[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Question (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/25/2009 8:18:17 PM EDT
| Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Isn't the real question here, do you kchustle, believe that God is both infinitely merciful and just? No. I know that it can not be. If god is infinitely merciful then I to would have a place next to you in heaven. If god is infinitely just than I will not. Both can not be true. I was just wondering what you believe. |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Isn't the real question here, do you kchustle, believe that God is both infinitely merciful and just? No. I know that it can not be. If god is infinitely merciful then I to would have a place next to you in heaven. If god is infinitely just than I will not. Both can not be true. I was just wondering what you believe. What is this response,''If god is infinitely just then I will not.'' What is it that you have done to deserve God's justice? Thanks, SAE |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Yes. And because of this paradox He sent His only Son to die for us in our staid so that our sentence could be carried out freeing the way for us to be in His Presence if only we accept Him. That's what's really cool about the infinite; it can't be comprehended. |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Isn't the real question here, do you kchustle, believe that God is both infinitely merciful and just? No. I know that it can not be. If god is infinitely merciful then I to would have a place next to you in heaven. If god is infinitely just than I will not. Both can not be true. I was just wondering what you believe. What is this response,''If god is infinitely just then I will not.'' What is it that you have done to deserve God's justice? Thanks, SAE Ummm....I don't have faith in his existence. 
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Isn't the real question here, do you kchustle, believe that God is both infinitely merciful and just? No. I know that it can not be. If god is infinitely merciful then I to would have a place next to you in heaven. If god is infinitely just than I will not. Both can not be true. I was just wondering what you believe. What is this response,''If god is infinitely just then I will not.'' What is it that you have done to deserve God's justice? Thanks, SAE Ummm....I don't have faith in his existence.
Why not? Because you are a natural man trying to understand spiritual things? If so, then, it would appear to me that if this concept or belief in a higher power is not realized by you, then it is foolishness and unprofitable for practical living as far as you are concerned right? Thanks, SAE |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Yes. And because of this paradox He sent His only Son to die for us in our staid so that our sentence could be carried out freeing the way for us to be in His Presence if only we accept Him. That's what's really cool about the infinite; it can't be comprehended. I have already been told that Jesus is God by some of your counterparts. So, God made it possible to contradict himself by sacrificing himself (using "himself" because Jesus was human)? Oh and BTW Jesus didn't die for your STEAD he died for your sins according to the bible. If he died in your stead you would not die because he would have taken your place in death. I am of course assuming that you mean stead and not staid (serious or permanent) because your way doesn't make sense. |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Isn't the real question here, do you kchustle, believe that God is both infinitely merciful and just? No. I know that it can not be. If god is infinitely merciful then I to would have a place next to you in heaven. If god is infinitely just than I will not. Both can not be true. I was just wondering what you believe. What is this response,''If god is infinitely just then I will not.'' What is it that you have done to deserve God's justice? Thanks, SAE Ummm....I don't have faith in his existence.
Why not? Because you are a natural man trying to understand spiritual things? If so, then, it would appear to me that if this concept or belief in a higher power is not realized by you, then it is foolishness and unprofitable for practical living as far as you are concerned right? Thanks, SAE My belief was realized and then conciously discarded. I believed, I questioned and I answered that god was not reasonable based on my findings. The bible is full of contradictions and it is the only document that christians can base any of their belief on. If asked you what I was supposed to believe you would tell me to believe in god as represented by the bible. I can not have faith in something that is unreasonable simply by using a flawed document that was created by flawed men. |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Isn't the real question here, do you kchustle, believe that God is both infinitely merciful and just? No. I know that it can not be. If god is infinitely merciful then I to would have a place next to you in heaven. If god is infinitely just than I will not. Both can not be true. I was just wondering what you believe. What is this response,''If god is infinitely just then I will not.'' What is it that you have done to deserve God's justice? Thanks, SAE Ummm....I don't have faith in his existence.
