Posted: 4/5/2017 1:48:18 PM EDT
| I have correctly mounted optics in using one piece mounts on ARs. Using levels and what not. I haven't properly mounted a scope using rings before. This is my first bolt gun using an optic. Is lapping really necessary? I was just going to use the wheeler bubble system. School me up |
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I have correctly mounted optics in using one piece mounts on ARs. Using levels and what not. I haven't properly mounted a scope using rings before. This is my first bolt gun using an optic. Is lapping really necessary? I was just going to use the wheeler bubble system. School me up For crappy rings, it can help, for quality rings, like Badger Ordnance, it can void your warranty. I don't lap my rings and I have 8 scopes mounted with decent stuff. I do take some 3/4" 3M Scotch brand tape and line all of them, then trim the excess away with an Xacto knife. Keeps the scope free of ring marks and cushions things a bit more. Chris |
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This is what I am mounting to. https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/26543-DEFAULT-l.jpg I am using burris XTR rings I would say that if you just try the tape method (or not) and don't lap your rings, you'll be fine, but I'm not there doing acute measurements on things. Chris |
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This is what I am mounting to. https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/26543-DEFAULT-l.jpg I am using burris XTR rings |
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If you have good parts AND bed your base to the reciever then probably no need to lap.
You can buy the best base and rings known to man but screw them to an uneven receiver and the rings won't be aligned. When you place the scope see that it moves in the rings freely, look carfully for burrs etc. |
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I've mounted 4 or 5 of my own Scopes and probably dozens for other people. I don't even own tools to lap. Use a piece of tape and alignment rods and you are good to go.
Center your reticle adjustments both directions and bore sight. If you don't have to adjust much you should be good. If it's off, you can try swapping positions with the rings or simply rotating 180*. I've never had to do anything more than that. |
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I've mounted 4 or 5 of my own Scopes and probably dozens for other people. I don't even own tools to lap. Use a piece of tape and alignment rods and you are good to go. Center your reticle adjustments both directions and bore sight. If you don't have to adjust much you should be good. If it's off, you can try swapping positions with the rings or simply rotating 180*. I've never had to do anything more than that. |
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I've mounted 4 or 5 of my own Scopes and probably dozens for other people. I don't even own tools to lap. Use a piece of tape and alignment rods and you are good to go. Center your reticle adjustments both directions and bore sight. If you don't have to adjust much you should be good. If it's off, you can try swapping positions with the rings or simply rotating 180*. I've never had to do anything more than that. 
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Are the alignment rods a must? On an 'in-spec' Picatinny rail and rings, I don't think that you'll benefit, but you might have a flair up of OCD, so you might as well do everything, so you can sleep better at night. Now misdrilled action holes are a real deal and I have my Savage 10FP LE2b .308 tactical rifle with misdrilled holes and I've had to shim one of the rings, to get things back on course vis-a-vis windage. I could have sent it back, but ehhh.... 
It shoots well enough. Chris |
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If you do the one shot, clean barrel, repeat 10X, two shots, clean barrel 10X type of barrel break in maybe, if not go ahead. About the only thing you may want to do us use a rig to make sure the rings are aligned correctly. https://op1.ec.tc/978-550-ffffff/opplanet-wheeler-scope-ring-alignment-lapping-kit-305172.jpg |
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I was going to try to follow this video from Vortex and see how it goes. Does that sound reasonable? I am not sure how good the video is being that I haven't done this correctly before
Vortex video on how to correctly mount a scope |
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Seams like half say yes and the other say no. I don't want to pay somebody to do this for me, but I don't want to pay for the entire wheeler mounting rig. This is my only bolt gun. What should I torque the screws at? 30 inch pounds? I've never lapped but have no 2 piece mounts for exactly that reason. I'm also that last person who would claim to be an expert on the subject. I have done all of mine the same way you are. (learn as I go and farming it out not an option.) I can claim several of those setups consistently ding steel at 500 + yds. Edit: my wrench is set to 30 from my last mount. 
