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Posted: 3/5/2010 9:40:11 AM EDT
After Berlin fell, was it really necessary to indoctrinate the people into believing that any and all senses of national pride/self-worth makes you an eeeeeeevil "Nazi"?
You have to grant me that its more than a little pathetic that pretty much an entire people would be willing to throw away 2000 years of history and become a puppet state of Brussels/colony of Ankara over one historical mistake.

IB4T 88, ban him pics, and generalized abuse; This is a question that's been bothering me for quite sometime and I'd like some serious input.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 10:23:19 AM EDT
after killing 8million people dircetly and bening responsible for two world wars cousing up to 80 million cassualties you have some explaining to do.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 1:16:26 PM EDT
^^^^^^^^ Yeah, yeah, I know. But I was just wondering why we never hear arguments disputing the rights of states like Russia or China to exist and just tolerate their endless strategies of denial for their crimes.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 1:39:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2010 1:40:08 PM EDT by Joshisskinny]
I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for or not, but I was watching Operation Valkyrie on the History Channel.  They were talking about how after the war, Germany joined NATO and the allies decided it was time for Germany to defend Europe.  The goal was to find a national identity separate from the Nazi past.  They decided to pick the identity of German resistance (those that tried to defy or kill Hitler).  Everyone that wanted to be in the Army was asked whether they thought those who tried to kill Hitler were traitors to the country or heroes for trying to save Germany.  Those that answered traitors were not allowed into the Army.  At least that's what they were saying on TV.

It wasn't losing all national pride, it was more redefining what that pride was.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 1:50:47 PM EDT
If this question is really eating you that bad, I suggest you do some more research into the history of Germany and the German people.  I believe you'll find that the question itself is rather built largely on misperception.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 1:51:51 PM EDT
I hate Illinois Nazis.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 1:53:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Joshisskinny:
I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for or not, but I was watching Operation Valkyrie on the History Channel.  They were talking about how after the war, Germany joined NATO and the allies decided it was time for Germany to defend Europe.  The goal was to find a national identity separate from the Nazi past.  They decided to pick the identity of German resistance (those that tried to defy or kill Hitler).  Everyone that wanted to be in the Army was asked whether they thought those who tried to kill Hitler were traitors to the country or heroes for trying to save Germany.  Those that answered traitors were not allowed into the Army.  At least that's what they were saying on TV.

It wasn't losing all national pride, it was more redefining what that pride was.


I saw that series that series as well. One of the ladies being interviewed (and a few others) said that basically it's hard to be proud of being German, which seemed odd to me. They have a lot to be proud of right now.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 2:00:48 PM EDT
Sadly, being GD this will probably turn into a shitstorm.

I'll just say that Germany was neutered after WWII and that follows through today. I know for a fact many Germans do not have national pride for fear of the past, but I also know that some do.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 2:00:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 2:04:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stefan040271:
after killing 8million people dircetly and bening responsible for two world wars cousing up to 80 million cassualties you have some explaining to do.


I'd like to hear your explanation as to how Germany was directly responsible for the first world war.

Link Posted: 3/5/2010 3:16:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fettesbrotde:


I'll just say that Germany was neutered after WWII and that follows through today. I know for a fact many Germans do not have national pride for fear of the past, but I also know that some do.


Would the estimation of around 65% match it?
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 6:10:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By satellite:
Originally Posted By Joshisskinny:


I saw that series that series as well. One of the ladies being interviewed (and a few others) said that basically it's hard to be proud of being German, which seemed odd to me. They have a lot to be proud of right now.


Which strikes me as odd:
Pretty much all nations have done their share of unsavory things, but they're still proud of their countries. Why is Germany any different in this regard?
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 6:26:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2010 6:27:19 PM EDT by Critical_Will]
Originally Posted By sparsedirect:
I hate Illinois Nazis.


Rofl, I wonder if anyone else gets it....
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 6:29:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stefan040271:
after killing 8million people dircetly and bening responsible for two world wars cousing up to 80 million cassualties you have some explaining to do.


Unlike our loving ally the Soviets who killed over 20 millions people.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 6:30:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rkh:
Originally Posted By stefan040271:
after killing 8million people dircetly and bening responsible for two world wars cousing up to 80 million cassualties you have some explaining to do.


I'd like to hear your explanation as to how Germany was directly responsible for the first world war.