Why not? Because you are a natural man trying to understand spiritual things? If so, then, it would appear to me that if this concept or belief in a higher power is not realized by you, then it is foolishness and unprofitable for practical living as far as you are concerned right? Thanks, SAE My belief was realized and then conciously discarded. I believed, I questioned and I answered that god was not reasonable based on my findings. The bible is full of contradictions and it is the only document that christians can base any of their belief on. If asked you what I was supposed to believe you would tell me to believe in god as represented by the bible. I can not have faith in something that is unreasonable simply by using a flawed document that was created by flawed men. So if this statement you make about men being flawed and that is all men, including yourself and me, then why would you make such a concience decision to discard the existance of God, with what the Bible says is at at stake, speaking or eternal life, or death, based on flawed human understanding? Explain that please because that sounds like you very well may have put yourself at a disadvantage concerning these matters if you are wrong. Thanks, SAE |
| I make decisions in my life based on what is known or can reasoned. You are implying that I should lie to myself and go against everything that makes sense to me because of what will happen to me if you are right. This is the "what do you have to lose" theory of believing which implies that you have everything to lose and I have nothing at all. My answer to you would be that my integrity is at stake. To live what I believe to be a lie for fear of the unkown is to live an empty life. Ultimately it would not get me anywhere anyway because I do not have faith. |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? Yes. And because of this paradox He sent His only Son to die for us in our staid so that our sentence could be carried out freeing the way for us to be in His Presence if only we accept Him. That's what's really cool about the infinite; it can't be comprehended. I have already been told that Jesus is God by some of your counterparts. So, God made it possible to contradict himself by sacrificing himself (using "himself" because Jesus was human)? Oh and BTW Jesus didn't die for your STEAD he died for your sins according to the bible. If he died in your stead you would not die because he would have taken your place in death. I am of course assuming that you mean stead and not staid (serious or permanent) because your way doesn't make sense. Jesus died in our stead, for our sins... Death is a metaphor –– physical death isn't the issue here. Eternal death, separation from God, the penalty for man's sins –– that is the death Jesus died to save us from. Jesus is God, and he is the Son of God. There is no contradiction. |
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He chooses not to understand. He is determined to make God who is infinite, fit into his finite mind. We have given him the answer that we best understand; that is we understand an infinite God as He has revealed Himself to us. Our friend has chosen not to even accept the premise that he like us can not undertand an infinite anything. He is looking for logic and order that fits his mind. God doesn't "fit" into our little rules of logic and order.
Other posters have gone full circle with him. I believe at this point that he is trying to point out to us that we're not thinking with rational minds and that only he is. He misses the whole point that God surpasses all human understanding. We can not prove God's existence anymore than he can prove God does not exist. It is a matter of faith and the OP chooses not to have it. He has chosen to correct my grammar or spelling instead of looking for my answer. He has a low post count. He has posted a question to us that he doesn't want answered. I am through with him. God has an incredible amount of patience. One of my shortcomings is that I do not. Perhaps one day he will open his heart, but for now it doesn't look like it. |
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I missed how death is a metaphor for something. I would like you to detail your argument about death vs.eternal death. It seems redundant since a limited death does not exist to my estimation. Physical death is only the death of the body. The eternal soul lives on. Spiritual death is separation from God. "The wages of sin are death" refers to physical death, as a metaphor for the spiritual death we bring upon ourselves when we reject God. This is the death Jesus died to save us from –– all men must die a physical death. |
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He chooses not to understand. He is determined to make God who is infinite, fit into his finite mind. We have given him the answer that we best understand; that is we understand an infinite God as He has revealed Himself to us. Our friend has chosen not to even accept the premise that he like us can not undertand an infinite anything. He is looking for logic and order that fits his mind. God doesn't "fit" into our little rules of logic and order. Other posters have gone full circle with him. I believe at this point that he is trying to point out to us that we're not thinking with rational minds and that only he is. He misses the whole point that God surpasses all human understanding. We can not prove God's existence anymore than he can prove God does not exist. It is a matter of faith and the OP chooses not to have it. He has chosen to correct my grammar or spelling instead of looking for my answer. He has a low post count. He has posted a question to us that he doesn't want answered. I am through with him. God has an incredible amount of patience. One of my shortcomings is that I do not. Perhaps one day he will open his heart, but for now it doesn't look like it. It is not that I choose to not understand something and I am not trying to make god fit in to anything. I simply disagree with your point of view that god exists and request more information. The post below yours answers a question that I asked in a very reasonable manner. Also, I am not arguing whether anyone can understand something infinite (although your post says that you can as a christian). I choose to take what is presented as evidence and make a rebuttal. If we go full circle it is because I eventually ask a question that does not have an answer other than faith (sorry if this makes you mad but it is the nature of your belief system). I corrected your grammar and spelling to make your argument make sense. I have a low post count because everyone has a low post count until they post a lot and you are telling me that I should not be posting because we disagree. My question does not need an answer it was requesting your opinion or understanding of the topic (next time I will title it opinion). If you have lost your patience with me then so be it. My heart is open and so is my mind. With all of the criticism I have failed to see where you were trying to understand my point of view. You criticize me for questioning you but you have done nothing but disregard me as narrow minded. Sorry if I have broken some rule that discourages two opinions. |
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I missed how death is a metaphor for something. I would like you to detail your argument about death vs.eternal death. It seems redundant since a limited death does not exist to my estimation. Physical death is only the death of the body. The eternal soul lives on. Spiritual death is separation from God. "The wages of sin are death" refers to physical death, as a metaphor for the spiritual death we bring upon ourselves when we reject God. This is the death Jesus died to save us from –– all men must die a physical death. thank you. |
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My belief was realized and then conciously discarded. I believed, I questioned and I answered that god was not reasonable based on my findings. The bible is full of contradictions and it is the only document that christians can base any of their belief on. If asked you what I was supposed to believe you would tell me to believe in god as represented by the bible. I can not have faith in something that is unreasonable simply by using a flawed document that was created by flawed men. If you've decided that the document is flawed and that you cannot believe what it says, what do you hope to accomplish by questioning people who believe in it? Our answers will be based on that document you've already dismissed, so other than your stated desire for debates I see no purpose in what you're doing here. I think you'd do better with a "Guns are bad" topic in GD. FWIW - You described yourself as a troll in another thread, and that's how I perceive you. |
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My belief was realized and then conciously discarded. I believed, I questioned and I answered that god was not reasonable based on my findings. The bible is full of contradictions and it is the only document that christians can base any of their belief on. If asked you what I was supposed to believe you would tell me to believe in god as represented by the bible. I can not have faith in something that is unreasonable simply by using a flawed document that was created by flawed men. If you've decided that the document is flawed and that you cannot believe what it says, what do you hope to accomplish by questioning people who believe in it? Our answers will be based on that document you've already dismissed, so other than your stated desire for debates I see no purpose in what you're doing here. I think you'd do better with a "Guns are bad" topic in GD. FWIW - You described yourself as a troll in another thread, and that's how I perceive you. +1 
''Open the pod bay door Hal.'' |
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My belief was realized and then conciously discarded. I believed, I questioned and I answered that god was not reasonable based on my findings. The bible is full of contradictions and it is the only document that christians can base any of their belief on. If asked you what I was supposed to believe you would tell me to believe in god as represented by the bible. I can not have faith in something that is unreasonable simply by using a flawed document that was created by flawed men. If you've decided that the document is flawed and that you cannot believe what it says, what do you hope to accomplish by questioning people who believe in it? Our answers will be based on that document you've already dismissed, so other than your stated desire for debates I see no purpose in what you're doing here. I think you'd do better with a "Guns are bad" topic in GD. FWIW - You described yourself as a troll in another thread, and that's how I perceive you. the fact of the matter is that a vast majority of the world is religious. most of the people in this forum appear to be christian and so christianity is what is discussed. what i hope to accomplish is learn from you your beliefs because it interests me. i shared your faith for a long time but once i started finding answers to my questions and changed my belief system i stopped being able to understand where you are coming from. if i am a troll because i think that the best way to get at the crux of your belief is to debate your belief then i am a troll. after all, your perception is your reality. |
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You said you'd post things, even if you didn't believe them, to elicit a response. That is part of the definition of a troll in the CoC, and is not based on my perception or reality. if there is a rebuttal to your opinion i can present the question if i am curious about the answer. just because i don't believe something doesn't mean that it isn't relative to the conversation. |
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Ok Kc...I will try to answer your query without the bible. First, what DO you beleive? Do you beleive you will physically die ? Do you beleive that this world was created from nothing and just happened to appear in the right way, with the right materials, in the right time for life to start on a molecular level- resulting in us, without some outside force? Do you believe there is a spark inside of us, a life force many refer to as a soul? I will reply later and continue this when you have decided these questions.
