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Posted: 8/13/2005 1:23:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 1:24:44 AM EDT by ThreatResponse]
How soon we forget.


link
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:24:29 AM EDT
Why would you need to take a throwing star with you on a plane??
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:27:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
Why would you need to take a throwing star with you on a plane??



Incase ninjas attack you,
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:29:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 1:29:37 AM EDT by Lumpy196]

Originally Posted By ThreatResponse:
How soon we forget.





Yes, lets keep free Americans completely unarmed on aircraft....
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:32:29 AM EDT
The TSA is struggling with new cuts in the screener workforce imposed by Congress while its new leaders hope to improve the agency's poor reputation among air travelers by introducing more customer-friendly measures.

That about says it all. Congress and the TSA will sacrifice security in exchange for happier airline travelers.

This country is really fucked.

HS1
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:35:08 AM EDT
"It also recommends that certain categories of passengers be exempt from airport security screening, such as members of Congress, airline pilots, Cabinet members, state governors, federal judges, high-ranking military officers and people with top-secret security clearances"


Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:44:09 AM EDT
Feds may ease airline security measures
TSA mulls proposal to allow knives, throwing stars, arrows onboard

By Sara Kehaulani Goo
Aug. 12, 2005
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8917950/
The new head of the Transportation Security Administration has called for a broad review of the nation's air security system to update the agency's approach to threats and reduce checkpoint hassles for passengers.

Edmund S. "Kip" Hawley, an assistant secretary of homeland security, directed his staff to propose changes in how the agency screens 2 million passengers a day. The staff's first set of recommendations, detailed in an Aug. 5 document, includes proposals to lift the ban on various carry-on items such as scissors, razor blades and knives less than five inches long. It also proposes that passengers no longer routinely be required to remove their shoes at security checkpoints.

Agency officials plan to meet this month to consider the proposals, which would require Hawley's approval to go into effect.

Since his confirmation in June, Hawley has told his staff that he would reevaluate security measures put in place since the terrorist attacks in 2001 and ensure that they make sense, given today's threats. The TSA is struggling with new cuts in the screener workforce imposed by Congress while its new leaders hope to improve the agency's poor reputation among air travelers by introducing more customer-friendly measures. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff signaled the effort when he announced that the agency would eliminate a requirement that forced passengers to remain in their seats during the first and last 30 minutes of flights using Reagan National Airport.

"The process is designed to stimulate creative thinking and challenge conventional beliefs," said TSA spokesman Mark O. Hatfield Jr. "In the end, it will allow us to work smarter and better as we secure America's transportation system."

Threats, searches reassessed
The TSA memo proposes to minimize the number of passengers who must be patted down at checkpoints. It also recommends that certain categories of passengers be exempt from airport security screening, such as members of Congress, airline pilots, Cabinet members, state governors, federal judges, high-ranking military officers and people with top-secret security clearances.

The proposal also would allow ice picks, throwing stars and bows and arrows on flights. Allowing those items was suggested after a risk evaluation was conducted about which items posed the most danger.

If approved, only passengers who set off walk-through metal detectors or are flagged by a computer screening system will have to remove their shoes at security checkpoints. The proposal also would give security screeners the discretion to ask certain passengers "presenting reasonably suspicious behavior or threat characteristics" to remove their shoes.

The proposal also would give screeners discretion in determining whether to pat down passengers. For example, screeners would not have to pat down "those persons whose outermost garments closely conform to the natural contour of the body."

The memo also calls for a new formula to replace the set of computer-screening rules that select passengers for more scrutiny. Currently, the system commonly flags passengers who book one-way tickets or modify travel plans at the last minute. The new TSA plan would give TSA managers assigned to each major airport the authority to de-select a passenger who has been picked out by a computer system.

Proposals draw mixed reviews
Some security analysts praised the agency's proposal, saying that security screeners spend too much time trying to find nail scissors and not enough time focused on today's biggest threat: a suicide bomber boarding an airplane. The TSA has very limited capability to detect explosives under a person's clothing, for example, and is trying to roll out more high-tech machines that can protect against such threats.

K. Jack Riley, a homeland security expert at Rand Corp., said hardened cockpit doors, air marshals and stronger public vigilance will prevent another 9/11-style hijacking. "Frankly, the preeminent security challenge at this point is keeping explosives off the airplane," Riley said. The TSA's ideas, he said, "recognize the reality that we know that air transportation security has changed post-9/11. Most of these rules don't contribute to security."