...and in my opinion it was the egregious outcome of WWI that led directly to WWII.
Would have happened w/o Hitler.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 6:34:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stefan040271:
after killing 8million people dircetly and bening responsible for two world wars cousing up to 80 million cassualties you have some explaining to do.


The premise that Germany bore anything approaching sole responsibility for either WWI or WWII is as flawed as your spelling.  
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 6:43:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2010 6:44:19 PM EDT by paris-dakar]
Originally Posted By SIPCAT-C:
Originally Posted By rkh:
Originally Posted By stefan040271:
after killing 8million people dircetly and bening responsible for two world wars cousing up to 80 million cassualties you have some explaining to do.


I'd like to hear your explanation as to how Germany was directly responsible for the first world war.



...and in my opinion it was the egregious outcome of WWI that led directly to WWII.
Would have happened w/o Hitler.


I've always been of the opinion that what people call WWII was mostly an illusion - Europe was at a state of constant political war from the time the Bolsheviks took power in the USSR.

Tell the Poles (who fought the Red Army in the early-20s) the Ukrainians (who fought the Red Army with the Poles in the early-20s and were slaughtered byb the Bolsheviks in the 30s) the Hungarians (who fought a revolution led by Bela Cohen in the 20s) the Prussians (who fought a revolution led by Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebnicht in the 20s) the Bavarians (who fought a revolution led by Kurt Eisner in the 20s) and the Spaniards (who fought a civil war against a radical Left Popular Front in the 30s) how peaceful Europe was before WWII supposedly 'started'.  

The Left bears far more responsibility for the tragedy of European politics in the first half of the 20th Century than Germany.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 6:44:30 PM EDT
Who fucking cares.

We won, we put their nose in it like one does with a puppy after it shits on the carpet.

"We" didn't neuter Germany, the Soviets were the one's who neutered (their portion) of Germany.

One only has to look at the articles and even posters on this board who say East Germany was a much better "country" than Unified Germany is today.

There is more to pride than marching around in spiked helmets while wearing jack boots and giving some weird-assed salute.

National Pride has more to do with rebuilding the country and having both world class armed forces and world class business.

Link Posted: 3/5/2010 6:45:30 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Theoderich:



Originally Posted By satellite:


Originally Posted By Joshisskinny:





I saw that series that series as well. One of the ladies being interviewed (and a few others) said that basically it's hard to be proud of being German, which seemed odd to me. They have a lot to be proud of right now.




Which strikes me as odd:

Pretty much all nations have done their share of unsavory things, but they're still proud of their countries. Why is Germany any different in this regard?


Seriously, they lost. *shrug*



 
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 6:52:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By paris-dakar:
Originally Posted By SIPCAT-C:
Originally Posted By rkh:
Originally Posted By stefan040271:
after killing 8million people dircetly and bening responsible for two world wars cousing up to 80 million cassualties you have some explaining to do.


I'd like to hear your explanation as to how Germany was directly responsible for the first world war.



...and in my opinion it was the egregious outcome of WWI that led directly to WWII.
Would have happened w/o Hitler.


I've always been of the opinion that what people call WWII was mostly an illusion - Europe was at a state of constant political war from the time the Bolsheviks took power in the USSR.

Tell the Poles (who fought the Red Army in the early-20s) the Ukrainians (who fought the Red Army with the Poles in the early-20s and were slaughtered byb the Bolsheviks in the 30s) the Hungarians (who fought a revolution led by Bela Cohen in the 20s) the Prussians (who fought a revolution led by Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebnicht in the 20s) the Bavarians (who fought a revolution led by Kurt Eisner in the 20s) and the Spaniards (who fought a civil war against a radical Left Popular Front in the 30s) how peaceful Europe was before WWII supposedly 'started'.  

The Left bears far more responsibility for the tragedy of European politics in the first half of the 20th Century than Germany.


I'll take the the Ottoman Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Treaty of Versailles , Woodrow Wilson, the Treaty of Lausanne and Adolf Hitler for $200 ALex.

