Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/11/2002 6:50:46 PM EDT
I am thinking about what would be the cheapest way to enter the Class 3 market. I was thinking the cheapest would be to just file a Form 1 and convert either my AR to an SBR or my Shotgun to an SBS. There are a few issues I need to clear up first. The first is AL from what I hear bans SBRs and SBSs. The range I usually use is in Robersdale just over the line, so I'd have to shoot at my local range. Does anybody know exactly what is invloved with this law in AL. The second issue is I would like to when I can save up the money, buy an RDIAS to convert that Rifle to a MG. What is invloved later on with using the RDIAS in an SBR.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 7:07:23 PM EDT
The ONLY, and I MEAN the ONLY, way for you to get into a legal Class III gun is to purchase a fully registered, taxed, and transferrable gun, or in the case of an AR, to get a fully registered, taxed, and transferrable drop-in autosear with proper documentation. In the case of AR's, the DIAS is the registered part, but you must identify the serial of the lower receiver it's to be installed in. It is absolutely illegal for you to do any other full auto conversions. If it wasn't made or converted LEGALLY before May 1986, it's not legal to have it, PERIOD. In short, NO NEW MACHINE GUNS CAN BE MADE AFTER MAY, 1986, FOR CIVILIAN USE. If you're a title II manufacturer/class III dealer, you can do such conversions but the result isn't transferrable to civilians. Government and law enforcement customers only can have those. You have to buy a pre-existing registered gun or a pre-existing registered DIAS. No other way to do it legally. CJ
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 7:10:44 PM EDT
You don't understand my question. I was saying that I was considering filing a Form 1 to convert my AR-15 to a Short-Barrel Rifle. But, I am saving up to eventually buy an RDIAS on a Form 4. I wondered if there was any issue with installing an RDIAS in an SBR. BTW, the only NFA Gun that cannot be made on a Form 1 is a Machine Gun.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 7:13:43 PM EDT
I think you may have mixed up some of the Acronyms: SBR = Short Barreled Rifle SBS = Short Barreled Shotgun RDIAS = Registered (I.E. Transferrable) Drop-In Auto Sear MG = Machine Gun
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 7:43:45 PM EDT
OK, I got it now. I did misinterpret your intentions. I read a relevant BATF letter recently on the subject, and the conversion to an SBR removes the subject rifle from the provisions of the assault weapons ban and makes it an NFA item, so this can be legally done to ANY rifle on a form 1, even a post-ban one. (I know, this wasn't exactly your question...wait) There is NO "issue" with installing a registered DIAS into ANY rifle, even an SBR or even a post-ban compliant, post-ban manufactured rifle, or a post-ban SBR conversion. In fact, the installation (with appropriate paperwork) of a registered DIAS in the rifle automatically reclassifies it as an NFA item and you can then change its configuration any way you want to. Drop in the registered DIAS into a brand new post-ban AR and you can then legally add all the 'evil features' that are banned and you can also put on a 10.5 inch machinegun barrel on it as well, if you want to. The class III conversion, if done legally, allows you to do any other conversion on the gun as well. I'm 100 percent sure of it. It's in the BATF letters archive. CJ
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 8:29:34 PM EDT
Please post the link. An SBR is still a Semi-Automatic rifle with a detachable mag and thus falls under the AWB NFA item or not.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 8:47:09 PM EDT
The full list of letters: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/law.html Concerning DIAS conversions in post-ban rifles: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter1.txt Text of this letter: Deaprtment of the Treasury Bureau Of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Washington D.C. 20226 April 7, 1995 E:CE:F:TE:GKD 3311.4 Mr. XXX address address Dear Mr. XXX: This refers to your letter of February 10, 1995, in which you ask whether the installation of a registered AR15 drop-in auto sear into an AR15 type rifle manufactured after the effective date of Title 18 United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 44, Section 922(v)(1) would remove the AR15 rifle from the provisions of Section 922(v)(1). Installation of a registered AR15 drop-in auto sear, along with the necessary M16 trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector and bolt carrier, into a semiautomatic AR15 rifle would remove the subject rifle drom the provisions of Section 922(v)(1), as the firearm would then be a machinegun and not a semiautomatic rifle. At this time, features such as a collapsible stock, separate pistol grip, and threaded muzzle with a flash hider could be installed. Please note that the National Firearms Act Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms must be notified into which firearm you intend to install the drop-in auto sear and the necessary M16 fire control components. Should you later decide to remove the auto sear from the AR15 rifle, the M16 parts installed must be replaced by semiautomatic configuration AR15 type parts, as the presence of M16 fire control compnenents in an AR15 can cause the rifle to operate as a machinegun. Further, a semiautomatic AR15 rifle would have to conform to the provisions of Section 922(v)(1). As a semiautomatic rifle that accepts a detachable magazine, the firearm could have only one of the following features: - a folding or telescoping stock; - a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; - a bayonet mount; - a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accomodate a flash suppressor; - a greande launcher. We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may be of any further assisntace, please contact us. Sincerely yours, [signed] Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief Firearms Technology Branch
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 8:48:48 PM EDT
(continuation of topic) The letter relevant to SBR conversions: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter3.txt Its text: DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Washington, D.C. 20226 MAR 22, 1994 LE:F:FE:RLB 3312.5 Mr XXX Address City, State Dear Mr. XXX: This refers to your letter of February 28, 1994, in which you inquire as to whether the making of certain National Firearm Act (NFA) weapons is prohibited by Title 18 United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 44, Section 922(r). The weapon in question is a FN/FAL type firearm having a barrel length of less than 16 inches which is assembled from an imported British L1A1 parts kit and a domestically manufactured frame or receiver. Title 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 922(r) provides that it shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 925(d)(3), as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. However, the Bureau has previously determined that the lawful making of an NFA weapon would not violate Section 922(r), since the section only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms, and not the making of NFA weapons. Therefore, the lawful making of a short barreled rifle would not be precluded by Section 922(r). If you decide to proceed with your project, it will be necessary for you to obtain prior approval by first submitting an ATF Form 1 (Application To Make and Register a Firearm) and paying the appropriate $200 making tax. Additional information relative to this procedure may be obtained from the following source: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms NFA Branch, Room 5300 650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW Washington DC 20026 We trust that the foregoing was responsive to your inquiry. If we may be of any further assistance, please contact us. Sincerely yours, [signed] Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 8:59:21 PM EDT
922(r) and 922(v) are 2 different Beasts. Unfortunately, as previously stated an SBR is still subject to 922(v) or the 1994 AW Ban. It is not subject to 922(r) or the 1989 Import Ban. For example, I could shorten an FAL Barrel on a Form 1 and not have to have any US Parts. I guess it shouldn't be a problem converting an SBR to a MG by using an RDIAS. Would that allow me to remove the DIAS and M16 Parts, but leave the Short Barrel if I so chose. I.E. it would be classified as both a Machine Gun and a Short-Barrel Rifle, or would it loose SBR status as soon as the DIAS is installed ?