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Yep. 3M Scotch tape, the opaque stuff. Old timers' trick and no ring marks. All my rings are taped and torqued properly. Chris Quoted:
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Wow guys. Tape, really? A.W.D. Old timers' trick and no ring marks. All my rings are taped and torqued properly. Chris Never found a need for it myself, or heard of it, and haven't had any scopes moves in their rings/mounts, nor had any ring marks. As well, dimensionally speaking rings and mounts are not designed to account for tape of unknown and varying thicknesses. ETA, with incredible wit and humor: Seems pretty hokey. A.W.D. |
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I was going to try to follow this video from Vortex and see how it goes. Does that sound reasonable? I am not sure how good the video is being that I haven't done this correctly before Vortex video on how to correctly mount a scope The bottom of the scope is square and the top of the picatinny rail is square. Just insert the adequate number of feeler gauge 'leaves' to fill the space between the bottom of the scope and the picatinny rail. You're scope will be squared to the picatinny and unless the picatinny rail is kitty-wampus, You'll be good to go. 
Remember, it's inch pounds...not foot pounds. 
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Given the fact that the rifle as all that picatinny real estate, he went to a bunch of trouble leveling the rifle then leveling the scope 'to the rifle'. The bottom of the scope is square and the top of the picatinny rail is square. Just insert the adequate number of feeler gauge 'leaves' to fill the space between the bottom of the scope and the picatinny rail. You're scope will be squared to the picatinny and unless the picatinny rail is kitty-wampus, You'll be good to go. Remember, it's inch pounds...not foot pounds. |
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This is what I am mounting to. https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/26543-DEFAULT-l.jpg I am using burris XTR rings 
ETA: I shoot long range for a M.O.M (minute of man), so I dont care about M.O.P (minute of proton). So I would not lap anything.......thats just me. If I can gong steel at 1K yards, I am pretty content
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Is the video wrong in some way Quoted:
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No. It's not rocket science. Get a torque wrench like the FatWrench from Wheeler, or a Borka, if you have some extra cash, get some removable LocTite (blue stuff), get some isopropyl alcohol, or degreaser, some Q-Tips and degrease all of your tapped holes on your ring caps and the action holes. Degrease the screws as well and let dry. Follow the instructions first for the rail and tighten things to the proper level. Then you can mount the lower rings to the rail. Aluminum ring caps have lower torque specs than steel, but things vary by manufacturer. A problem you might have is just centering the reticle, but that's just 'trial and error' and might take a few tries unless you're suffering from the DTs. According to Wheeler Engineering's pamphlet in their Deluxe Gun Screwdriver kits: "We called every manufacturer of rifle and scope accessories to get their input, and then tested those inputs on our own rifles and the rifles of our willing friends. Our recommendations for torque are listed below." Base screws: 30 inch-lbs. Ring screws, aluminum: 10-15 inch-lbs. Ring screws, steel: 15-20 inch-lbs. Wood, fiberglass or synthetic stock w/o bedding pillars: 40 inch-lbs. Above with bedding pillars: 65 inch-lbs. Hard use service type rifles and synthetic stocks w/pillars: 65 inch-lbs. Current specs for LEO and Military rifles are 65 inch-lbs on each of the guard screws. I believe the ring lug nuts get torqued to 30-40 inch-lbs, but it's been a while. Chris |
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Seemed odd to me. Never found a need for it myself, or heard of it, and haven't had any scopes moves in their rings/mounts, nor had any ring marks. As well, dimensionally speaking rings and mounts are not designed to account for tape of unknown and varying thicknesses. ETA, with incredible wit and humor: Seems pretty hokey. A.W.D. Quoted:
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Wow guys. Tape, really? A.W.D. Old timers' trick and no ring marks. All my rings are taped and torqued properly. Chris Never found a need for it myself, or heard of it, and haven't had any scopes moves in their rings/mounts, nor had any ring marks. As well, dimensionally speaking rings and mounts are not designed to account for tape of unknown and varying thicknesses. ETA, with incredible wit and humor: Seems pretty hokey. A.W.D. Well, there are tolerances built into most things and rings are no different, but regardless, it works for me and it's not my first rodeo. Since it's free, you should try it sometime and it's easily reversible. Chris |
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If you use good quality rings and are mounting to a picatinny rail then I would say lapping is not required. If the rings are being mounted directly to the receiver, and there is misalignment in the mounting points, then I would lap. |
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This is what I am mounting to. https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/26543-DEFAULT-l.jpg I am using burris XTR rings |
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If using a single piece rail and vertically split rings like Warne's, then lapping isn't necessary.
