

Back on topic....

Am I correct in saying the general concept of evolutionary speciation is that natural selction somehow performs the same function over millions of years as a dog breeder does over a few years??

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:56:18 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Ban me - for the children.

I wouldn't support that action.

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:57:51 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Careful folks..this thread is starting to drift off course..

Its evolving....

Best on topic comeback ever!

Posted: 8/13/2005 7:58:58 PM EDT

[#50]

Reread my original post. Speciation occurs when interbreeding becomes impossible (or difficult like the horse donkey mule thing).

Dogs can interbreed (even if a chiuwawa needs us to help him with the turkey baster to inseminate a great dane, the dane can deliver healthy chiuwawadanes) therefore they are all still the same species.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Selective breeding and speciation (Page 1 of 4)

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