Posted: 4/4/2004 2:53:42 PM EDT
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On another thread, the importance of range commands has come up. Does anyone have a good source of the "do's" and "do not's" during each command. For example: cease fire, cold range, range clear sometimes get used interchangeably, but sometimes not. Another example: during a cold range some people treat it as "the time to not shoot, but everything else is ok", some people treat it as "cannot handle a loaded weapon", some people treat it as "cannot handle any weapon, loaded or not", some people treat it as "cannot handle any weapon or magazines or ammo", and some people treat it as "touch nothing and back away from the firing line". Does ARFCOM have a set of range commands? Are there any other good sources? I'm just looking to be safe -- this is not a slam on anyone else from the other thread. |
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Every range I've ever used, from military to civilian, has a standard definition of cold: firearms will NOT be handled. Most have a yellow line you must remain behind unless scoring/pulling targets. Want to waste a match entry fee? Handle a firearm off the line or any time the range is declared cold and you will be asked (directed if necessary) to leave. This is SOP at every match I've attended for the past 30 years. No exceptions. Eddie |
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I'll take a shot. I am an NRA trained Range Officer. "Cease fire, range is cold", or similar command means to lay your weapon down with action open and facing upward so that the range officer can see that it is clear. You may not touch the weapon until the range is once again "Hot". You may load magazines, scratch your neither regions, or go down range, but cannot touch your weapon while people are down range. Once the line is declared "Hot", you can clean your weapon, adjust your sights, or shoot. We follow these rules very strictly at the Golden Triangle Gun Club where I shoot. |
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Thanks Eddie, I've only gone to the local unsupervised public range and never really got taught range rules. I'm asking now -- so that I may be a better, safer user of my firearms. Question: What do think about people who are loading ammo into magazines during cold range? |
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Quoted: I'll take a shot. I am an NRA trained Range Officer. "Cease fire, range is cold", or similar command means to lay your weapon down with action open and facing upward so that the range officer can see that it is clear. You may not touch the weapon until the range is once again "Hot". You may load magazines, scratch your neither regions, or go down range, but cannot touch your weapon while people are down range. Once the line is declared "Hot", you can clean your weapon, adjust your sights, or shoot. We follow these rules very strictly at the Golden Triangle Gun Club where I shoot. Thanks Old Painless, I can follow these rules. Any suggestions about how to approach people at an unsupervised range when they are not following these rules? |
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Quoted: Thanks Eddie, I've only gone to the local unsupervised public range and never really got taught range rules. I'm asking now -- so that I may be a better, safer user of my firearms. Question: What do think about people who are loading ammo into magazines during cold range? Nothing, as long as the magazine stays away from the weapon. Charging an integral magazine (like on a Springfield 03) is a definite no-no, since that involves gun handling. Putting the magazine in the weapon would likewise be bad. At every organized range I have ever been to, in five states over the last 15 years, that's been the case. |
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Quoted: Thanks Old Painless, I can follow these rules. Any suggestions about how to approach people at an unsupervised range when they are not following these rules? Yep, I sure do. [:D] In fact, this is one of my pet peeves. If I see someone handling their weapon on a cold range, I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they just are not properly trained. I don't "eat them out" or anything. I just approach them and say something like, "Hey friend, at this range, when the line is cold, we do not touch our weapons." They are usually surprised and put the weapon down and say something like, "I sure am sorry. I didn't know." I say, "No problem. We just want to be sure that there are no accidents on our range, so we are very strict with the rules. Say, what kind of rifle rest is that you are using?" Now, if they were to object in any way, I would warn them a little more firmly. If they still didn't follow the rules, I would pack my stuff, get their license number, and leave the range. I would then report them to the club President and they would have to meet with him. He is not very forgiving about range safety. The reason I would leave the range is that I simple [b]refuse[/b] to shoot with people that are unsafe in their gun handling. And I'm not getting in a fist fight over the range rules. I can come back another day, and he won't be there. If there was a match going on, the official Range Officer would eject the violator from the range and probably the club. We don't put up with unsafe gun handling. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Thanks Old Painless, I can follow these rules. Any suggestions about how to approach people at an unsupervised range when they are not following these rules? Yep, I sure do. [:D] In fact, this is one of my pet peeves. If I see someone handling their weapon on a cold range, I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they just are not properly trained. I don't "eat them out" or anything. I just approach them and say something like, "Hey friend, at this range, when the line is cold, we do not touch our weapons." They are usually surprised and put the weapon down and say something like, "I sure am sorry. I didn't know." I say, "No problem. We just want to be sure that there are no accidents on our range, so we are very strict with the rules. Say, what kind of rifle rest is that you are using?" Now, if they were to object in any way, I would warn them a little more firmly. If they still didn't follow the rules, I would pack my stuff, get their license number, and leave the range. I would then report them to the club President and they would have to meet with him. He is not very forgiving about range safety. The reason I would leave the range is that I simple [b]refuse[/b] to shoot with people that are unsafe in their gun handling. And I'm not getting in a fist fight over the range rules. I can come back another day, and he won't be there. If there was a match going on, the official Range Officer would eject the violator from the range and probably the club. We don't put up with unsafe gun handling. Sounds like good advice. There are no gunclubs here in Savannah (just one for skeet/trap). I wish there were. I only have an unsupervised DNR public range where its usually each man for himself. The range commands vary greatly and the way people act varies even more. I'd say about half the people are loading weapons or cleaning weapons during cold range. |
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On the other side of the coin is my range. Since the land our range is on was donated by the county we have to open it up to the general public on the weekends. Club members take turns standing a four hour shift. I hadn't been in the club too long when my name came up for a shift. I called the Range Master and asked what my duties would be for that four hours and was told "Not much, just make sure nobody's shooting holes in the roof. Take your own weapon out there and have a ball". That was it. Our range isn't too large with five rifle benches and about 16 feet of pistol table. When someone wants to go downrange they usually stand by with a target in hand until they get the eye of the shooters and ask if it's OK to go downrange. Although we don't have a hard and fast rule about handling guns while folks are downrange, I enforce the standard of not touching weapons while this is happening. The only people that have given me any crap about it are some of the older club members. This usually happens when someone is cleaning a barrel during a cease-fire. I figure that if I've got the job that day we do things my way and when their turn comes up then we'll do things their way. |
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All this cold/hot stuff makes me glad most of my shooting is done on a fully supervised hot range. Hot range rules make everything a lot simpler and clearer. There is never any question about a weapon's status: they are always loaded and ready to go. The are either in the holster/on the sling or being fired. Nothing in between is allowed except under the direct supervision of a range officer, and firing is only allowed under the direct supervision of a range officer. Advantages: no one is uncertain about the status of their own or anyone elses weapon, they are all safely stored/pointed in the holster or on the sling, and, best of all, almost no "fumble factor" associated with administrative gun handling (when most ND's occur). Disadvantages: it only really works when you have a supervisory staff (although you could argue that cold range rules also need a supervisory staff!), and there needs to be at least a minimal amount of training/vetting to be sure folks can get in/out of the holster or on/off sling safely and are using their safeties, decockers, etc. |