Douglas R. Laird, former head of security for Northwest Airlines, said the proposal was a step backward. Laird said exempting certain categories of passengers from security screening would be dangerous because trusted groups have occasionally abused the privilege. "In an effort to be customer friendly, they're forgetting that their primary requirement is to keep airplanes safe," Laird said. "Either you screen everybody or why screen anybody?"
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:46:52 AM EDT
Is that five inches total length or blade length like most laws are written?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:46:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
The TSA is struggling with new cuts in the screener workforce imposed by Congress while its new leaders hope to improve the agency's poor reputation among air travelers by introducing more customer-friendly measures.

That about says it all. Congress and the TSA will sacrifice security in exchange for happier airline travelers.

This country is really fucked.

HS1



Maybe the country needs to quit being a bunch of panseys and arm themselves. that way we dont need tsa government filth doing anything!
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:57:04 AM EDT
That's good

I hope it includes tools also.
Last time I couldn't bring this on the plane
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:58:43 AM EDT
Wait, wait.. is ARFCOM actually complaining about the TSA allowing us to legally arm ourselves better on planes?

Is this the same ARFCOM that argued about how 9/11 would probably have been different if the passengers of those flights had firearms?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:01:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
Wait, wait.. is ARFCOM actually complaining about the TSA allowing us to legally arm ourselves better on planes?

Is this the same ARFCOM that argued about how 9/11 would probably have been different if the passengers of those flights had firearms?



Go figure.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:02:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
Wait, wait.. is ARFCOM actually complaining about the TSA allowing us to legally arm ourselves better on planes?

Is this the same ARFCOM that argued about how 9/11 would probably have been different if the passengers of those flights had firearms?



Looks like it is about 50\50
I am pretty sure it is illegal to carry around a throwing star in TX so I don't see how or why
they should let people carry them on planes, they are probably illegal in most states(?)

But, I would not ever argue with any law that says I CAN carry my police model spyderco
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:29:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ThreatResponse:
How soon we forget.



How soon we forget what exactly?

That it used to be legal, except a kneejerk reaction after 9/11 is why they were banned?

What happened on 9/11 had nothing to do with the weapons used and everything to do with how people onboard airplanes and otherwise have been conditioned to just comply with attackers.

If you believe that knives on airplanes cause terrorism then you must believe that boxcutters are the deadliest terror weapons ever created.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:34:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
The TSA is struggling with new cuts in the screener workforce imposed by Congress while its new leaders hope to improve the agency's poor reputation among air travelers by introducing more customer-friendly measures.

That about says it all. Congress and the TSA will sacrifice security in exchange for happier airline travelers.

This country is really fucked.



The government shouldnt be involved at all, the TSA is just one big fucking waste of taxpayer money.

The freemarket should decide.

If people dont feel safe on airplanes then they wont fly and airliners lose money.

If airlines want to assure people that its safe to fly then they will take care of thier own security. Those that are successful will keep customers happy and be secure, those that fail will lose customers and hell perhaps they will have some incidents, and they will go out of business.

The freemarket can solve this problem without government interference.

I currently would not fly because I neither think its safe, nor do I wish to pay a rediculous ammount of money to do so only to have myself subjected to the current rediculous security precautions.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:45:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 2:48:59 AM EDT by ChrisLe]

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
The TSA is struggling with new cuts in the screener workforce imposed by Congress while its new leaders hope to improve the agency's poor reputation among air travelers by introducing more customer-friendly measures.

That about says it all. Congress and the TSA will sacrifice security in exchange for happier airline travelers.

This country is really fucked.



Nope. This Country was fucked the minute three entire plane loads of people allowed worthless terrorists to take over and hijack their planes with nothing more than boxcutters.....Our Country is entirely too pussified, conditioned and pampered.....
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:48:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ThreatResponse:
How soon we forget.


link





you do realize that if anyone attempts to hijack an airplane mid-flight now with a small little knife, everyone on board is going to think 9/11 and overrun and kill that mutherf*cker.

the only reason it worked then was everyone expected to be landing safely somewhere. people know different these days.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:52:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 2:54:38 AM EDT by NAM]
100% truth: When i boarded for Iraq, We were searched as usual. Lighters and knives were not allowed. Rifles were carry on. lol....


