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Posted: 12/12/2001 10:33:36 PM EDT
Hello, I have a couple questions that i would like some help with. About 5 weeks ago i had the serial number run on a browning i bought, i never heard back until last week when the ATF knocked on my door and asked to search my house, now the agent told me i diden't need to let him search but if i diden't he would lock my house down and get a warrent and search anyway, so as i have nothing to hide i let them in and let them search. Now while they were doing this i was confined to the kitchen with a state trooper to watch over me all the time, they took serial #'s descriptions and pictures of every firearm i own. Tuesday a state trooper stopped in and confiscated a shotgun that was "possibly" stolen. My questions are if i buy a firearm from a dealer don't they run those #'s? also i have been told that they were supposed to leave a receipt for the 2 firearms they took which they never did, is this true? Thanks for any help you can give me. AR-ERIC
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 10:46:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2001 10:42:38 PM EDT by 12_15_20_2_15_25]
Your mistake was letting him in with out a search warrent. What is this nothing to hide stuff, why don't you remove your doors and curtains then.
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 10:52:17 PM EDT
From what I understand dealers don't have to run numbers. Also, I would have asked for the warrant! just my 2 cents medcop
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 10:55:00 PM EDT
Sniff, Sniff. Anyone else smell that???
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 10:58:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2001 11:01:40 PM EDT by Dave_G]
If he had probable cause to obtain a warrant to search the house, he would have arrived with one in hand. If the Browning was stolen property, you had it's serial number run so you must have suspected something, then the warrant would have been limited to the Browning, which you could have turned over to him immediately and ended any further search, barring any other cause to search further or to seize property discovered during the search for the Browning. My bet is that he had the warrant in his pocket, limiting him to a search for the Browning. Your consent to the search of your whole house cost you a stolen shotgun. If you bought that from a dealer, you may have cause for action against the dealer for selling you stolen property. As for a receipt, ask them for a copy of any report they made. You'll need it to sue the dealer. For now, be happy that they didn't charge you with possession of stolen property. Their tactics were not illegal or improper.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 12:21:34 AM EDT
medcop, I thought of that but i WAS in possession of a stolen firearm and i diden't want to make matters worse, also all my firearms except the browning were purchased from dealers so i really diden't think that there would be a problem with them searching. As far as the 2 firearms being stolen i had no problem with giving them up. I am not complaining about loosing the 2 firearms, i know i would be very upset if mine were stolen and would want them back. So if dealers do not run the #'s than anyone of use could have any # of stolen firearms and not even know it? AR-ERIC
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 2:19:45 AM EDT
It would be perfectly appropriate for you to inquire about the results of the investigation. Remember, probably all that happened was that someone called up and said that the firearm was stolen. Think about what a perfect scam it would be to do this fraudulently, since people in your position would be afraid of getting in trouble. BTW, if you sued the person who sold the weapon to you, you would probably be forced to prove the weapon was stolen as part of your case.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 7:46:37 AM EDT
I'm sorry to hear about your troubles AR-Eric. I'm getting very discouraged by the number of AR15.com members who have recently fallen for the old "Let us search your house without a warrant... or else!" crap. The line "We'll go easy on you if you just cooperate fully and let us have free reign" is utter nonsense. If the police/prosecutor wants to nail you to the wall for something, they're going to try to nail you to the wall regardless of the amount of or lack of voluntary assistance you provide them! If the BATF agent had a warrant in his pocket, fine, let him produce it. Most likely he either didn't know if he could get a warrant, or didn't have one allowing him to search your whole house. If he did have one, the judge probably signed it only allowing for the siezure of the Browning in question. PLEASE PEOPLE! MAKE THE DA'S OFFICE AND POLICE AUTHORITIES STATE THEIR CASE/REASONS IN FRONT OF A JUDGE TO OBTAIN A SEARCH WARRANT AS PRESCRIBED BY LAW! REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU "HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE!" [:(!] We complain incessantly (and rightfully) about the constant infringements of our 2nd Amendment rights under the US Constitution... so why are we so willing to give up so easily and surrender our 4th Amendment rights under that very same Constitution time and time again??? I'm sorry AR-Eric, I'm not trying to pick on you alone but I treasure the freedoms that I have living in the USA, and the sacrifices so many of our men have made to safeguard them and it upsets me greatly to see people so easily and voluntarily surrender them... [:(]
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 9:11:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2001 9:04:58 AM EDT by AR15fan]
No, dealers dont check to see in a trade-in, used gun is stolen before they resell it. Most states dont even have a provision for dealers to do so. It is only illegal to [b]knowingly[/b] possess stolen property. Personally, I assume any used gun for sale at a gunshow in a cash and carry state is stolen. Buyer beware.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 9:53:38 AM EDT