If using two separate horizontally split rings mounted on a bolt gun receiver, then it all depends on the alignment. It has nothing to do with the quality of the rings, you simply may not be able to get an alignment that is perfect or even good enough. Those pointy alignment rods aren't going to allow you to detect a slight misalignment. The rings could be way out in more than one direction and the points would still touch. Alignment can off in horizontal offset, vertical offset, horizontal angular, vertical angular and various combinations. Alignment rods like those made by Kokopelli will allow you to detect the smallest misalignment and possibly correct by adjusting the scope rings within the screw hole clearance. http://www.kokopelliproducts.com. 
Since the Kokopelli scope bars are flat on the end and not pointy, you can detect offset misalignment and angular misalignment easily. The photo above shows that the rings have a vertical angular misalignment. I was able to use the scope bars to remove most of the misalignment but not all of it. I then used the lapping bar that came in the kit to lap the rings (kokopelli sells kits that have both the scope alignment bars and the lapping bar along with the lapping compound). You can lap a bit then recheck with the scope bars until the misalignment is gone. The top halves of the rings showed little evidence of lapping since the screw clearance allows the top halves to self align and mate to the scope. Lapping will void the warranty of the rings, but big deal. Your rings will fit your scope properly instead of trying to bend it or not fit it properly. If your rings are marring your scope, that's probably because they are misaligned. They could also be slightly undersized compared to the scope. The lapped rings have caused no marring on my scope. Are you able to get away without lapping? I am sure many do. It all depends on whether the initial alignment is good enough that the scope is unaffected and there is no way to determine that but to try it out and see. I do not know if the misalignment that was left before lapping would have been enough to cause problems. But I have had problems with a scope and/or mounting issues that would not hold a zero. By aligning and lapping the rings on my bolt gun, I had no problems. The process was easy to do and enjoyable. Much more enjoyable than being bewildered why a rifle won't hold zero. |
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I like to read a lot and I'm often surprised at the new things I pick up and learn. Well, there are tolerances built into most things and rings are no different, but regardless, it works for me and it's not my first rodeo. Since it's free, you should try it sometime and it's easily reversible. Chris Thanks, and good tip I suppose, but just not for me or the parts I use. A.W.D. |
| I have one of the wheeler scope mounting kits and it seems to work well enough. You're welcome to borrow it if you wanna pay shipping from east TN to wherever you are and back. I've never had to lap quality rings but I always use the kit to check alignment anyway. |
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IF, you have ring misalignment and go ahead and clamp the scope in place,
you are putting stress into the scope body that can cause problems. A Leupold tech told me that that is a pretty good percentage of returns for service. I lap, I don't use vertically split rings because you can't lap. On two piece bases I don't use alignment rods, I clamp the lapping rod in tight, and then beat on the rod with a rubber mallet. This aligns the bases and rings as well as they can be, lapping takes out the rest. Or just use Burris rings with the inserts and not bother. |
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Are the alignment rods a must? Quoted:
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I've mounted 4 or 5 of my own Scopes and probably dozens for other people. I don't even own tools to lap. Use a piece of tape and alignment rods and you are good to go. Center your reticle adjustments both directions and bore sight. If you don't have to adjust much you should be good. If it's off, you can try swapping positions with the rings or simply rotating 180*. I've never had to do anything more than that. I have mounted probably half a dozen different scope/rifle combinations in the past year or so, and as long as I was mounting rings to a one piece base lapping or alignment weren't necessary. |
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Hi Gentlemen, What would you recommend to mount a scope to a bolt gun that is drilled/tapped like a Remington 700? I have no idea what to use. |
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I bought some Badger rings for my 308 AR recently (i hate how heavy all 1 piece mounts are), and i noticed that rotating the scope sideways im only getting 1/8th contact on either ring. In fact my scope is pretty scratched to fuck because of these rings now. Yes, i pushed them forward while torquing. "But badger are the best!" yeah, looks like youre all wrong, these are trash.
