In chap 22, there are some pretty harsh punisments handed out, many of which were stoning to death.
Are these rules only for the israelites? Or all Christians? What prevents a literal reading from stoning someone to death today? Where they over ruled? Many things were considered offensive to the eyes of God, are they still?
They were for the Lord's covenant people. At that time it meant that they were primarily applicable to the house of Israel.
The principles that were taught then (the spirit of the law) are still applicable in many ways today.
As for literal application today? No, those punishments are not applicable for two big reasons:
1. The people of Israel were living in a theocracy. The laws of God and government were the same. We do not live in a theocracy today. We, as a society, may wish to apply those principles in our laws, but the punishments are not applicable unless our democratic/republic society chooses to enforce such punishments. That is a part of rendering unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's.
2. Jesus gave a higher law which changed the application of most punishments. The principles of Jesus' teachings are similar, but higher and more spiritual. The punishments, however, are more spiritual too. We will be held more accountable spiritually rather than physically.
"The principles that were taught then..."
The principles and ethics of the Hebew Bible are applicable for all time. The lesson few learn is that spirituality without understanding of the text are doomed to misunderstanding....
Glad a Christian had such insight into the role of the person of Jesus upon Hebrew text.!
It is rather simple from a Jewish POV.
The Hebrew Bible was for the Jewish people. Although it has a universal message. Most of the Law is for the Jewish people only and much of it is only to be practiced when the Jewish people have a proper Temple.
The exchange between G-d and the Jewish people starts like this... I am G-d your Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slavery Then it goes on into what are known as the 10 commandments.
G-d identifies himseld and the qualifications for being his audience. The Way The Jewish people see these words written for Jews, by Jews in the traditional Jewish language is such. If your ancestors were not slaves to pharoah in Egypt, these things are not for you.
You may for whatever reason see it another way.
You're taking offense where none was intended. Indeed, no offense was needed anyway. If I didn't know better, I'd say you look for fights.
Yes, the principles are applicable for all time. However, TxLewis was specifically referring to Deuteronomy so I referred to those laws "that were taught then."
Also, TxLewis asked about application for Christians (as well as Israelites) too as well as modern application, so your sarcastic comment about Christian insight was rude and uncalled for. Just because you reject Christianity doesn't mean you need to troll every Christian response.
[restraining myself from giving you some of your own medicine]
The punishment's you ask about are prescribed by the Law. We are not under the Law but under Grace. The sins are still a stink to God but there's a new way of dealing with them.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Remember the example of the woman caught in adultery . . .
Joh 8: 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Also, recall, that under Christ it's not just the act that's the sin but the thought behind it.
Mat 5: 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment . . .
27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. . . .
The death penalty was given as a protection for God's people. Under the Law there wasn't means to deal with sin among the people but to cut it off — by casting the sinner out or by killing them. That's not the case under the new testament. Through grace God has given us the power to get to the root of the problem — the thoughts behind the sin.
2Co 10: 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
The Messiah was, is, and was always to be...the fullfillment of all of God's Promises to mankind.
As the rabbis used to say, 'Nothing was written in the Scriptures that was not written of Messiah.'
Towards the very end of the 19th Century, they began to apply what had formerly been thought to refer to the Messiah to an envisioned 'new' state of Israel.
Ask any Zionist you happen to see.
They also say Everything is because we (The Jewish people) were slaves in Egypt and The personage of the Jesus narative can not in anyway shape or form be a messiah In otherwords, Judaism says a great many things. You wont find it supporting your position if taken as a whole.
From a Jewish POV everything is, was and will be because if Torah, and that is the ultimate of all of the promises of G-d. I understand you disagree.
Eric, I like your posts, I often disagree with you but I can appriciate your logic. But you are a little out of bounds when you speak on behalf of the jewish people and what we think. You must understand that modern Zionism has its roots in a secular movement that happened to be made up of Jewish people. Traditional Judaism is what it is and has not changed. So, I being a Zionist, and a Traditional Jew, as would other Traditional Jews, Disagree with what you are saying about how Zionists think and what our Zionism is based on. Zionism is just a desire for the Jewish people to have a Jewish state in the Biblical land of Israel. That is all. Traditional Jews still see it as but one step of many. Some Jews who dont ascribe to Traditional Judaism might still be Zionist, but for their own reasons. A group of Jews doesnt make something Jewish. Again, Judaism is what it is.