Link Posted: 3/5/2010 7:13:10 PM EDT
this is really funny. I am German and I have heard many Stories from my Grandfather and Grandmother. This would take days and fill pages. In any case after the War the entire Country was Destroyed and mostly Women and Children where left to clean up "Trümmerfrauen" all the Cities. Most of the Men where either dead or in Prison. They where all proud of what they have accomplished and re-build Germany. It is amazing to see Pictures of before and after. The other thing is now that a lot of people still dwell on the past with what Germany did. Let it go already it is now over 60 years since the War is over. Many other Countries have done evil things - Countries such as Russia and even the US. But nobody speaks of what they have done. I do not understand why but this is what takes place. Anyhow Germans are proud like other people are proud of where they are from. But again Germany / Germans are pretty much singled out for what took place. So I guess most people do not just go around and say I am German or even after the War to say you are German when you where in another Country was most likely not a good idea. Even in today's world not everybody likes Germans. Even in the US I only tell somebody when they ask me because they can detect an accent. Some people give you a look and others strike up a conversation with you. The other thing is that Germany was split in 4 Sections and they had to live under the Rules of the Section Chiefs. I can not imagine how that must have been like but my Grandmother has said many times that it was not easy at all. Especially in Berlin when the Wall was build and the only way Food came in was per the so called "Rosinen Bomber" the Douglas C-54 was the only source for people to get Supplies. In any case not sure if this is what you wanted to hear and may be of subject.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 3:07:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fantomas:
this is really funny. I am German and I have heard many Stories from my Grandfather and Grandmother. This would take days and fill pages. In any case after the War the entire Country was Destroyed and mostly Women and Children where left to clean up "Trümmerfrauen" all the Cities. Most of the Men where either dead or in Prison. They where all proud of what they have accomplished and re-build Germany. It is amazing to see Pictures of before and after. The other thing is now that a lot of people still dwell on the past with what Germany did. Let it go already it is now over 60 years since the War is over. Many other Countries have done evil things - Countries such as Russia and even the US. But nobody speaks of what they have done. I do not understand why but this is what takes place. Anyhow Germans are proud like other people are proud of where they are from. But again Germany / Germans are pretty much singled out for what took place. So I guess most people do not just go around and say I am German or even after the War to say you are German when you where in another Country was most likely not a good idea. Even in today's world not everybody likes Germans. Even in the US I only tell somebody when they ask me because they can detect an accent. Some people give you a look and others strike up a conversation with you. The other thing is that Germany was split in 4 Sections and they had to live under the Rules of the Section Chiefs. I can not imagine how that must have been like but my Grandmother has said many times that it was not easy at all. Especially in Berlin when the Wall was build and the only way Food came in was per the so called "Rosinen Bomber" the Douglas C-54 was the only source for people to get Supplies. In any case not sure if this is what you wanted to hear and may be of subject.


I appreciate this kind of input, especially from a native German. Even one with a condensed paragraph fetish.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 3:18:32 PM EDT
Blues Bros.


Link Posted: 3/6/2010 3:24:25 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Theoderich:



Originally Posted By Fantomas:

this is really funny. I am German and I have heard many Stories from my Grandfather and Grandmother. This would take days and fill pages. In any case after the War the entire Country was Destroyed and mostly Women and Children where left to clean up "Trümmerfrauen" all the Cities. Most of the Men where either dead or in Prison. They where all proud of what they have accomplished and re-build Germany. It is amazing to see Pictures of before and after. The other thing is now that a lot of people still dwell on the past with what Germany did. Let it go already it is now over 60 years since the War is over. Many other Countries have done evil things - Countries such as Russia and even the US. But nobody speaks of what they have done. I do not understand why but this is what takes place. Anyhow Germans are proud like other people are proud of where they are from. But again Germany / Germans are pretty much singled out for what took place. So I guess most people do not just go around and say I am German or even after the War to say you are German when you where in another Country was most likely not a good idea. Even in today's world not everybody likes Germans. Even in the US I only tell somebody when they ask me because they can detect an accent. Some people give you a look and others strike up a conversation with you. The other thing is that Germany was split in 4 Sections and they had to live under the Rules of the Section Chiefs. I can not imagine how that must have been like but my Grandmother has said many times that it was not easy at all. Especially in Berlin when the Wall was build and the only way Food came in was per the so called "Rosinen Bomber" the Douglas C-54 was the only source for people to get Supplies. In any case not sure if this is what you wanted to hear and may be of subject.




I appreciate this kind of input, especially from a native German. Even one with a condensed paragraph fetish.
That was just him translating the German noun that is the answer to your question.






