User Panel
Posted: 5/18/2018 8:07:56 PM EDT
I am in a department that recently has started going from private volly to paid. We are still not city employed but the depts payroll is provided by the city which has a contract agreement with us. In short what are some of the downsides to establshing a Union
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I am in a department that recently has started going from private volly to paid. We are still not city employed but the depts payroll is provided by the city which has a contract agreement with us. In short what are some of the downsides to establshing a Union View Quote 1. Dues 2. Can potentially protect turds |
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As a volunteer department how active were you in the community? Did you have fund raisers? Help with community projects?
What are the political feelings toward unions by those you are serving? They can turn on you and make life miserable. ---- Retired Asst Chief |
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I am in a union and there are more turds than you can imagine. Where I worked before this we didn't have a union and very few turds. They are good for some things but damn I hate some of the lazy fuckers we have. I have had guys not help me on a code before.
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Quoted: I am in a union and there are more turds than you can imagine. Where I worked before this we didn't have a union and very few turds. They are good for some things but damn I hate some of the lazy fuckers we have. I have had guys not help me on a code before. View Quote Our seniority system is another pain. Those turds just hold out and will someday be captains. Thats bs... |
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we dont have retirement yet. Have to be municipal and in union to qualify . Thats the issue
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we dont have retirement yet. Have to be municipal and in union to qualify . Thats the issue View Quote |
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The biggest downside is the stress of the constant fight/tension between union and admin IMO.
Dues are a wash because your wages will almost always be better than a dept without a union anyways. Protecting turds can be addressed by getting the right people into position to work on contract language for discipline and employee testing and evaluation. Depending on how the union is structured a board will decide what level of union protection and money will be spent defending members on a case-by-case basis. State law makes a big impact. Here in Ohio we have binding arbitration. If we really can't agree over something eventually a guy from the state hears our case (and the city point of view), thinks it iver and decides. What he decides IS how it goes. Without that they would have us fighting fires with 4 guys, mowing the parks between calls and working 56 hours a week as little as 4 hours at a time, and all sorts of other BS. I would never consider a full-time job at a non-union dept personally. |
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That second one worries me. We have a few View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Downsides: 1. Dues 2. Can potentially protect turds Working in a Union department, retention of turds has a lot less to do with the Union, than with City and Fire Administration. Demographics and "social consciousness" play a large role in hiring in a lot of places. Going from a volunteer service to paid, I'm assuming you are not going to go the Civil Service route, so that should be a bit better for you. There will be large disparity of differences when it comes to opinions of a Union or your Union and people have a hard time accepting that the best outcome for the whole is bad for themselves. |
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We have to be civil service for state retirement . We are currently a hybrid private department funded by taxes. I know its weird. The department is pretty much in its infancy still. As far as having to go civil service we are ok with it And I know what comes with it
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Quoted: We have a few turds floating around here. Lazyness when it comes to doing the job. They like to sit in the recliner and not get work done. That drives me crazy. Our seniority system is another pain. Those turds just hold out and will someday be captains. Thats bs... View Quote |
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The biggest downside is the stress of the constant fight/tension between union and admin IMO. Dues are a wash because your wages will almost always be better than a dept without a union anyways. Protecting turds can be addressed by getting the right people into position to work on contract language for discipline and employee testing and evaluation. Depending on how the union is structured a board will decide what level of union protection and money will be spent defending members on a case-by-case basis. State law makes a big impact. Here in Ohio we have binding arbitration. If we really can't agree over something eventually a guy from the state hears our case (and the city point of view), thinks it iver and decides. What he decides IS how it goes. Without that they would have us fighting fires with 4 guys, mowing the parks between calls and working 56 hours a week as little as 4 hours at a time, and all sorts of other BS. I would never consider a full-time job at a non-union dept personally. View Quote I think OP is too young to even realize what the IAFF has done for firefighters and is just regurgitating the unions are evil bull shit. In my department