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Posted: 11/1/2006 9:56:19 AM EST

Are you in favor, or opposed? Explain politely please.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:07:39 AM EST
Will you define right to work laws for those of us who don't know?
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:08:46 AM EST
First, "Right to Work" laws are frequently misconstrued. Most people seem to believe that "Right to Work" means that you can work wherever you want to, and that they protect you from non-compete agreements. That's not the case.

Right to Work laws mean that if you get hired to work in a place that has been organized by the unions then you do not have to join the Union if you do not want to. In states that are not Right to Work states (like Michigan) you must join the Union if you take a job in a shop that is organized by a Union.

I don't have a problem with Right to Work laws, but I think that there should also be laws eliminating non-compete agreements as well.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:09:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Will you define right to work laws for those of us who don't know?


See above.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:16:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2006 10:20:41 AM EST by Thuban]
Here’s what a Union really is…

A bunch of guys who work in the same industry get together and form a club. Then they all refuse to work and threaten, beat, kill, anyone who isn’t in their club that gets hired to do the job they used to do.

They tell the employer that they will keep it up until he pays them more money, puts rules in that makes it impossible to fire them, and refuses to hire anyone that’s not in their club.

Right to work laws stop unions from making it mandatory to join their pathetic little club to get a job. I’m really in favor of applying anti trust laws to unions and shutting them down. But, in the meantime I support right to work laws.

ETA.

Yes. Non-Compete agreements ought to be banned.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:22:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2006 10:23:06 AM EST by extra_ammo]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
First, "Right to Work" laws are frequently misconstrued. Most people seem to believe that "Right to Work" means that you can work wherever you want to, and that they protect you from non-compete agreements. That's not the case.

Right to Work laws mean that if you get hired to work in a place that has been organized by the unions then you do not have to join the Union if you do not want to. In states that are not Right to Work states (like Michigan) you must join the Union if you take a job in a shop that is organized by a Union.

I don't have a problem with Right to Work laws, but I think that there should also be laws eliminating non-compete agreements as well.


Thank you for being one of two people that know's what the hell the RTW law is. I've tried to tell that to people for years and they just don't understand. They all seem to think they have the "right to have a job" or the "right to quit and still get unemployment" or - and this is from employers, "the right to fire them for anything stupid".

In Florida, there are some union shops, and nursing homes, etc., that frown on non-union workers, but these non-union workers have the... (now say it with me)... THE RIGHT TO WORK without joining the union!!!

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:30:54 AM EST
tag

HH
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:32:12 AM EST
I don't work Union level jobs, so I don't have a dog in this fight
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:32:59 AM EST
They can hire ya, and they can fire ya.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:35:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:36:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2006 10:37:25 AM EST by Paveway_]
You can be fired for any reason. Don't like it, move to china ya commies and take your unions with you
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:39:52 AM EST
Unions were needed way back in the day when employers could force crappy wages and conditions. Thanks to advances by the unions and respect from employers, unions are now obsolete and a thorn in modern industry. Now a lot of unions are just greedy, and in many cases its hard to the job done with so much red tape.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:49:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By Thuban:
Here’s what a Union Companies did before labor organized. . .

A bunch of guys create a corporation. Then they all refuse to acknowledge the bad and unsafe conditions they demand the workers toil in, and the long hours for little pay that they are faced with.

They threaten, beat, kill, anyone who that tries to organize the laborers or demand that better working conditions be instituted.

They tell the employees that they will keep it up until they go back to work, or they will be locked out and other poor slobs hired in their place who are willing, because of economic conditions, to do the work.

Right to work laws stop unions from making it mandatory to join a union shop to get a job. This dilutes the union's ability to bargain for better pay and workplace conditions.

I ’m really in favor of applying anti trust laws to large corporations and shutting them down. But, in the meantime I support unions because I've seen the need for them.

ETA.

Yes. Non-Compete agreements ought to be banned.


There, fixed if for you.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:55:11 AM EST
In favor.

You like the union and their positions on your job, and anything else they'll apply your dues towards, then by all means, join.

If not, you certainly shouldn't have to just to get a job.

The corporations bullied the employees, now the unions bully the corporations.

Hell, even in an RTW state the union can still make their point by putting their giant inflatable rat across the street from the non-union workers/company. Yes, they do that.. then strike to sit and man the rat.

Unions are a nessescary evil, but they shouldn't be all-powerful, same as corporations. Just enough people should join to cause the company to feel it when they act, but not so many that they can cripple the company over shit like "we want 3hr paid lunch" or whatever hare-brained idea they may have.