Originally Posted By neshomamench:
I don't speak on behalf of the Jewish, nor on behalf of the Christians.
I speak only for myself and what I understand to be history.
Who are you talking to?
Certainly not to me.
I understand that the very first Zionists were, for the most part, extremely secular.
Theodor Herzl did not begin the modern Zionist movement because of anti-Semitism as shown in the Dreyfuss Affair.
But this cause united the secular Socialist Jews to the religious ultra-Orthodox Jews.
Surely there were some ultra-Orthodox who railed against the idea of mere man creating the new State, and were content to allow the Messiah to do it, but they were few and far between.
Disagree all you wish.
It won't change a thing.
That is all?
Why not Zanzibar?
Why not BFE?
I understand more than you would like to think.
And being a Christian, I may understand even more than you do.
Tsk, tsk, such a circular argument.
Why even make it?
First of all...there is no such thing as an "Ultra Orthodox" Jew. Seriously. you are either Torah observant or you are not. This is a media type term.
Second, many Orthodox Jews, as a matter of fact perhaps the largest Hassidic Orthodox sect, the Satmars, are VERY anti Israel as it exists today. So you are off base there. Seriously, research it, I assume you a man who likes knowledge. When it comes to the goings on of what Religious Jews are doing, I am more than sure I could clue you in to a few things. Not only is it prevelent but is a serious point of contention among orthodox Jews. The nays are indeed a minority but not the smattering you seem to suggest.
Why Israel? Because this is what G-d promised us. And in the Land of Israel a religious Jew can observe more Torah, Observance of Torah is the reason the Jewish people exist. I am sure Buhddist have a term for their desire to return to Tibet. Israel is the Jewish Nation of our scriptures. Would it not make sense for us to desire a return to it?
You have to understand, Religious Jews do not approach things with the messiah centric thoughts that Christianity see in the Hebrew Bible. Again, everything is about observation of Torah. Messianic things are but one compenent of 13 princaples and everything is secondary to observance of Torah.
Originally Posted By neshomamench:
From Judaism 101:
Who is a Jew?
"A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.
"It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship. See What Is Judaism?"
I understand that Jews do not always see things the same way, but this website is not a 'media' type website.
Yes, I even mentioned in my preceding post that some among the 'ultra-Orthodox' were not happy with the idea of a 'State of Israel' that was not created by the Messiah....or by God, Himself.
Nonsense, I mentioned this 'anti-Israel' stance and I understand it.
As a Christian it makes great sense!
The Throne of David, and even a Greater Than King David, will be set up in Jerusalem some Bright and Shining Morning Without End.
And the Messiah shall sit upon that Throne Forever.
On all that we can agree.
We simply know His Name.
I do, often.
And knowledge of God is uppermost in all that I study.
But not near as much as you would think.
Especially on the more important topics.
There are many serious contentions among orthodox Jews.
This is just another such disagreement.
You can observe the Torah on the moon, if you are there.
But there is something more that is bringing the Jews back to the Holy Land.
Something more important than the Torah, the Law, or all the Prophets who ever lived and spoke 'Thus sayeth the Lord.'
And that is the Lord Himself.
If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee:
Or does your Torah not contain the 30th Chapter of Deuteronomy?
But whether you are righteous, or a Jew, or among the Elect, Who knows?
I have no idea.
It makes sense to me, but ONLY from a Biblical standpoint.
And when I hear that some of you do not accept this imperative...well, it makes me wonder about the state of Judaism today.
I understand that totally.
Some of the Jews wished to have a 'Greater Than King David' Messiah to come and cut the throat of every Roman and Gentile on the planet, and to make any surviving Gentiles their slaves.