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Quoted: On another thread, the importance of range commands has come up. Does anyone have a good source of the "do's" and "do not's" during each command. For example: cease fire, cold range, range clear sometimes get used interchangeably, but sometimes not. Another example: during a cold range some people treat it as "the time to not shoot, but everything else is ok", some people treat it as "cannot handle a loaded weapon", some people treat it as "cannot handle any weapon, loaded or not", some people treat it as "cannot handle any weapon or magazines or ammo", and some people treat it as "touch nothing and back away from the firing line". Does ARFCOM have a set of range commands? Are there any other good sources? I'm just looking to be safe -- this is not a slam on anyone else from the other thread. Well when I'm at the range with a group of people it's like this. When the range is "cold" for checking/pasting targets anyone not going downrange should clear their weapons and step back from the bench. Thats prety much standard for any event at our club, like the deer sight where there are a lot of shooters on the line. Once everyone is back from downrange and the range is "clear" at that point if you want to pick up yer gun fine, want to load it fine. Once the range has been called "clear" it can be called "hot" at any time by anyone on the line. That explination makes sence right? |
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Quoted: All this cold/hot stuff makes me glad most of my shooting is done on a fully supervised hot range. Hot range rules make everything a lot simpler and clearer. There is never any question about a weapon's status: they are always loaded and ready to go. The are either in the holster/on the sling or being fired. Nothing in between is allowed except under the direct supervision of a range officer, and firing is only allowed under the direct supervision of a range officer. Advantages: no one is uncertain about the status of their own or anyone elses weapon, they are all safely stored/pointed in the holster or on the sling, and, best of all, almost no "fumble factor" associated with administrative gun handling (when most ND's occur). Disadvantages: it only really works when you have a supervisory staff (although you could argue that cold range rules also need a supervisory staff!), and there needs to be at least a minimal amount of training/vetting to be sure folks can get in/out of the holster or on/off sling safely and are using their safeties, decockers, etc. We run either way it all depends on the people shooting that day and what we are doing, and which range we are using. I've spent a good bit of time my last couple range sessions with an AR slung on my back and a pistol in the drop leg just walking around talking to people in between shooting, showing a newbie something, shooting. I'm comfortable in eather situation, well untill somone doesn't follow the rules/procedures set out and we're running a cold range. Than I get a little uncomfortable. Infact I've never had a problem or concern when we ran a hot range. I think just the fact that everyone knows all the weapons are hot all the time makes everyone a little more safety concious. The only time I've ever had a problem was on a cold range. |
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in addition to the rules posted below, range obi's (open bolt indicators) are strongly recommended. shooters to the line! means exactly that. shooters may cross the safety/ready line and approach the firingline. shooters, your 'x' minute preparation period has begun! shooters may set up and prepare for firing but may NOT load their weapons. this period also gives you time to inspect the downrange area for stray shooters/personel. is line ready on the left?! ready on the right?! this requires you to awknowledge your status on the line and your duty is to REPORT safety/mechanical issues. this is also another opportunity for shooters to inspect the downrange area for safety issues. make the line ready! this is usually an interim command that lets you know the prep time is about over and the firing is soon to start. again, this is one more step for you to inspect your and your neighbor's status on the firing line. all safety gear, such as ears and eyes must be in use at this stage. shooters, you may lock and load! only now may you load your weapon. this command does NOT give you permission to fire! shooters, you may fire on my command! commence fire! or similar command to fire, often specifying a time period the firing will take place over. at the command to commence fire, you may safely discharge your weapon. cease fire! means exactly that! finger off the trigger NOW! do not continue firing! unload the weapon. check the action's status now. make the line safe! unload all weapons. inspect your action to insure status. insert open bolt indicator in the action. position firems in a safe direction with the open action/obi easily visible. do NOT handle weapons during a cold range. is the line safe?!?! inspect all weapons within view and scan both the line and the berm. indicate your status to the rso's. prepare to move forward! either get your target chinging gear ready to go downrange or step behind the safety/ready line. move