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Posted: 6/26/2012 6:22:33 AM EDT
I picked up a 2002 Saturn SL1 recently, and went to take it in for emissions, and it failed with code P0410 Secondary Air Injection.  I checked out the air pump, the relay, the hoses, vaccum lines to the intake manifold, the check valve, solenoid, etc, and I get air blowing when the engine starts through the valve (disconnected it from the tube that feeds into the exhaust manifold).  Pull the battery to clear the PCM, and it comes back after a few miles and starts.



I have no other error codes - I'm starting to wonder if the O2 sensors might be going (again, no other codes), or if the air passages in the manifold might be clogged?


 
Link Posted: 6/26/2012 6:16:28 PM EDT
Shop cleaned the exhaust manifold holes according to the tech.  When I drove off, SES light was off, and ran over to the emissions facility.  Guy did his thing, and told me it didn't have enough miles after a reset to pass.  Drove home, let it cool down, then just drove it around the block a few minutes ago - light is back on.  I'll swing by AutoZone or something in the morning to try and read the code.  Starting to think of picking up a basic ODBII reader to have in my bag of tricks is not a bad idea.
 
Link Posted: 6/26/2012 6:29:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2012 6:30:18 PM EDT by RhinelandArms]
I thought P0410 was actually not enough O2 in the catalytic converter-usually because of a problem with the air pump system. However it also means that usually the oz sensors are working correctly, that was my understanding.

Maybe its the check valves, do you have a way to check them, I have no clue how to. Mine has one per bank (v8)

Also, I think you can test the air system by resetting the codes once the car is hot and then starting/stopping the car several times and if it does not come on its something to do with the air system. I have been told the air pump comes on for only a minute or so when the engine is cold, thats when it throughs the codes?

Mine was showing a P0410 and then after a while(not sure of the time frame) I got a Po420 and the pump burned up taking the fuze with it.
Link Posted: 6/27/2012 5:59:44 AM EDT





Originally Posted By RhinelandArms:



I thought P0410 was actually not enough O2 in the catalytic converter-usually because of a problem with the air pump system. However it also means that usually the oz sensors are working correctly, that was my understanding.





Maybe its the check valves, do you have a way to check them, I have no clue how to. Mine has one per bank (v8)





Also, I think you can test the air system by resetting the codes once the car is hot and then starting/stopping the car several times and if it does not come on its something to do with the air system. I have been told the air pump comes on for only a minute or so when the engine is cold, thats when it throughs the codes?





Mine was showing a P0410 and then after a while(not sure of the time frame) I got a Po420 and the pump burned up taking the fuze with it.



Hm, not sure how I can test the check valve on the vac side.  I can reset it, but it takes a few miles (I tried starting it up and shutting it off a few times, it didn't come back, but when I went for emissions they told me it had not done enough miles since the last reset).  Drove for a bit, and the light came back, same code.





From the Saturn forums I've read through, the pump comes on every time you start the car for 15-60 seconds, depending on engine temp.  It seems to make sense because I can hear it run for a moment or more every time I start the car - cold or not.





I'm taking it back after my morning meetings.  They told me over the phone they pulled a lot of carbon out of the air tube/manifold port using brake cleaner and a brush, and had better readings when they watched using their scanner, but I guess it's still not enough - might need to pull the manifold and clean that out too.




 
 
Link Posted: 6/28/2012 11:20:08 AM EDT
Car is still at the shop.  They cleaned more of the port out yesterday, and replaced one of the O2 sensors.  Said they are getting a much better reading, and they're taking it through a few warm up/cool down cycles to make sure it's completely fixed.  Hope they finish soonish - the emissions place closes at 5:30, and I dunno if my boss will let me work from home another day.
 
Link Posted: 6/28/2012 11:30:28 AM EDT
I was thinking about this. The Air Check Valves operate (or open) by the use of a vacuum controlled soliniod, at least on my GM car. I have heard of a couple cases were those solenoids go bad due to vac leak and thus while the Air Pump is working the air can not get into the header and you end up with a lack of 02 in the cat setting off the P0410 code.
Link Posted: 6/28/2012 11:35:52 AM EDT



Originally Posted By RhinelandArms:


I was thinking about this. The Air Check Valves operate (or open) by the use of a vacuum controlled soliniod, at least on my GM car. I have heard of a couple cases were those solenoids go bad due to vac leak and thus while the Air Pump is working the air can not get into the header and you end up with a lack of 02 in the cat setting off the P0410 code.


Correct.  I tested mine my starting up the car - fan would turn on, and I had left the vac line disconnected - no air flow.  Reconnected the vac line, and the solenoid kicked open, and passed air.  The techs told me they could see the change in O2 sensor reading (both before and after the swap), and with the old sensor, could see a change in the reading when the pump ran, but not very much.  New sensor sees a much wider change from their description.



 
Link Posted: 6/29/2012 6:05:39 PM EDT
My s10 had the same issue first it was the selenoid by the motor, then the air pump was blowing out but not enough of it. I ended up taking it off every six minths and oiling it because water killed it and would seize. Eventually i found a brand new delco air pump and selenoid on ebay for$50 and fixed it. So even if it is blowing air it may not be hitting full speed. I always got an engine code for it on the first 85 degree day of the year. My mileage took  4mpg hit then also.
Link Posted: 6/30/2012 7:31:04 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Jerret_S:


My s10 had the same issue first it was the selenoid by the motor, then the air pump was blowing out but not enough of it. I ended up taking it off every six minths and oiling it because water killed it and would seize. Eventually i found a brand new delco air pump and selenoid on ebay for$50 and fixed it. So even if it is blowing air it may not be hitting full speed. I always got an engine code for it on the first 85 degree day of the year. My mileage took  4mpg hit then also.


Good to know.  There's a couple folks on the Saturn forums who have suggested that the ECTS (Engine Coolant Temp Sensor) may also be a component to the error.  If the manifold cleaning doesn't knock it out, I'll go down the next paths and see where it gets me.  I'm just hoping it doesn't kill me in labor hours in the process



 
Link Posted: 6/30/2012 6:41:17 PM EDT
I've seen a number of Mercedes that fail due to the oxygen sensor failing to read low enough during the test activation.  

It CANNOT see the flow during the cold start when the pump is used for emissions control. To test the system It waits unil the car is warm, then activates the pump and checks to see the oxygen sensor voltage drop.  On a benz, its looking for less than .040v.  I've seen them hang around 60+ and fail.  New sensor fixes it.  I currently have a high mileage car that seems to have an intermittent issue due to carbon build up in the cylinder head.  I'm not familiar with the Saturn set up, but carbon build up will restrict air flow and the sensor won't read low  enough then either.  
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