Also, they filmed a top 10 here for David Letterman, Top 10 things to know if you're comgin to BIAP. Number 1 was:

"1. You can’t bring nail clippers on our aircraft, but an M-16 and grenade launcher is considered carry-on luggage. "


Link Posted: 8/13/2005 3:00:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:
100% truth: When i boarded for Iraq, We were searched as usual. Lighters and knives were not allowed. Rifles were carry on. lol....
Also, they filmed a top 10 here for David Letterman, Top 10 things to know if you're comgin to BIAP. Number 1 was:
"1. You can’t bring nail clippers on our aircraft, but an M-16 and grenade launcher is considered carry-on luggage. "


Was ammo allowed on?
Were you searched for it?
I'm hoping the answer is No and Yes.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 3:09:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ATNT:
Was ammo allowed on?
Were you searched for it?
I'm hoping the answer is No and Yes.



honestly can't say. Mags were not in weapons, but did have buttstock pouches.

My rifle was locked in a pelican case, as the first leg of the journey was mostly civilian. But everyone that got on at Norfolk handcarried their weapons.

Heh... it's not often you hear a stewardess say "remember when placing rifls under your seat, point the muzzle towards the fuselage."

i kidna got a kick out of that.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 3:16:08 AM EDT

The TSA's ideas, he said, "recognize the reality that we know that air transportation security has changed post-9/11. Most of these rules don't contribute to security."




Wow. A government official admitted this?

We've never been safer, just poorer paying for it and more frustrated dealing with the hassle.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 3:54:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 3:55:58 AM EDT by Kharn]
If they allow knives back on the planes, the first thing that will happen during any hijacking is 20-30 men stand up, draw their knives and charge. You gotta remember, the Sept. 11 hijackers used box cutters with 1" blades, not much of a knife, it all counted on nobody resisting. Now days, everyone will resist.


"It also recommends that certain categories of passengers be exempt from airport security screening, such as members of Congress, airline pilots, Cabinet members, state governors, federal judges, high-ranking military officers and people with top-secret security clearances"
How would they verify who has a top secret clearance? But then, if it happened, I might try to get my project to let me go through the anal probe to get it...

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:16:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:
"It also recommends that certain categories of passengers be exempt from airport security screening, such as members of Congress, airline pilots, Cabinet members, state governors, federal judges, high-ranking military officers and people with top-secret security clearances"





Ever seen the drunken stuidity that goes on in an MI barracks? A TS clearance is not a reason to exempt anyone
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:25:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:

Originally Posted By NAM:
"It also recommends that certain categories of passengers be exempt from airport security screening, such as members of Congress, airline pilots, Cabinet members, state governors, federal judges, high-ranking military officers and people with top-secret security clearances"





Ever seen the drunken stuidity that goes on in an MI barracks? A TS clearance is not a reason to exempt anyone



You've been here: (?)

Riley Barracks
Ft Huachuca, AZ
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:30:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 4:31:11 AM EDT by PSYWAR1-0]

Originally Posted By RED_5:
You've been here: (?)

Riley Barracks
Ft Huachuca, AZ



Nope, just Bragg and DLI, and then there was this hot Blonde CI agent in Panama
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:30:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By ATNT:
Was ammo allowed on?
Were you searched for it?
I'm hoping the answer is No and Yes.



honestly can't say. Mags were not in weapons, but did have buttstock pouches.
My rifle was locked in a pelican case, as the first leg of the journey was mostly civilian. But everyone that got on at Norfolk handcarried their weapons.
Heh... it's not often you hear a stewardess say "remember when placing rifls under your seat, point the muzzle towards the fuselage."
i kidna got a kick out of that.



Thanks for the reply.
I am quite surprised.
Then thinking again, if someone tried something, even with a rifle and ammo, the other people on board would charge him.
I wonder if the rifle went off, would it manage to pierce the fuselage?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:31:26 AM EDT
So far this year I have flown about 30,000 miles. If you ever had to watch these primates try to monkey fuck your gun case because they have ZERO knowledge on guns or gun safety or watch them threaten to arrest an eighty year old vet because he has nail clippers or do a bra search on a 70 year old white lady in front of 300 people or freak because you have a book of matches you would not miss them.