NEVER NEVER NEVER consent to a search. [b]Just say no.[/b]
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 9:24:42 PM EDT
Dave_G, i did offer to turn over the browning but he wasen't satisfyed with that. You are right i should have made him produce a warrant. Ruckus, are you trying to imply that i am an leo? If so why? there is nothing in my post that would lead you to beleive that. Just for the record i am not an leo, the closest i have ever come to one was last week, i have nothing against them, they are just doing what they are told to do. All i was after was a little info on some of my rights. As to everybody else that responded, thank you, I learned a couple things i did not know before. It appears as though my biggest mistake was letting them in, which i will certainly not do in the future. AR-ERIC
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 9:42:27 PM EDT
Well, here in VA the only "dealers" who can actually run a trace on a firearm to see if it is stolen are pawn shops. We (regular dealers) have no way of checking to see if anything we take in is stolen or not. I wish we could. Definitely get on the ATF's ass about the disposition of hte Browning. I hope you recorded the name of the agent and the trooper. Good luck and I hope it turns out in your favor. If the shotgun was stolen, it should be returned, but you should also not have to eat the cost of it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 1:04:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 2:13:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2001 2:08:07 AM EDT by Ridge_runner]
Beware I know of one federal agency who dint have a warrant and broke a door in took several firearms left a receipt on the table and left(no one was home). THIS IS A FACT! It wasnt my home or anything to do with me but I was the first person in the home after the search.They got a warrant later.I dont want to start a flame war or any thing but I shit you not my friend. Still I would have ask for a warrant. I hope you have talked to an atturney also go talk to the ffl who sold you the guns.They have to keep record of the firearms that are bought and sold though their shop.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 6:26:39 AM EDT
It might have been wise for you to tell this gentleman that if you want any weapon other than the Browning then take a hike. WTF, you were "confined" to the kitchen in your own house. I would have never allowed that. I would have been VERY upset by someone trying to "confine" me in my own home during a consensual search. Be aware that you can withdrawal consent for a search. Next time tell them to get lost. If someone told me they were going to lock my house down while they went and got a warrant, I might be tempted just to slam the door in their face. If they want to break in, let them. I would like to see the agent explain why he had to break down your door to remove you from the house when he could have easily obtained a warrant before he ever visited your property. Think about that a second; did he really have any more probable cause after he came to your house than before? Given the timeline, my gut tells me there might be a problem with an attempt to lock down your house.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 10:58:58 AM EDT
never help them put you in jail. the police make a living putting people in jail. IT means innocent or guilty. all you did was make life easy for them to jam you up. you may be innocent, but you will spend tens of thousands of dollars proving you are innocent. the first words out of you mouth should be NO. the second one should be you attorneys phone number. then slam the door. the police are not there to help you. YOU MUST REMEMBER THIS FOR THE FUTURE. the state of Illinois has released many from death row. guess what, they were innocent. so what about the ones that we don't know about. ask randy weaver. the police were there the help him. that is why the FBI shot and killed his unarmed wife and baby.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 5:57:08 AM EDT
Your luck must not be very good if you purchased two stolen guns from a dealer. Don,t understand how the numbers got by the local LEO,s when the forms passed there desks.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 6:11:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: If he had probable cause to obtain a warrant to search the house, he would have arrived with one in hand.
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I agree. Never let anyone in your house without a warrant.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 11:20:47 AM EDT
Just ordered a copy of the book recommended by Troy. Not many copies left in stock, so grab one soon if you intend to order it. Now, who is this coauthor, Boston T. Party?
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 12:56:20 PM EDT
QCMGR, If he knew he had a stolen Browning to pick up, he did have the warrant in his pocket. It would have been a wasted trip if he didn't have one and Eric refused to let him in. He just talked his way into a full blown search.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 5:30:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR-Eric:
Ruckus, are you trying to imply that i am an leo?
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No, I was not implying that you were/are a LEO. When I first read the story the first thing that popped into my mind was, "this is total TROLL bullshit!" Figuring maybe you were one of the many recently booted members coming back to ride the coat tails of OneshotOnekill. It just didn't add up at the time. (it still really doesn't) Anyway, My apologies to you AR-Eric, and best of luck.
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