But that wasn't quite the Image or Teachings of the Messiah Who came to them in the First Century of this Era.
So He was rejected by political Israel, as was foretold.
Yes, I quite understand that strict observance of the Torah is the be-all and end-all of your religion.
At least among the Orthodox. And ultra-Orthodox.
But there is more to this than you presently imagine.
Again, their is no such thing as an "ultra-Orthodox" Jew. You are either Torah observant or you are not. If you think there is a difference, I ask you to tell me what the difference between an Orthodox Jew and an Ultra-Orthodox Jew is.
Second, Unless you have spent time in a Chader or Yeshiva, you dont know as much as you would like to think. You can know Jews, be friends with Jews, work for Jews or go bowlling with Jews. You can read about Jews, play on internet forums with Jews, Study Jews and get College Degrees in Judaism. That still leaves you on the outside and you really seem like you are trying to come across as someone who is really in the know on things of a Religious Jewish nature. In all honesty, the very words you post about things of a Jewish nature are some of the more educated Christian party lines on Judaism and Jewish things. Again, Jewish things from a non Jewish POV.
As far as more than I can imagin, again, from your POV. I know exactly what traditional Judaism is. seing it from a non Jewish POV as you do does not Change what Judaism is. We are to people with strongly different POVs on the matter.
Originally Posted By neshomamench:
Allow me to refer you to Judaism 101
A website organized by some of your co-religionists, not mine.
Ask them the difference, if you wish.
I think they are conservative Jews, but don't hold that against them.
And then there's....
The Zionism And Israel Information Center
Read their encyclopeia's article about....'Neturei Karta'....which begins....
"Neturei Karta - (Aramaic Literally, "keepers of the gates.") (so called - "Jews against Zionism") A tiny sect of fanatic ultra-orthodox anti-Zionist Jews who do not recognize the state of Israel. They claim that the Jewish state can only be formed when the Messiah comes."
Hmmm, this website uses the term 'ultra-Orthodox' Jews, as well, thoughout.
What do these Jews know that you don't?
Do you need more examples of Jews speaking of 'ultra-Orthodox'???
I think this is a matter that you and your co-religionists need to settle for yourselves.
Well, let me put it this way - I know as much about Judaism as I deem necessary for me to know about Judaism, and leave it at that.
Apparently some of the folks who spent time in a Chader or Yeshiva disagree with your view that 'ultra-Orthodox' Jews is an erroneous term.
So, when y'all get it decided amongst yourselves, maybe we can discuss this more fully.
Do Jews really talk like this?
Sounds like some of my black friends talking!
None of the Jews I go bowling with talk as you do.
I readily admit that all I know of Judaism I read in the Bible.
And it sure reads differently than what I see in real life.
If you cannot succinctly explain Judaism while standing on one foot, then it is NOT the Faith that G-d would have given to His People.
If you cannot tell of someone who you personally brought to your G-d, then your Faith is unproductive.
If you tell others that they can never know what Judaism really means, then we can easily understand how Judaism is the religion of a mere sliver of the people put on this planet by G-d.
G-d created the Heavens and the Earth and then constrained the meaning of His Creation to a mere handful of people.
Who, small in numbers though they be, can still not agree with each other about their Faith!
More than that IF you count the 'ultra-Orthodox', the Reformed, the Conservative, the Messianic, and the various denominations of Christianity, as having different POVs.
Which I would.
Again Eric, you reply is dancing around the issue, or showing how little you know if Traditional Judaism.
I will say it one last time. Just because something is labled as Jewish does not make it Traditional Judaism. If people that have little to no understanding of Traditional Judaism wish to make claims about it, even if they are Jewish that is there perogotive. That still does not make it traditional Judaism.
Traditional Judaism is what it is, regardless of how you feel about it. And if you are unable to tell what is what, why dont you stop making assertions and start listening. You think I am wrong and you are right, I understand that, and you think your logic is far supirior to mine on the matter, I understand that as well. You think how you approach G-d and how you would have him be is write and that is that. That still doesnt change what Traditional Judaism is.