"Patience is a virtue: I must be a saint dealing with my children then!" |
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Ok Kc...I will try to answer your query without the bible. First, what DO you beleive? Do you beleive you will physically die ? Do you beleive that this world was created from nothing and just happened to appear in the right way, with the right materials, in the right time for life to start on a molecular level- resulting in us, without some outside force? Do you believe there is a spark inside of us, a life force many refer to as a soul? I will reply later and continue this when you have decided these questions. "Patience is a virtue: I must be a saint dealing with my children then!" I believe we die. I believe that it is just as likely that there was a big bang and that we eventually evolved once the conditions would support our existance as a god blinking us into existance. |
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Quoted: Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? the usual terms are Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omnibenevolence nothing in there about infinitely just. I still think you can only have two of those. as far as infinitely merciful and infinitely just, I have no problem reconciling them as long as hell isn't eternal punishment (finite crimes resulting in infinite punishment is not just) hell as a place of purification (rehabilitation) or destruction (death penalty for the soul) would fit fine with being infinitely merciful and infinitely just. You'll find many here who disagree with me on this because God is sovereign. Anything he says is just is just, so its kind of self fulfilling :) |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? the usual terms are Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omnibenevolence nothing in there about infinitely just. I still think you can only have two of those. as far as infinitely merciful and infinitely just, I have no problem reconciling them as long as hell isn't eternal punishment (finite crimes resulting in infinite punishment is not just) hell as a place of purification (rehabilitation) or destruction (death penalty for the soul) would fit fine with being infinitely merciful and infinitely just. You'll find many here who disagree with me on this because God is sovereign. Anything he says is just is just, so its kind of self fulfilling :) The first part of your quote was what I was getting around to. However, I think that it is generally omniscience instead of omnibenevolence. |
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ok then...what if it was designed to be created by the Big Bang (carefull here for my degree is in earth and biological sciences) and then slowly progress to the point where we were 'started' as it were on the earth. I would point out, that we would have never survived during the time of the dinosaurs on the earth as the temperature and humidity was beyond even what it is at this time- even the insects were larger than normal because the mass of the air was far greater. The amazing thing is that we have fossil fuels because of it that run our countries. There are also 6 somewhat distinct periods in the earth timeline ending with us.