Oh people are simply amazing creatures.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:00:04 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By allenNH:
In favor.

You like the union and their positions on your job, and anything else they'll apply your dues towards, then by all means, join.

If not, you certainly shouldn't have to just to get a job.

The corporations bullied the employees, now the unions bully the corporations.

Hell, even in an RTW state the union can still make their point by putting their giant inflatable rat across the street from the non-union workers/company. Yes, they do that.. then strike to sit and man the rat. hey
Oh people are simply amazing creatures. +1
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:01:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
I am completely against forcing people to join unions.


'nuff said.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:04:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By FNBrowning:

Originally Posted By Thuban:
Here’s what a Union Companies did before labor organized. . .

A bunch of guys create a corporation. Then they all refuse to acknowledge the bad and unsafe conditions they demand the workers toil in, and the long hours for little pay that they are faced with.

They threaten, beat, kill, anyone who that tries to organize the laborers or demand that better working conditions be instituted.

They tell the employees that they will keep it up until they go back to work, or they will be locked out and other poor slobs hired in their place who are willing, because of economic conditions, to do the work.

Right to work laws stop unions from making it mandatory to join a union shop to get a job. This dilutes the union's ability to bargain for better pay and workplace conditions.

I ’m really in favor of applying anti trust laws to large corporations and shutting them down. But, in the meantime I support unions because I've seen the need for them.

ETA.

Yes. Non-Compete agreements ought to be banned.


There, fixed if for you.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:15:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
I am completely against forcing people to join unions.


'nuff said.


You are pro-choice........ like freedom?
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:16:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By FNBrowning:

Originally Posted By Thuban:
Here’s what a Union Companies did before labor organized. . .

A bunch of guys create a corporation. Then they all refuse to acknowledge the bad and unsafe conditions they demand the workers toil in, and the long hours for little pay that they are faced with.

They threaten, beat, kill, anyone who that tries to organize the laborers or demand that better working conditions be instituted.

They tell the employees that they will keep it up until they go back to work, or they will be locked out and other poor slobs hired in their place who are willing, because of economic conditions, to do the work.

Right to work laws stop unions from making it mandatory to join a union shop to get a job. This dilutes the union's ability to bargain for better pay and workplace conditions.

I ’m really in favor of applying anti trust laws to large corporations and shutting them down. But, in the meantime I support unions because I've seen the need for them.

ETA.

Yes. Non-Compete agreements ought to be banned.


There, fixed if for you.


Nope, that really broke it. If you want to spout 19th century Marxist propaganda please do so under your own name and don’t put those vile words in my mouth.

I’m unaware of anyone being forced to work (outside of in time of war or national emergency) since slavery was outlawed. People were never forced to work in dangerous conditions or forced to work for low wages. They did so because it was the best deal around.

When a society starts its industrial revolution there is a surplus of labor which means wages will be low. That’s just basic economic law. It’s no one’s fault and can’t be changed. Attempting to legislate or unionize against this basic law will result in the industrial revolution taking longer to accomplish and a poorer population as a whole.

But once you get past the initial stages of the industrial revolution wages rise rapidly. Again this is basic economic law and it’s repeated itself in country after country. In countries were there are no unions wages rise faster than in countries where there are unions.

Besides, what do conditions that haven’t existed in the living memory of any current worker have to do with conditions today? Even if you could make the case that unions somehow helped society 100 years ago, that doesn’t mean we should keep them around today
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:24:07 AM EST
No one should be forced to join a Union, pay union dues, or be subject to union whims.

The "right to work" means you supposedly are allowed the right to gain employment in a union shop, irrespective of your union status.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:36:14 AM EST
Every time the UAW comes around for an organization drive,my employer (PPG Industries) starts listening to employee concerns,management actually comes out on the floor to talk & listen,and working conditions improve significantly. After they leave,things go back to normal.
Yeah,unions are bad,alright.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:53:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Thuban:
If you want to spout 19th century Marxist propaganda please do so under your own name and don’t put those vile words in my mouth.

I’m unaware of anyone being forced to work (outside of in time of war or national emergency) since slavery was outlawed. People were never forced to work in dangerous conditions or forced to work for low wages. They did so because it was the best deal around.