forward and change targets! scan the line again to verify status and then move forward with target changing gear. change the targets quickly, and move back to the line. do NOT handle your weapons and try to determine the status of your nearest shooters on the line. once returned from changing targets, shooters should be behind the safety line, or at the least, away from their firearms. a. ALWAYS POINT THE MUZZLE IN A SAFE DIRECTION. b. KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER, and outside the trigger guard, until ready to fire or until the command "Commence Firing" has been given. c. KEEP THE ACTION OPEN AND FIREARM UNLOADED UNTIL READY TO USE. On a firing range this means the shooters are in a position on the firing line and the range has been cleared for live firing. d. KNOW HOW THE FIREARM OPERATES. e. BE SURE THE FIREARM AND AMMUNITION ARE COMPATIBLE. f. CARRY ONLY ONE GAUGE/CALIBER OF AMMUNITION WHEN SHOOTING. When at a shooting range with more than one firearm, use one at a time and when complete, store that firearm and it ammunition before using the next one. g. BE SURE OF THE TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND. When on shooting ranges, be mindful also of adjacent areas and act accordingly. h. WEAR EAR AND EYE PROTECTION. i. DO NOT MIX ALCOHOL OR DRUGS WITH SHOOTING ACTIVITIES. j. BE AWARE THAT CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES MAY REQUIRE ADDITIONAL RULES. All. general range rules, whether on indoor or outdoor ranges, should incorporate at a minimum the following: a. Know and obey all range commands. b. Know where others are at all times. c. Shoot only at authorized targets. d. Ground level targets are not authorized without a proper backstop. See exceptions for Smallbore Rifle, Highpower and Smallbore Silhouette. Maintain the proper target height to ensure that the fired projectile, after passing through the target, hits the desired portion of the backstop. This will reduce the possibility of ricochets and projectiles escaping the range safety fan or property. e. Designate a range officer when none is present or assigned. f. Unload, open the action, remove the magazine and ground and/or bench all firearms during a ceasefire. g. Do NOT handle any firearm or stand at the firing line where firearms are present while others are down range. h. Always keep the muzzle pointed at the backstop or bullet trap. Never allow the muzzle to point in any direction whereby an inadvertent discharge would allow the escape of a projectile into an outer area. |
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What are you guys opinion on this. At my local rifle range I was admonished (not chewed out) for leaving a magazine in my AR when the range was cold. Note, I did have the bolt open with the open ejection port facing up and the rifle pointed in a safe direction, but apparently that isn't enough at this range. Did I screw up, or was this range officer being extra cautious ? Ed |
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Quoted: What are you guys opinion on this. At my local rifle range I was admonished (not chewed out) for leaving a magazine in my AR when the range was cold. Note, I did have the bolt open with the open ejection port facing up and the rifle pointed in a safe direction, but apparently that isn't enough at this range. Did I screw up, or was this range officer being extra cautious ? Ed Well It's kind hard to say. Someimes we require mags out actions open and an idicator. Sometimes it's ok to leave an empty mag in the gun with the action open and something to indicate a clear chamber. The default though is actions open, and mags out. All of them depend on who is shooting and what we are doing. It is all hashed out before the shooting ever starts. But unless otherwise stated we go with the default. |
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As a personal rule, kind of to the point of the [i]other[/i] thread, in addition to my years of layers of tin foil, there is one rule I always follow. I always have my carry gun, on my hip, in my holster, loaded and ready to go. I am always live armed. Period. I shoot a lot of places with a lot of people I dont always know anything about. If I am shooting my carry gun, I have another one locked and loaded on my hip. Always. This is always done under a hot range, and always done. IF the other guy (in denial) in teh other thread had observed this rule, he wouldnt have got in trouble. [;)] |
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I bought a yellow magazine block with flag from Bushmaster. Check out the Bushmaster catalog on page 18. It's listed as "Lower Receiver Safety Block with Flag," item #SB16F. $7.95 plus shipping keeps everyone from standard range officers to even the most overzealous range nazi happy. [:)] Their online catalog section that shows this part is at [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/electronic-documents/2004Catalogv1/2004v1p15.pdf[/url] Mike |