No matter how much you think an apple is better than an orange, and no matter what the banana tells you, that doesnt change what the orange is. And if you are not an orange, it doesnt matter how much time you spend in florida, you will still not understand an orange as much as another orange.
Again, nesho, I point you to your own co-religionists websites to show how little you all agree on such things...as 'Traditional Judaism.'
I doubt it.
And I will say this one last time, just because YOU say that something is 'Traditional Judaism' does not make it so, either.
I don't speak for Christians.
You cannot possibly speak for Jews.
We can only relate what we know. And what we think we know.
But we can both be sadly mistaken.
Welcome to America!
And that is your view, you do understand that, right?
I have no idea what 'feelings' have to do in any discussion of religion.
No, you don't think that I am right.
But then, you think that the writers of Judaism 101 are wrong, as well, because they and others continuously use the term 'ultra-Orthodox' to describe some of your co-religionists, which you avoid like a ham sandwich.
And you don't like it.
OK., Don't like it.
Preach against it. Make an outcry about it. Excoriate it.
Do as you wish about it.
But it is still there.
I know that there is a thought in there somewhere, but I can't fathom it.
If you are saying that I believe that how I perceive G-d is the one and only way that He is to be truly perceived....and that everyone else is wrong, is simply ludicrous.
But then you appear to be trying to say that, yourself, for your own perceptions of G-d.
Which is equally ludicrous.
You don't say!
But what happens when the oranges of Miami Beach cannot agree on what being an orange in Florida really means?
You don't need to be a banana or an apple to see that as hilarious!
That is addressed by Paul in the NT...
That's the old order... The Impossible Standard, as it were...
The principles still stand as examples of what God expects as righteous living, but the actual system of governance (the Jewish counterpart to Sharia, essentially) is vacated...
It's the same reason that Christians can eat pork, and circumcision is not mandatory (but is still practiced by many, for symbolic reasons)...
"G-d created the Heavens and the Earth and then constrained the meaning of His Creation to a mere handful of people."
"Who, small in numbers though they be, can still not agree with each other about their Faith!"
We have our disagreements. I would dare say Christians are more divided than Jews.
From Genesis, Chapter 22, verses 16-18:
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Where are you?
The Lord couldn't have been talking about a mere sliver of the earth's population.
He must have meant something far beyond what you may have imagined.
To those of you who answered my question, thank you.
Now, on with our regularly scheduled thread hijack.
It is ok to refer to myself as a Zionist Christian?
Eric, you are a spin master. You keep calling people my co religionists in order to support you stance. If someone is not a traditional Jew they are not my co religionist. Again. You understand very little about Traditional Judaism if you think their are that many rifts between all the traditional jews all over the planet.
Do you know what Halacha is? and why that word alone proves the point you are trying to make is just not right? do you know what Minhag is?
Trust me, I have no 'stance' on any dispute or disagreement among Jews.
I am merely demonstrating that there exists a great deal of diverging opinions within Judaism.
You are the one who insists that there is only one 'Traditional Judaism.'
And that depends upon your definition of what Traditional Judaism means.
And again, I know where to find out:
"Orthodoxy is actually made up of several different groups. It includes the modern Orthodox, who have largely integrated into modern society while maintaining observance of halakhah (Jewish Law), the Chasidim, who live separately and dress distinctively (commonly, but erroneously, referred to in the media as the "ultra-Orthodox"), and the Yeshivish Orthodox, who are neither Chasidic nor modern. The Orthodox movements are all very similar in belief, and the differences are difficult for anyone who is not Orthodox to understand. They all believe that G-d gave Moses the whole Torah at Mount Sinai. The "whole Torah" includes both the Written Torah (the first five books of the Bible) and the Oral Torah, an oral tradition interpreting and explaining the Written Torah. They believe that the Torah is true, that it has come down to us intact and unchanged. They believe that the Torah contains 613 mitzvot binding upon Jews but not upon non-Jews. This web site is written primarily from the modern Orthodox point of view. The 2000 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS) performed by the Council of Jewish Federations found that 10% of American Jews identify themselves as Orthodox, including 22% of those who belong to a synagogue."