When a society starts its industrial revolution there is a surplus of labor which means wages will be low. That’s just basic economic law. It’s no one’s fault and can’t be changed. Attempting to legislate or unionize against this basic law will result in the industrial revolution taking longer to accomplish and a poorer population as a whole.

But once you get past the initial stages of the industrial revolution wages rise rapidly. Again this is basic economic law and it’s repeated itself in country after country. In countries were there are no unions wages rise faster than in countries where there are unions.

Besides, what do conditions that haven’t existed in the living memory of any current worker have to do with conditions today? Even if you could make the case that unions somehow helped society 100 years ago, that doesn’t mean we should keep them around today


Your lies about working conditions are vile themselves. Many baby-boomers like myself have parents still alive that remember when companies ruled with an iron fist.

Problem with people like yourself is that you are willfully ignorant of the necessity for labor laws.

We haven't had a real recession since the early 80's. Smart-alecs think that the low unemployment rates were always like today. Time was, the factory or mine was the only game in town and you worked for the man or starved. No, it wasn't slavery. Bully for you.

But those company b@stards got away with just short of murder. Why does the goverment still have to step in with OSHA laws if companies are so frickin' wonderful?


Now, to tell the truth, I think big labor is as bad as big corporations. But unlike the smug fools who disparage unions, I've worked both blue AND white collar.

I've been on the factory floor and been glad to have an contract the company had to adhere to, because the foremen weren't decent people.

I've also seen what's wrong with many unions because I've seen it from the inside.

I work in a professional position now, and I like what I do. But I recognize that unions will have to exist as long as there are corporate leaders being indicted. Anyone who treats their shareholders or the environment with criminal distain will victimize the worker on the shop floor also.

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 12:39:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By FNBrowning:
.....I work in a professional position now, and I like what I do. But I recognize that unions will have to exist as long as there are corporate leaders being indicted. Anyone who treats their shareholders or the environment with criminal distain will victimize the worker on the shop floor also.

The matter is not that "unions are no longer necessary", the matter is more like "if the union is guaranteed most of their dues no matter what they do, then there is a real common perception that they don't try too hard to do much".

Where I am working now is 85% dues for non-voting members.
If the company offered (could offer) me the same job as non-union, but with equivalent health care coverage to what I'm getting now (which is not great), I'd take it. But then--if the company started jacking me around I'd have no problems with walking out the door.

Right-to-work laws are only about letting the worker decide if they want to join or not. In a perfect world, union workers would pay dues and be covered under union rules, and non-union workers (at the same job) wouldn't pay any dues and wouldn't--but this is exactly the choice that UNIONS don't want workers to make.
Unions like to insist that it's a horrible idea--butit is worker empowerment--but it's exactly the sort that unions don't like.
A worker can quite the company anytime they want, and workers should also be able to quit the union anytime they want as well.
~
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 12:50:19 PM EST
Who needs right to work laws?

Would Michigan be where it is today if it were a right to work state?
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 12:54:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2006 12:55:20 PM EST by onthedgeofmyseat]
My understanding of the Right to work laws....Union or not.... Is that an employer can fire you for any reason at any time.....
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 8:51:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By onthedgeofmyseat:
My understanding of the Right to work laws....Union or not.... Is that an employer can fire you for any reason at any time.....


Although that often appears in the same legislation, that isn't, in and of itself, what Right to Work laws are. One of the first posters nailed it. RTW just means if there is a union, you can't be forced to join it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 9:24:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By onthedgeofmyseat:
My understanding of the Right to work laws....Union or not.... Is that an employer can fire you for any reason at any time.....


You're thinking of "Employment at Will".
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 10:41:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By FNBrowning:

Your lies about working conditions are vile themselves. Many baby-boomers like myself have parents still alive that remember when companies ruled with an iron fist.

Problem with people like yourself is that you are willfully ignorant of the necessity for labor laws.

We haven't had a real recession since the early 80's. Smart-alecs think that the low unemployment rates were always like today. Time was, the factory or mine was the only game in town and you worked for the man or starved. No, it wasn't slavery. Bully for you.

But those company b@stards got away with just short of murder. Why does the goverment still have to step in with OSHA laws if companies are so frickin' wonderful?


Now, to tell the truth, I think big labor is as bad as big corporations. But unlike the smug fools who disparage unions, I've worked both blue AND white collar.

I've been on the factory floor and been glad to have an contract the company had to adhere to, because the foremen weren't decent people.

I've also seen what's wrong with many unions because I've seen it from the inside.