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CAMPYBOB's rules and range commands are pretty much the only way you can safely control a large number of shooters on a firing line. I have used them almost word for word on many ranges over the years. I’ve seen people do some really stupid things at ranges either because they don’t know any better or they’re just really dumb. Old_Painless: While there is nothing inherently dangerous about loading mags during a ceasefire it's generally not a good idea on a public range. When people are allowed to handle mags they sometimes absentmindedly load them into their weapons or start handling their guns on the bench. |
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Quoted: I'll take a shot. I am an NRA trained Range Officer. "Cease fire, range is cold", or similar command means to lay your weapon down with action open and facing upward so that the range officer can see that it is clear. You may not touch the weapon until the range is once again "Hot". You may load magazines, scratch your neither regions, or go down range, but cannot touch your weapon while people are down range. Once the line is declared "Hot", you can clean your weapon, adjust your sights, or shoot. We follow these rules very strictly at the [b]Golden Triangle Gun Club[/b] where I shoot. OP- were you by chance at the NRA regional weekend before last? |
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[b]I bought a yellow magazine block with flag from Bushmaster. Check out the Bushmaster catalog on page 18. It's listed as "Lower Receiver Safety Block with Flag," item #SB16F. $7.95 plus shipping keeps everyone from standard range officers to even the most overzealous range nazi happy.[/b] not really!!!! most events now ONLY accept obi's that acually insert INTO THE CHAMBER. THE MAG BLOCK WITH FLAG does not exclude having the chamber still loaded. granted, a round that doesn't extract when the bolt is withdrawn is very rare, but the goal is now to insure an unloaded CHAMBER. this means the device must now be required to physically occupy the space a round in the chamber would take up. cookoffs, again while a rarity, can still be a bitch. i recommend folks buy their obi range flags from the dcm/cmp ( [url]www.odcmp.com[/url] ) . they offer two variaties for CHEAP that meet all the latest safety requirement on the firingline. stay safe! and many years of good shooting to you all! |
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Quoted: Quoted: I don't "eat them out" or anything. [shock] [shock] Uh, don't you mean "chew them out" I find the English language fascinating. It is a local dialect issue. Here in Southeast Texas, it is common to say, "Eat them out", while apparently up north, you folks say, "Chew them out". Means the same thing. (Or thang, as we say here.) [:D] |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't "eat them out" or anything. [shock] [shock] Uh, don't you mean "chew them out" I find the English language fascinating. It is a local dialect issue. Here in Southeast Texas, it is common to say, "Eat them out", while apparently up north, you folks say, "Chew them out". Means the same thing. (Or thang, as we say here.) [:D] Actually it means something completely different up north as in "Eat out her thang" [:D] |
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The range I shoot at(if I go to the range) is Ben Avery here in Phoenix. A facility to truly behold. Their range rules are nearly identical to Old_Painless's, except: YOU MAY NOT TOUCH [I]ANYTHING[/I] on the shooting table while the range is cold. No mags, nothing. If you want to load mags during a cease-fire, the rangemaster gives a 1 minute warning before cease-fire, and you'd likely need to use that time to move your mags and ammo to the "table" area behind the benches. All firearms must have magazines removed if they have them and actions locked open. Empty chamber indicators are required for weapons like AKs that do not have hold open devices. Revolver cylinders must be empty and left open. Bolt action rifles must have bolts open and empty magazines. Lever action rifles must have the action left open. The only time I've been admonished there was when I was getting ready to leave and had used the cease-fire time to go get my target holder and return it to the holding area behind the firing line. You cannot case/uncase weapons of ANY kind except at the shooting tables there, so I had to wait until the range went hot before I could pack up and leave. One of the RSOs was standing about 10 feet away from me-had inspected my 2 ARs and 2 handguns to ensure emptiness during cease-fire-and when the range went hot I grabbed the case for one of my ARs, pointed it downwards, grabbed the rifle [i]with the bolt still locked open[/i] and put the rifle in the case muzzle downwards. The RSO jumped me and said to keep my firearms pointed downrange when casing them. I thought it was kinda nit-picky, but what the hell. If that's what they want, I can handle that. |