See what I mean?
There is very little nowadays that cannot be found out and clearly understood.
NOW, if you tell me that only the devout of the 'Traditional' Jews can understand what 'Traditional Judaism' actually is.....then all I can say is that it is not a Faith that G-d would be very pleased with, at all.
His Words are for everyone...or they are for no one.
Literally, 'the path that one walks.' Jewish law. The complete body of rules and practices that Jews are bound to follow, including biblical commandments, commandments instituted by the rabbis, and binding customs. See also Torah, A List of the 613 Mitzvot.
See? There is nothing under the sun that cannot be understood.
But for some reason, you cannot understand this?
Literally, 'custom.' A custom that evolved for worthy religious reasons and has continued long enough to become a binding religious practice. The word is also used more loosely to describe any customary religious practice.
Thanks be to Judaism 101!
Now, do you know what 'Corban' is?
You honestly think a little google and now you have a grasp on it. Hell you even posted something that diasagrees with your stance. The Orthodox movements are all very similar in belief, and the differences are difficult for anyone who is not Orthodox to understand.
Then you go on to make a stance on what G-d would be pleased with and what he wouldnt. Listen, perhaps the box you put G-d in see such things such ways. Traditional Judaism disagrees with you.
Originally Posted By neshomamench:
That's how G-d's Word is...very simple. Devoid of anything that would tend to cause division.
Yes, that's how G-d intended it.
You think I didn't read that before I posted it?
Don't be a schmo !
I believe I know G-d at the very least as well as you do.
And I don't put G-d in a little box that can only be opened by someone chanting a magic formula, as some folks do.
No one, not even by 'tradition', can successfully place G-d in a box.
Again, you have your veiw of what G-d is. Traditional Judaism disagrees with you. You would understand Traditional Judaism better if you would look at it for what it is not how it differs from what you think is right and wrong.
By your own postings, Orthodox Jews of all flavors are pretty similar and you would need to be one to understand the differences. Compair that to Christianity and all of its branches. Who has the upper hand on the simplicity and avoidance of division that you claim G-ds word is supposed to be like?
Originally Posted By neshomamench:
I certainly do.
I would hope so. I would pray so.
No need to, for what I know of Traditional Judaism is sufficient for my purposes.
Just as I am certain that you would say that you know everything about Christianity for your own purposes, as well.
I am a Mason and understand all the little symbols and plays and contrivances that it uses.
They are nice for grown men to consider, but they are not from G-d.
And I perfectly understand what is of men, and what is of G-d.
There is simply no comparison.
Christianity by far.
Avoidance of divisions is not something that comes easily to mankind.
Especially so, when the stakes are so high.
But that is not G-d's fault, but the fault of those who would exalt 'tradition' over the clear and concise Word of G-d.
And let him who is without the first division cast it at the others.
You would be suprised what you dont know bacause of your assertions of what is right or wrong. I for one am not tryign to change your mind on anything. But as my very first post was about, you and your google understanding of things of a traditional Jewish nature are poor at best. Please dont make assertions about what Traditional Judaism is and isnt. Do that about your own faith if you wish but not one you have little understanding of.
I am out. I am going to go enjoy the real world.
Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
No need to, for what I know of Traditional Judaism is sufficient for my purposes.
I do not doubt that at all.
I am pretty certain of my personal limitations.
Hopefully, you are aware of yours, as well.
I know I am.
Nor am I yours, for some men's minds would not change even if Someone arose from the dead to tell them.
I think that's a bit of prophecy.
I understood Judaism long before the Internet was invented and long before 'google' became popluar.
It's pretty easy to understand, actually.
It's what Christianity would be without the Messiah.
As I said earlier, and perhaps you didn't pay attention...
'Welcome To America.'
We have the G-d given right to speak our minds about any subject.
Sorry, but no-can-do.
I will speak of what I wish, as I wish.
And guess what? You have the same freedom.
Nor should you.