Agreed

The range overmatch is actually one of three phases of excuses. The earliest proposal was a 7.62 NATO plastic M14, justified as "stopping power" to replace M855 greentips (during the Iraq period) and the last was rationalized as armor pen (which was cited as level 3, maybe even 2 IIRC in Congressional interviews) when the end of GWOT came into view.

There's no coherent thought behind NGSW. Its credit rose and fell over time until it hooked into Mattis' squad focus push and finally caught.

Someone in a previous thread speculated that the real reason for this is that the Army expects wheeled/walking robot-drones to become more commonplace on the battlefield, and a larger caliber was needed to defeat those.

Turn on the TV.

The weight a Soldier carries needs to be HE.

They have innovative designs... and hookers that can suck the chrome off a trailer hitch.

Anyone else feel like an improved scar 17 would have been a better option?

maybe with a better stock, aluminum lower, and new caliber

seems like this is an awkward combination of ar15 and new gun

No. I'm fine with the idea of the sig. I just think the program will be killed off before any significant numbers are issued.

Yeah, I've been wondering this for a while as well. That, and/or new lighter weight lvl 4 armor tech, like plates made from easily shaped polymer that could offer more protection. Imagine something approaching scifi storm trooper armor or riot gear that can stop rifle rounds. Land warrior coming to fruition?

Or maybe they're expecting China to come out with knockoff power armor suits .

That is complete BS. All of that land was part of Pease and given to the state for redevelopment years ago. SIG just moved down there a couple years ago, they didn't own crap.

especially right now while none of our allies are adopting it.

So, what’s old is new again?
There’s a battle rifle and a medium machine gun, analogous to the M-14 and M-60. They were billed as defeating “any existing body armor” but can’t actually defeat modern NIJ Level IV or equivalent armor. The round has a steel core, and a tungsten core hasn’t even been contemplated. This wouldn’t be practical for mass use anyway. The entire argument for these rifles rests on your opponent using arguably outdated Level III armor. Shooting precisely at the body’s unarmored areas will be harder since increased recoil will cause soldiers with limited live fire training to flinch more. Much of their training is done with blanks, which isn’t exactly conducive to marksmanship.

(correction: they have budgeted for a tungsten core round but it doesn’t appear that any have been built. It would have a shorter level iv penetration range than M993 [very short] given a smaller penetrator. XSAPI or equivalent will stop it at the muzzle)

One could make an argument that the battle rifle will offer increased effective range over current assault rifles. However, the new weapons are going to be issued mostly with 1-6x Sig Tango scopes, with 1-8x Vortex XM157s for designated marksmen. With optical capabilities comparable to your run-of-the-mill AR-15, they’ve somewhat negated the potential range benefits. The ballistic computer in the XM157 is interesting, but it’ll only really help at distances where the 8x30 scope’s observation capabilities are limited. Shooting high contrast targets at mid-long range is much easier than shooting people who are running around, hiding and firing back.

There’s also the attendant increases in weight, expense per shot (which will lead to reduced marksmanship training) and muzzle flash. Even with a silencer, these will be flashier than an equivalent 5.56 or .308. Then, there’s the decreased ammo carrying capacity, full auto accuracy and barrel life. The latter issue will further decrease marksmanship training. US small arms will be completely unable to share ammo with allies I hope the USA doesn’t also try to bully NATO states into adopting battle rifles like they did during the early Cold War.

The 249/Minimi may be a problem for many people, but that’s no reason to throw out the 5.56x45mm cartridge. Plenty of great LMGs available in that caliber. If they want to increase effective range efficiently, they should introduce those new .338 Norma Mag guns with appropriate scopes, to serve alongside the M4 instead of replacing it.

The F-35 is probably the world’s best fighter-bomber. The XM5, if actually issued en masse, would be well below the AK-74, QBZ-191 and M4A1 in effectiveness as a fighting rifle.

It's dumb as hell.

Both of those are hideous.

GD hates everything

That SIG machine gun you label as a medium machine gun is 5 pounds lighter than an M249 saw. with twice the effective range  and a recoiling barrel that mitigates felt recoil. I would love to see this caliber replace 762 nato in the SDMRs and 556 in the SAWs, 2 SDMRs that can reach out and defeat armor further and more effectively than 7.62 nato and 2 of these M250s laying down hate increases the fire power of a squad significantly. I don't think M4s are ever going away personally.

and take those 338 Norma GPMGs and replace the 240s in weapons squad and we've got a ground force that won't need new individual weapons until directed energy weapons are real. and a machine gun in weapons platoon that can outrange a .50 cal for accurate fire if not terminal energy.