Im gonna lap as soon as i can swallow the price on the wheeler kit. I might get into boltguns in some years, so i suppose i can justify it. |
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I bought some Badger rings for my 308 AR recently (i hate how heavy all 1 piece mounts are), and i noticed that rotating the scope sideways im only getting 1/8th contact on either ring. In fact my scope is pretty scratched to fuck because of these rings now. Yes, i pushed them forward while torquing. "But badger are the best!" yeah, looks like youre all wrong, these are trash. Im gonna lap as soon as i can swallow the price on the wheeler kit. I might get into boltguns in some years, so i suppose i can justify it. I've only got a Badger 20MOA rail for a Savage bolt gun, but either the rings are woefully out of spec, your integral top rail was jacked up by monkeys or there's something wrong with your scope tube. Either way, I wouldn't have scratched up my pimpy optics by forcing things. Chris |
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Did you buy fake shit bro? I've only got a Badger 20MOA rail for a Savage bolt gun, but either the rings are woefully out of spec, your integral top rail was jacked up by monkeys or there's something wrong with your scope tube. Either way, I wouldn't have scratched up my pimpy optics by forcing things. Chris I had an Aero 1 piece mount for my vortex scope on this exact upper, and when i took it off there was PERFECT contact on the scope. I know this cause of the very thin cerakote dust/residue all over it. Anyways, i ditched it because the screws kept backing out. This isolates it to rings that suck. |
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I bought this set from a store in person that makes custom $5000 bolt guns. These are serialized too, im pretty sure theyre "real". I had an Aero 1 piece mount for my vortex scope on this exact upper, and when i took it off there was PERFECT contact on the scope. I know this cause of the very thin cerakote dust/residue all over it. Anyways, i ditched it because the screws kept backing out. This isolates it to rings that suck. To be frank, Badger Ordnance has been making pimpy .mil type Tier 1 shit well before many of these current companies were even in business. Even Mercedes makes a lemon from time to time. Chis |
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I bought this set from a store in person that makes custom $5000 bolt guns. These are serialized too, im pretty sure theyre "real". I had an Aero 1 piece mount for my vortex scope on this exact upper, and when i took it off there was PERFECT contact on the scope. I know this cause of the very thin cerakote dust/residue all over it. Anyways, i ditched it because the screws kept backing out. This isolates it to rings that suck. Couple that with an extremely slight angular misalignment having a much larger effect on fit and it is not possible for anyone to make a set of rings that will give you 80% contact everytime. This is were lapping comes in. When you lap something, you are removing very small amounts of material at only the places where it needs to be removed after everything is installed. This allows you to achieve a high degree of perfection on parts that are assembled to a rifle. There is a limit as to what a manufacturer of two part rings that are separately assembled to rails or separately screwed to a receiver and barrel can do. Separate pieces that are assembled require skill and knowledge on the part of the assembler. Part of the skill and knowledge requires tools to check alignment and a lapping bar to fix what can't be solved by alignment. A one piece ring and base where everything is machined at one time at the factory will eliminate or dramatically reduce problems with alignment. |
| Put your rings on , tighten down bottom mounts, lay your scope in the bottom rings, check for a higher or lower mount by pressing down the middle of the scope, if you have a higher mount with the scope sitting flush on that mount, you will be able to see the small amount of clearance on the low mount, scotch tape, lay a strip of it on the low mount, sometimes it takes 2 strips. Backwoods way of doing it but it works good. |