 
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 3:25:26 PM EDT
The Germans got what they deserved, before,during and after WW2.  I just wish America could have killed more,faster.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 3:26:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2010 3:49:20 PM EDT by Theoderich]
Originally Posted By xylo:
The Germans got what they deserved, before,during and after WW2.  I just wish America could have killed more,faster.




Wow.
If I ever want a call out to the pit/rambling, angry IM, I guess all I would have to do is say something positive about the IJA.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 3:28:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2010 3:29:05 PM EDT by delacrue]
I met a german once, really nice guy. When the subject of WW2 came up, he said something that I'll never forget, and which I think pretty much sums up the German people's thoughts about the whole thing.

"I'm not responsible for what happened in the past, but as a German I have a special responsibility to not let it happen again."
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 3:48:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By delacrue:
I met a german once, really nice guy. When the subject of WW2 came up, he said something that I'll never forget, and which I think pretty much sums up the German people's thoughts about the whole thing.

"I'm not responsible for what happened in the past, but as a German I have a special responsibility to not let it happen again."


The difference between East and West Germany. In the East, they were drilled that the evils of the Third Reich weren't their fault since they were all good little communists. In the West it was the opposite. If you look at Germany today.... many Neo-Nazis are from the East. No shared feeling of guilt, thus they can be little goose stepping nazis.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 4:12:14 PM EDT
My mother was German....100% German by blood though born in the US.  She didn't start to speak English until she started to school at age 5.  Even her parents were born in the US but very German.  However, they had zero German nationaistic tendencies.  They were German-catholic Americans.  While mom built bombers in Kansas, her brothers Chuck, Joe, Robert and George were in the US Army in both the Pacific and Europe.  

Mom endured considerable anti-German bigotry from the time of her birth in '21 through WWII.  She married dad (mostly Welch) and raised us without any mention of Germany.  Remember, her grandparents had come to the US before a united Germany existed.  We were not taught German at home and it was not encouraged at school.  As far as mom was concerned were in in descending order:  American, Roman Catholic, military.  She was proud to be a Kansan.

On a side note, her little brother Fred died in the Korean War.  He was a combat medic and died 4/29/51 somewhere along the ironically-name Kansas Line.

Mom said they used to listen to Hitler's speeches and laugh at "that madman."  She said they could not imagine what she thought were civilized Germans would follow that madman into war.

Neither was mom a white supremicist.  We were military.  I never heard her say a single racial slur or talk bad about any group....except the French...who she considered unsanitary from living in Eastern France for three years after the war (56-59) near the Nancy Ord Depot.

She was proud of her identity but it was never about Germany and little about what she refered to as the Reichs Deutsch.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 4:14:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By xylo:
The Germans got what they deserved, before,during and after WW2.  I just wish America could have killed more,faster.


WOW just WOW you must be .....................

It would be the same as I would say to you now - it would be really great that more Americans will be killed in Iraq and Afghanistan or may be even it would have been nice if more would have been killed in Vietnam they sure deserve this and more. You must be a real Racist and very angry. Echt mir fehlen die wort du armselige Mißgeburt.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 5:36:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Insider:


She was proud of her identity but it was never about Germany and little about what she refered to as the Reichs Deutsch.


I find that kind of distressing:
The nation we know as Germany today, while making its share of mistakes and underhanded deeds, accomplished a lot.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 5:45:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Theoderich:
Originally Posted By The_Insider:


She was proud of her identity but it was never about Germany and little about what she refered to as the Reichs Deutsch.


I find that kind of distressing:
The nation we know as Germany today, while making its share of mistakes and underhanded deeds, accomplished a lot.


My mother's people were never part of a unified Germany.  They were Germans who were very anti-nationalist until they became assimilated in the US and became proud Americans.  They were non-racist Germans.
Link Posted: 3/7/2010 7:09:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By delacrue:
I met a german once, really nice guy. When the subject of WW2 came up, he said something that I'll never forget, and which I think pretty much sums up the German people's thoughts about the whole thing.

"I'm not responsible for what happened in the past, but as a German I have a special responsibility to not let it happen again."


This right here is the right attitude. Unfortunately more than a few Germans seem to take this to the extent of: Bad things our ancestors did = We deserve to be an EU puppet state or Turkish colony.
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 7:44:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By xylo:
The Germans got what they deserved, before,during and after WW2.  I just wish America could have killed more,faster.


Raving, ranting, psycho
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 7:46:36 AM EDT
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