I work in a professional position now, and I like what I do. But I recognize that unions will have to exist as long as there are corporate leaders being indicted. Anyone who treats their shareholders or the environment with criminal distain will victimize the worker on the shop floor also.



Basic Economics
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 11:26:12 AM EST
If people want to gather and negotiate as a group, they should have that freedom. If the company doesn't want to deal with them that way, they should have that freedom. If an individual doesn't want to join a union or wants to leave a union and negotiate as an individual, they should have that freedom.

Unions are no more inherently evil than corporations or partnerships or sole proprietorships. Can they be corrupt? Certainly. Can they perform a good service? Equally certainly.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 11:35:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By onthedgeofmyseat:
My understanding of the Right to work laws....Union or not.... Is that an employer can fire you for any reason at any time.....


You're thinking of "Employment at Will".


And that can be limited if the collective bargining agreement specifies so.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 11:38:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2006 11:45:31 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Jon3:
Are you in favor, or opposed? Explain politely please.


In favor

Unions may have been neccicary in the 'robber baron' days, but now we have gone 100% from one extreme to the other.

Unions, in their present form, are nothing more than a government-supported price-fixing monopoly on labor. They artificially inflatw wages & benefits, and make US firms non-competitive (unless, of course, the firms competition is based in socialist Europe, in which case our firm has the advantage of being less-unionized - see Boeing vis-a-vis EADS).

Now, there is nothing economically wrong with a group of workers deciding they don't want to work for less than a set wage. The 'wrong' comes in when employers are required to negotiate with them, when other workers are forbidden from undercutting them, when other workers are required to join their group to work, or when management is not allowed to fire them all - perminantly - if they refuse to work. Ideally, if a strike has economic validity - if the union is asking for market wage - they wouldn't need government protection as the company would not be able to find anyone who would supply labor at their price, and if there is no economic validity they'd all be unemployed while non-union workers took over at a rate the market would bear.

But that's not what we have - we have a monopoly that refuses to adapt to the realities of modern business and insists on making work labor-intensive, cost-innefective, and possibly - by protecting poor workers and resisting automation - lower quality...

Further, the argument of 'working conditions' is irrelevant now - (a) a 'hazardous work environment' is only 'hazoardous' when the salary is low, the market will determine how much pay working with those 'hazards' is worth, and (b) OSHA has gone so far overboard in regulating workplace safety that the fedgov now handles this 'issue' before anyone else...

RTW is a step in the right direction, dealing with ONE of those problems...
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 11:39:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By efpeter:
They can hire ya, and they can fire ya.


That is 'Employment at Will', a 100% different legal concept...
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 1:13:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Thuban:
Basic Economics


Tuban, while you are studing basic economics try some American history.

I guarantee that for every 12 examples of bad union behavior, there are 18 tales of corporate malfeasance and downright criminal corporate behavior.

The truth is that there has been more forest defoliated, more land stripped or poisoned and more lives ruined by corporate misadventures than by bad union guys in wide belts and work shirts.

Enron, Love Canal, Worldcom, Union Carbide in Bhopal, India. Heck, Erin Brockovich would be a nobody without a case against PG&E poisoning ground water.
Lately we’ve seen a lot more corporate honchos being lead out of court in handcuffs than union leaders.

Manufacturing is moving overseas NOT because of union wages. Manufacturing is moving overseas because of slave wages available there. By way of example, industries first moved to right-to-work states to avoid union shops. Then the greedy corporate bastards claimed they couldn’t pay depressed RTW wages. After NAFTA they moved to Mexico. The rude story is that many have now left Mexico for places in Asia where they don’t have to pay a living wage, provide humane working conditions, or respect the workers.

The point to remember is that labour didn’t get organized with a compelling reason to do so. And OSHA and the Superfund were created because corporations didn’t give a damn about their workers or the environment without a big stick to make them act like decent citizens.

Personally, I don’t trust Big Corporations, Big Goverment, Big Labour, or Big Religion. When too much authority and power are concentrated in one place, the little guy and his life/liberty are at risk.

But I must act, will act when poorly educated idiots blame the American worker for what the monkey-suited corporate fools decide in the wood-paneled business offices. You don’t have to look very far to see the failure, incompetence, apathy, and downright negligence that corporate America tolerates—and often rewards—these days.

Tuban, college boy, while you are studing your Basic Economics, read up on Michael Milken, Carl Icahn, T. Boone Pickens, and the partners at the buyout firm Kohlberg, Kravis, Roberts & Co.


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