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 9:04:45 PM EDT
That would be a 'double stamp' situation if you wanted to retain SBR status after removing the autosear. You'd have to have two tax stamps totalling 400 dollars for this configuration. There is another letter that I didn't find on this website I pointed out that specifically addressed the 'evil features' on an SBR conversion. The determination was that an SBR is an NFA item and is not an assault weapon and therefore is not subject to the provisions of 922(v) and I will dig it up for your consideration. In one simple sentence, though, the answer is this: An NFA weapon (SBR) is not an assault rifle and is not subject to the provisions of 922(v). CJ
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 9:34:28 PM EDT
We'd all be interested in seeing that letter, if it exists, because the Q&A section of the FFL green book clearly states that an SBR is subject to both NFA restrictions and 922(v)...
(O6) If an NFA firearm has 2 or more of the features specified in the law for semiautomatic assault weapons, will the firearm be regulated under both statutes? Any firearm that falls within the definition of "semiautomatic assault weapon" and the NFA definition of "firearm" is subject to both laws.
View Quote
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 9:41:31 PM EDT
Now I've GOT to scrape that letter up! I want to see if they're inconsistent or I've got a bad memory. I have seen, though, that they can be inconsistent. I've seen letters regarding Gatling guns and M134 Vulcans and two of them directly contradict each other on whether an M143 is even a firearm! One says no, the other says yes. CJ
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 10:27:06 PM EDT
You just have a bad/hopefull memory. NFA registration alone does not alleviate the post 94 semi assault weapons bans.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 10:58:38 PM EDT
OK, I have one more issue. Are NFA guns on a Form 20 protected when moving through an NFA-Unfriendly state. For example, in a few months I might be heading out to Nevada (Not Sure Yet) and I might have to pass through the People's Republik of Kalifornia (Banish The Thought). Would passing through with an ultimate destination of Nevada be protected in the same way as any other firearm. I.E. locked in the trunk away from ammunition. But, Ihave a pickup truck. So, if I have the gun locked in one box and ammo. in the other I should be fine. My other issue is the Form 1 itself. I want to know if under the legth boxes (4e & 4f) I should put the current length or proposed length. Also, what exactly does 3a mean by "Trade Name". Final question is. If I decide to make a Sawed-Off Shotgun sometime, is 4b listed as Short Barrel Shotgun or Sawed-Off Shotgun. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 5:56:16 AM EDT
OK Just for clarification. If a rifle is banned from importation say an AUG. If it is registered as an SBR than It can be built from a kit with all or some foreign parts legally as long as it complies with the 94 AWB. Am I reading this correctly?
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 8:09:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: There is another letter that I didn't find on this website I pointed out that specifically addressed the 'evil features' on an SBR conversion. The determination was that an SBR is an NFA item and is not an assault weapon and therefore is not subject to the provisions of 922(v) and I will dig it up for your consideration.
View Quote
I'd like to see it as well. I don't think it exists, or at least states what you claim. It is clear to me based on my research that the provisions of 922(v) still apply to an SBR per a Form 1. If anyone has ever gotten a Form 1 back from ATF (I have two), they would see that the certification of approval reads: "subject to the provisions of . . . 922(v)"
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: In one simple sentence, though, the answer is this: An NFA weapon (SBR) is not an assault rifle and is not subject to the provisions of 922(v). CJ
View Quote
I wish that were true, I really do. But it's not. cc: why would you want to convert the SBR into a MG per an RDIAS? Since the married reciever to an RDIAS can be pre or post, just use a post-ban reciever. 922(v), unlike with the SBR, does not apply to the married reciever- it can be short and evil. Keep the SBR for it's enhanced value or sell it. Buy a cheap post-ban for your RDIAS. My 2 cents.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 10:49:19 AM EDT
I have searched for that paper that I was pretty sure I read but have not been successful in finding it as of yet, and until I do I will do the prudent thing and say that I was probably wrong. I now formally take the position that a post-ban SBR must still comply with the AW ban unless it is also the subject of a legally installed DIAS. I will maintain that position until I find proof positive of a contrary ruling. CJ
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 10:55:25 AM EDT
SBR has to comply with NFA as far as pre or post ban. I personally would like to the DUMB%*S that dragged the AW CRAP into NFA get slapped around. I went through this when doing my Form-1 in '98. Examiner sent a form wanting to know the present configuration of the rifle. I think I still have this form, can fax to interested parties.
Top Top