Now, I will try to address the actual question of this post. Respectfully, I see that you have personal issues with the concept of God and religion in general and I understand that. We all have questions and we expect answers. God is infinitely just. He expects us to be responsible for our actions. He expects us to also willingly follow his plan for salvation. That means accept it and do what is asked of you. Sometimes what you are asked to doisn't obvious. Sometimes it feels like there is no guidance. A very wise man told me once that one must wait on the Lord with a still and quiet heart in prayer. I asked him what he meant specifically, cause I am like that .LOL. He saidpray and read the bible everyday and often thru out the day - then shut up and listen. Listen for the 'quiet still voice' that tells you what is right to do. Okay, so I did it. Seemed like it took for ever. Then, funny thing, I started to feel what was right and needed to be done. Stuff worked out better in work and home. Simple stuff, really. Almost sounds silly in a way. I have yet to actually hear a voice per se, so I guess i have a long way still to go. God is also infinitely merciful. He understands our hearts and minds and knows what we need. Not what we want but need. He is merciful because he gave up his Son to be an intersessor between him and us ('...ask in my name of my Father in heaven..") and become a sacrifice for what we inherited and we have done (sin). We were born with the sin of Adam, so it is said. This seems to me to be dissobediance- they were told not to do one thing...and they went ahead and did it. They were given the knowledge of the difference between good and evil as a result. You have this in yourself and in all of us. Some chose to ignore it. But we all have it. This was the only sin it could be said we inherited. It is not a bad thing though. We are able to make choices because of it, you understand. God already had something in mind as evidenced by telling Adam to begin sacrificing the lamb on an alter (Christ literally means "Sacrifice'). This sacrifice was to represent what would come. This was the Plan of Salvation God had in store for us as part of his mercy. As I do not beleive it ends when we die- I have no fear of death as to this earth. When my time comes i will welcome it- I will not be going easily tho!! LOL. Think of all this as a parents' love for their child. As a parent, You want the best for your child. You want them to grow up strong and healthy and be a doctor or a lawyer or just a good garbage man that takes care of his family. But, they make stupid mistakes, they get into drugs, alcohol, prostitution, are in prison. Do you hate them? No. You love them still. You don't like what they do and want them to do what is right even tho it hurts them and you. Would you welcome them into your arms? Yes. God is like that. He IS our Heavenly Father, with power and glory and love all wrapped up in the mantle of our Creator as well. If he says, I will punish you if you disobey me, then you stop doing what you are doing and go to him, he will welcome you. Mercy vs Justice. Do the crime- do the time. Then a welcome home party as it were ( I am thinking of the story of the prodigal son here- one who was lost and now is found- welcomed back into his father's house as if royalty). Hope all this jibber jabber helps understand some. |
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Ok Kc...I will try to answer your query without the bible. First, what DO you beleive? Do you beleive you will physically die ? Do you beleive that this world was created from nothing and just happened to appear in the right way, with the right materials, in the right time for life to start on a molecular level- resulting in us, without some outside force? Do you believe there is a spark inside of us, a life force many refer to as a soul? I will reply later and continue this when you have decided these questions. "Patience is a virtue: I must be a saint dealing with my children then!" I have a harder time believing that nothing created this world than something created it, but to be fair, it's reasonable that if space is endless, and there are in fact countless stars, that things would line up as they needed to for life to exist somewhere. It only has to happen 1 time for this world to eist, and if there really are countless stars, the odds aren't impossible at all. It would be likely that if there are that many stars, that there's other places with life to, although likely a lot different. |
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Do you believe god to be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just? the usual terms are Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omnibenevolence nothing in there about infinitely just. I still think you can only have two of those. as far as infinitely merciful and infinitely just, I have no problem reconciling them as long as hell isn't eternal punishment (finite crimes resulting in infinite punishment is not just) hell as a place of purification (rehabilitation) or destruction (death penalty for the soul) would fit fine with being infinitely merciful and infinitely just. You'll find many here who disagree with me on this because God is sovereign. Anything he says is just is just, so its kind of self fulfilling :) So dino you believe some people could go to he!! for a short amount of time and then get a 2nd chance, or something? Is that specifically the catholic belief of purgatory that you agree with? I disagree about the last comment, it doesn't matter if God is in charge and has all the say or not, if good is good and evil is bad, then God can't just change the actually meaning to suit different actions. Especially if God has instilled in us an understanding of good and evil, ect. as the bible says he has. If God intends to hold people accountable enough to either go to heaven or he!! based on premises that people know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong, then he can't just up and change those meanings to justify his actions or ways. |