They suck ass plain and simple. Whatever they are doing has jack shit to do with airline security. Currently, only muslim men and women under 35 are blowing up worldwide and nobody has the balls to search them. In Salt Lake, it looks like the airport is operated by about 98% illegal aliens. They don't speak english, how the hell do they pass background checks?

Best of all, in Atlanta a TSA guy tried to steal my fucking government issued guncase and weapons. In Colorado we stood by the window and watched a fat TSA whore throw my buddies guncase on the ground HARD. When we got inspected, she had ripped foam chunks out, he had a different inspector than me and he said she made several snide anti-gun comments. Our Army counterparts had their Pelican cases CHOPPED open by the TSA, they cut the cases because "it was faster than cutting the locks" and told them to file a complaint. No reason for it,they had cleared when we checked in.

Oh, if you wanna complain you gotta call or email some Washington DC website to file and it takes three weeks to get a canned response that if you dont like you can complain some more to the email automated response until you finally go the hell away.

Fuck the TSA, you gotta be a complete idiot to think they protect you from anything.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:44:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ChrisLe:

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
The TSA is struggling with new cuts in the screener workforce imposed by Congress while its new leaders hope to improve the agency's poor reputation among air travelers by introducing more customer-friendly measures.

That about says it all. Congress and the TSA will sacrifice security in exchange for happier airline travelers.

This country is really fucked.



Nope. This Country was fucked the minute three entire plane loads of people allowed worthless terrorists to take over and hijack their planes with nothing more than boxcutters.....Our Country is entirely too pussified, conditioned and pampered.....



+1
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:00:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ATNT:
I wonder if the rifle went off, would it manage to pierce the fuselage?




Hot Knife---->butter
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:10:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 5:19:32 AM EDT by nationwide]
I say let the bullshit at TSA continue!

I hope it continues to plauge business and liesure travellers for YEARS!!!

Remember, people tend to get the government the deserve!

Velcome to Amerkia, Komrade
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:15:23 AM EDT
Makes sense to me. Gotta start bringing common sense back somewhere, right?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:17:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By ATNT:
I wonder if the rifle went off, would it manage to pierce the fuselage?




Hot Knife---->butter

+1, an adult male can slam a screwdriver from the outside in if he wanted to, the aluminum outer skin is only like 3/32" thick.

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:27:05 AM EDT
Makes sense to me. Gotta start bringing common sense back somewhere, right?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:30:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:43:38 AM EDT
The funny this is, TSA now allows nail clippers again but I still see signs at airports saying they are prohibited and will be confiscated.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:51:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ChrisLe:
.....Our Country is entirely too pussified, conditioned and pampered.....



Really big honkin +1 to that.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:58:28 AM EDT
I'd guess they are feeling the economic pinch from the loss of thousands of air travelers who have just said "NO" to waiting for hours just to remove your shoes and surrender your $60 Gerber tool to a some gov't flack in the hope that somehow it will somehow make us feel like there is real "security"

Do what El Al does and screw this PC feel good BS, until then watch airline after airline go bankrupt.

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 6:03:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:

Originally Posted By ThreatResponse:
How soon we forget.



How soon we forget what exactly?

That it used to be legal, except a kneejerk reaction after 9/11 is why they were banned?

What happened on 9/11 had nothing to do with the weapons used and everything to do with how people onboard airplanes and otherwise have been conditioned to just comply with attackers.

If you believe that knives on airplanes cause terrorism then you must believe that boxcutters are the deadliest terror weapons ever created.



+ eleventybillion
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 6:03:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By leelaw:
Wait, wait.. is ARFCOM actually complaining about the TSA allowing us to legally arm ourselves better on planes?

Is this the same ARFCOM that argued about how 9/11 would probably have been different if the passengers of those flights had firearms?



Arfcom is at least 50% full of idiots. As long as the cockpit doors are reinforced and pilots are armed with pistols, it shouldn't matter if passengers have pocket knives. Besides, passengers are now armed with the knowledge that they will be killed if they allow anybody to take control of a plane, so they will fight rather than put their tails between their legs.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:06:47 AM EDT
Please, please do it. I think we've all had enough of this pathetic excuse for airline security. Let's focus on terrorists, not potential weapons.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:09:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By ThreatResponse:
How soon we forget.





Yes, lets keep free Americans completely unarmed on aircraft....