From the 2020 budget:



There is a GP and an SP (aka AP) round.

Source for above:
Dtic link

We have to take into consideration that this is the same army that spent 5 billion on a worthless camo pattern. Whether this ever sees the light of day should be taken with a grain of salt

Yup pretty much this . Makes me wonder how Col. Mortlock made from that fiasco lol

It's definitely going to be fielded - no doubt about that.

The question is, how much will it be fielded?

Is it going to a few select units only? Front line troops only? Or will it replace all M4s entirely across all branches and all units?

That's what I'm curious about.

I'm just here for all the surplus 5.56mm.....

How does Sigs stock price keep going down with all of these contracts

Until it comes time to pay for practice ammo, then they will give each soldier 20 rounds per year.

SIG is not a public company

Tesla electric pack mules in FDE/Taupe will carry the heavy shit.

What does this do better than current small arms other than penetrate body armor more easily?

Seems like a lot of money just for that one improvement.

If this thing were a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range where a single mag has 3000 rounds while being the same size as current weapons, no ballistic drop over long range, etc…yes that would be worth writing a big check for.

Take a look at how the case head fits together, it’s surprisingly sturdy.

Tolerance stacking shouldn’t be an issue with modern manufacturing, I’d think. But that’ll all depend on how well lake city adapts to the design, I reckon.

I still think it has something to do with a recent development in polymer tech, some kind of plastic stronger than steel, yet half the weight. It’d supposedly allow for rifle plates that conform to the body, with much greater Lv 4 coverage, and less weight. Arf had a thread about it some time ago.

Even with the M250 being lighter, i still dont think it can replace the M249's capability easily. There's still the weight and bulk of the ammo itself. The present day automatic rifleman can carry a M249 and 1000 rounds on their person/assault pack (I did it in AFG in 2011-2012); that will be so much harder with the M250.

The M250 would be a great replacement for the 240; it would be almost all upside.

Overall, i think this project was doomed from the start when the army chose a heavy 6.8 projectile to issue requirements around. Its too big and requires too much gunpowder to get going at the velocity they are asking for. If they could scale this projectile down, then something like a 6mm valkyrie "fury" (i like the smaller case diameter of SPC/valkyrie over grendel/6mm ARC) would be great.

I still wish we were in the XM8 timeline the world would be a whole lot cooler if every army was running around looking like a bunch of extras off Starship Troopers

Let’s be realistic. You’ll carry everything you carried before and the mule will carry more, then the mule will break and you’ll have to carry its load and it back.

The machinegun is slick and would be useful. The fact that you can’t use that caliber in existing guns is a huge hurdle to get over.

The rifle…meh. Box fed rifle calibers are meh.

It doesn’t make any sense that they tied ammo procurement to the rifle procurement. It should have separated like the optic component was and conducted first. The TV ammo would easily have beaten the steel/brass hybrid; then the rifle part would have been who can make the best platform for the TV ammo.

Gadzooks, 80kpsi chamber pressure?

How often does the Army plan on replacing barrels?

Just gonna toss this out there, but I don't believe we will be seeing a lot of their hybrid ammo being used. There will be something different that hasn't been seen yet.

Yes, that's true.



Hating the new firearms and adopting the new firearms service wide are two different things though.  The SCAR-H was a supplemental weapon, not a replacement.  That's how this shit should be.  Replacement is not necessary.

All you need to do with the Russians is keep slowly backing up....their logistics will fall apart and most of the soldiers will either be lost or starving by the time the actual fighting starts.

It looks like the Kalashnikov will outlast the M16/M4 after all.

It will move forward. Amid great wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

This.

Even if it moves forward it'll be limited to a few specific units.

You forgot barrels 'burned out' after ~1500 rounds, AD's when dropped, recalls, production "updates" every 3 months and eventually being discontinued / no longer supported after 3 years.

20.4 million contract so it’s not replacing M4’s anytime soon.

Probably too big to fail at this point…..remember, this is the same service that fielded ACUs

I will buy the worthless m855a1 round all day at 10 cents each.

How much does each round weigh?  Do you have a postal scale?

@GraniteStateMike

20 million "for testing and eval". Will be another massive boondoggle where pockets are greased. Move along.