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ok then...what if it was designed to be created by the Big Bang (carefull here for my degree is in earth and biological sciences) and then slowly progress to the point where we were 'started' as it were on the earth. I would point out, that we would have never survived during the time of the dinosaurs on the earth as the temperature and humidity was beyond even what it is at this time- even the insects were larger than normal because the mass of the air was far greater. The amazing thing is that we have fossil fuels because of it that run our countries. There are also 6 somewhat distinct periods in the earth timeline ending with us. Now, I will try to address the actual question of this post. Respectfully, I see that you have personal issues with the concept of God and religion in general and I understand that. We all have questions and we expect God is infinitely just. He expects us to be responsible for our actions. He expects us to also willingly follow his plan for salvation. That means accept it and do what is asked of you. Sometimes what you are asked to doisn't obvious. Sometimes it feels like there is no guidance. A very wise man told me once that one must wait on the Lord with a still and quiet heart in prayer. I asked him what he meant specifically, cause I am like that .LOL. He saidpray and read the bible everyday and often thru out the day - then shut up and listen. Listen for the 'quiet still voice' that tells you what is right to do.answers. Okay, so I did it. Seemed like it took for ever. Then, funny thing, I started to feel what was right and needed to be done. Stuff worked out better in work and home. Simple stuff, really. Almost sounds silly in a way. I have yet to actually hear a voice per se, so I guess i have a long way still to go. God is also infinitely merciful. He understands our hearts and minds and knows what we need. Not what we want but need. He is merciful because he gave up his Son to be an intersessor between him and us ('...ask in my name of my Father in heaven..") and become a sacrifice for what we inherited and we have done (sin). We were born with the sin of Adam, so it is said. This seems to me to be dissobediance- they were told not to do one thing...and they went ahead and did it. They were given the knowledge of the difference between good and evil as a result. You have this in yourself and in all of us. Some chose to ignore it. But we all have it. This was the only sin it could be said we inherited. It is not a bad thing though. We are able to make choices because of it, you understand. God already had something in mind as evidenced by telling Adam to begin sacrificing the lamb on an alter (Christ literally means "Sacrifice'). This sacrifice was to represent what would come. This was the Plan of Salvation God had in store for us as part of his mercy. As I do not beleive it ends when we die- I have no fear of death as to this earth. When my time comes i will welcome it- I will not be going easily tho!! LOL. Think of all this as a parents' love for their child. As a parent, You want the best for your child. You want them to grow up strong and healthy and be a doctor or a lawyer or just a good garbage man that takes care of his family. But, they make stupid mistakes, they get into drugs, alcohol, prostitution, are in prison. Do you hate them? No. You love them still. You don't like what they do and want them to do what is right even tho it hurts them and you. Would you welcome them into your arms? Yes. God is like that. He IS our Heavenly Father, with power and glory and love all wrapped up in the mantle of our Creator as well. If he says, I will punish you if you disobey me, then you stop doing what you are doing and go to him, he will welcome you. Mercy vs Justice. Do the crime- do the time. Then a welcome home party as it were ( I am thinking of the story of the prodigal son here- one who was lost and now is found- welcomed back into his father's house as if royalty). Hope all this jibber jabber helps understand some. As someone else wrote, the Bible says "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy". Another verse to consider is "Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven" Then there's a saying that says something like many are called, but few are "chosen". The Bible indicates "God hardens people's hearts" These verses and teachings indicate to me that while salvation might be there, it's simply not there for some or even many and there's nothing those people can do to receive it, and that is not those people's faults. That is not just either. But that quiet still voice is your own when you admit it. I'd enjoy reading from anyone who says God literally speaks to them. Some other topics going on on this message board where people suggest that God doesn't interfere with our lives here, does he or doesn't he, obviously you agree he does. |
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How's it going tonight barkley-addict. Are you feeling a little better this evening as opposed to the other night? Thanks, SAE  I didn't feel bad the other day, my mind is just clearer to write what I feel sometimes more so than other times. Man, your tell'in me! Here's me on a good day as it progresses,        
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How's it going tonight barkley-addict. Are you feeling a little better this evening as opposed to the other night? Thanks, SAE I didn't feel bad the other day, my mind is just clearer to write what I feel sometimes more so than other times. Man, your tell'in me! Here's me on a good day as it progresses,
probably has something to do with texas. |
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How's it going tonight barkley-addict. Are you feeling a little better this evening as opposed to the other night? Thanks, SAE I didn't feel bad the other day, my mind is just clearer to write what I feel sometimes more so than other times. Man, your tell'in me! Here's me on a good day as it progresses,
probably has something to do with texas. Yeah, and last time I checked WV didn't stand for west vermont either! edit:you know you had that one com'in too,now didn't you brutha.