OMG NO F^&*# SH*^

Banning all knives was the dumbest thing they could have possibly done.
The only system that didn't fail that day was the American system of whooping some ass.
Once they knew what they were planning on doing, the men stepped up and put a stop to it.

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:17:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:24:45 AM EDT
Crap ... I'd love to have a good Spyderco or CRKT folder on me in a plane...

It would give me a fighting chance at very least.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:42:49 AM EDT
It would cut down on the air rage assholes that get aggro with the flight crews.

"Sir, you need to return to your seat!"
*slurring*"Fuck you! I'll kick your ass!"

STAB STAB STAB

*slurring* "Ouch! You stabbed me!"

"Sir, if you don't return to your seat, I'll let the rest of the passengers carve you like a Christmas ham"

*slurring* "Yes, Ma'am"



or even

"Allahu Ackbaaaaaaaaa!"
Passenger, "Who want's light meat?"

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:43:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:
Ever seen the drunken stuidity that goes on in an MI barracks? A TS clearance is not a reason to exempt anyone



No worse than the drunken stupidity of some members of Congress or Governors.

Residing in some MI/Intel barracks during my time, partied with a bunch of folks that had current TS clearances. I would trust my life with these folks. I can't say the same about some Congress critters or Governors. It's been my observation that it is easier to lose one's clearance than it is to get fired from Congress or as Governor.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:45:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By distributor_of_pain:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By ThreatResponse:
How soon we forget.



Yes, lets keep free Americans completely unarmed on aircraft....



OMG NO F^&*# SH*^

Banning all knives was the dumbest thing they could have possibly done.
The only system that didn't fail that day was the American system of whooping some ass.
Once they knew what they were planning on doing, the men stepped up and put a stop to it.



Liberals/sheeples are brainwashed to be in the mindset; if you do what the robbers/hijackers/criminals instructed, chances are that you will be released unharmed and everybody can go on their merry way with their life at the conclusion of the ordeal, at least that was how it was done in the prior to 9/11/01. But as in the past, and the news media whines about it all the time, the sheeple did what the criminals instructed yet they were killed/shot/stabbed anyways. The news media lamented that it was really senseless and there is no reason for such action; and of course, oh well such as life, and those are the breaks. The liberals rather that you give up your life without a fight rather than take the initiative of fighting, winning, & living. Well this so-and-so reporting live from the scene of this horrific crime, and now back to you in the newsroom.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:46:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lu380:

Originally Posted By leelaw:
Wait, wait.. is ARFCOM actually complaining about the TSA allowing us to legally arm ourselves better on planes?

Is this the same ARFCOM that argued about how 9/11 would probably have been different if the passengers of those flights had firearms?



Arfcom is at least 50% full of idiots. As long as the cockpit doors are reinforced and pilots are armed with pistols, it shouldn't matter if passengers have pocket knives. Besides, passengers are now armed with the knowledge that they will be killed if they allow anybody to take control of a plane, so they will fight rather than put their tails between their legs.



Link Posted: 8/13/2005 10:22:36 AM EDT
None of you should be trusted with knives, let alone guns, for the sake of the homeland.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 10:40:34 AM EDT
Knives, well ok. Boxcutters hell no!!!!
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 10:49:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ATNT:

Originally Posted By NAM:
100% truth: When i boarded for Iraq, We were searched as usual. Lighters and knives were not allowed. Rifles were carry on. lol....
Also, they filmed a top 10 here for David Letterman, Top 10 things to know if you're comgin to BIAP. Number 1 was:
"1. You can’t bring nail clippers on our aircraft, but an M-16 and grenade launcher is considered carry-on luggage. "


Was ammo allowed on?
Were you searched for it?
I'm hoping the answer is No and Yes.




why? you think they're going to try to shoot the plane down? sheesh. some people seem to beg to be disarmed. It must make them feeeeeel safer.

you think a tiny hole will cause the plane to explode? If so, how do military aircraft take hits and keep flying.

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 10:49:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
The TSA is struggling with new cuts in the screener workforce imposed by Congress while its new leaders hope to improve the agency's poor reputation among air travelers by introducing more customer-friendly measures.

That about says it all. Congress and the TSA will sacrifice security in exchange for happier airline travelers.

This country is really fucked.

HS1



are you joking? You think the "no swiss army knife allowed on board" bullshit really protects anyone?


wanna buy a bridge?

bahhhhhhhh!
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