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Actually I've never heard that 1 before, what's wrong with vermont? Beautiful state, but hotter than wv in the summer and lots more bugs. My mother asked me what vermont was like and I said it's like wv without rednecks.
I don't have anything against texas, my brother lives there. |
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Justice is what we deserve. Mercy is not getting it. Noone's done anything to deserve eternal punishment. It doesn't even make sense to punish people at all just because they aren't as good as God. "I'm God, ...you're not, you must be punished...." A servant is not concerned about his position or about the status of his master. The master speaks and the servant obeys. If the master speaks and the servant disobeys, then many stripes will be layed across his back. If the master speaks again and the sevant disobeys a second time, then that servant will be sold into another master's hand. And that servant will wail and weep because his new master's hand will be harsh and heavy upon him. For now that servant will know the compassion that his former master had for him. For now he doesn't even have a place to lay his head. |
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Justice is what we deserve. Mercy is not getting it. Noone's done anything to deserve eternal punishment. It doesn't even make sense to punish people at all just because they aren't as good as God. "I'm God, ...you're not, you must be punished...." A servant is not concerned about his position or about the status of his master. The master speaks and the servant obeys. If the master speaks and the servant disobeys, then many stripes will be layed across his back. If the master speaks again and the sevant disobeys a second time, then that servant will be sold into another master's hand. And that servant will wail and weep because his new master's hand will be harsh and heavy upon him. For now that servant will know the compassion that his former master had for him. For now he doesn't even have a place to lay his head. So this is according to who? Seems more like the rules of some tyrant slave owning task master than a god who supossedly created creation to enjoy his fellowship and share his goodness with. Since we're on the subject of that way of thinking, what did the animals do wrong? What was their disobedience? They endure the most suffering and pain on earth, is that justice to? |
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Quoted: So this is according to who? Seems more like the rules of some tyrant slave owning task master than a god who supossedly created creation to enjoy his fellowship and share his goodness with... IMHO it seems more like the Creator having utter dominion over his creation. YMMV. Romans 9:13-24 (KJV) 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? |
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So this is according to who? Seems more like the rules of some tyrant slave owning task master than a god who supossedly created creation to enjoy his fellowship and share his goodness with... IMHO it seems more like the Creator having utter dominion over his creation. YMMV. Romans 9:13-24 (KJV) 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
eta Less I even dwell on the sheer hypocrisy of the Biblical, christian messages such as that Jesus died for all, all you have to do is believe in the name of Jesus, knock and the door will be opened, seek and you will find, much less that God desires that none should fall..... I don't argue that at all, just don't proclaim that that's fair or good to those not chosen, or that it's their fault if they don't make in into Heaven, or that free will actually matters for anything. It's not that you or I differ on the power or authority of God if there is a God, it's just that you just choose to lable injustice and unfairness and bad, just, fair and good, (and likely much more out of fear than anything else), I just have the courage and the rationale to label it what it really is. realistically in that avatar of yours, your not on your knees begging for mercy because you love God, you're on your knees begging for mercy because if you can't please that God enough he'll burn you alive for eternity. christians are in denial of what that God is really like, but then he'll always be considered good to the few he actually treats good. But the story isn't any different than any earthly story about a king, his select few living good and above the rest in the castle amidst a kingdom of a suffering and afflicted majority.. |