over the last 60 years or so the union brought us a change from 72 hour to 56 and you don't pay the county back for vacation days before you get overtime pay. Mandatory SCBA for every post position. Mandatory minimum staffing, no black out or shut down stations. Moved paramedic from a bonus position to a post position that is now pensionable. Longevity bonuses. Presumptive cancer legislation. More smaller though significant safety items that you can count. They have protected guys from heavy handed bullying brass and had a few of them put on time out. Your union is obligated to protect you as long as you are in policy. I've worked with some turds. The thing is with 99% of our turds is they have been there and done that and don't care to impress. They seem to want to hide out but usually come alive when their is smoke showing. I was a Captain for 13 years and while I was not a make work guy, the turds didn't want to work for me. Your union is usually the best bet for dealing with politicians att he local, state and federal levels. All your bullshit volly fuck fuck games should go away because the chiefs cousins boyfriend will have to meet all the state standards to keep his job now, not because he is the chiefs cousins boyfriend. You will also have everyone drug tested and backgrounded. You might be surprised at who won't make the cut. |
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Hit a few good points there. For some reason we stopped back grounding months back . We no longer have any "true vol.". We go on our off time so the other crew doesnt get smashed. Only 4 guys a shift. Town is still small enough where
people care what happens so if I am not busy I will help. I have no issue with going Union. But I am also aware every situation has positives and negatives and wanted to feel you guys out . I did ask the rep a lot of questions. But again I know this is best place to ask. Sadly when I do get on state retirement the 15 years I have already worked private EMS wont count |
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My experience has been good. Our biggest turds were Chiefs who forgot where they came from. One in particular we nicknamed “Chief be-no”. If there was something he didn’t like the first thing he’d say was there’ll “be-no” more of this. He expected his word to be policy and hell to pay if anybody violated it. Lots of guys got in trouble for violating his rules because they didn’t know anything about it because it wasn’t a written policy.
We finally got a Union President who wasn’t afraid of him and piled a stack of grievances and lawsuits on his desk. It wasn’t long after that, that this Chief Retired. The entire suppression division breathed a sigh of relief when he left. I was in the National Guard and had received orders for training and turned in a request for time off. It was denied by admin with a letter stating that if I didn’t report for work at the fire Station on the days I had requested that I would face disciplinary action. Our union president contacted the city manager who sent word to administration that not only would my time be approved, but I would be granted paid time off for it, that it would not affect any of my accrued leave time. Our union was good for negotiating pay raises and insurance benefits. My only bad experience was when in my early years on the job and the president was taking care of himself instead of taking care of the members. |
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Like a few have said it depends on how the union is set up. Make sure when you start down the road I would talk to some of the other locals and get some advice/help. I have been a Union member for 18 yrs and I am in my last position that I will be able to stay in the union (Asst. Chief)
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Hit a few good points there. For some reason we stopped back grounding months back View Quote It was only when his SIL got pissed at him and dropped a dime that we found out. |
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Quoted: Our department inadvertently hired a felon many years back. Our PD ran his name (which the guy changed his name in prison) but not his prints and the Board missed that he left the "have you ever been convicted of a felony" question blank. It was only when his SIL got pissed at him and dropped a dime that we found out. View Quote |
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The biggest downside is the stress of the constant fight/tension between union and admin IMO. Dues are a wash because your wages will almost always be better than a dept without a union anyways. Protecting turds can be addressed by getting the right people into position to work on contract language for discipline and employee testing and evaluation. Depending on how the union is structured a board will decide what level of union protection and money will be spent defending members on a case-by-case basis. State law makes a big impact. Here in Ohio we have binding arbitration. If we really can't agree over something eventually a guy from the state hears our case (and the city point of view), thinks it iver and decides. What he decides IS how it goes. Without that they would have us fighting fires with 4 guys, mowing the parks between calls and working 56 hours a week as little as 4 hours at a time, and all sorts of other BS. I would never consider a full-time job at a non-union dept personally. View Quote My local had a lot of issues due to the fact those that got very high up in the Union were also chiefs on the department. (Conflict of interest? Never...) But overall, unions are a net benefit. The PD union for my city kicks ass, the president gives no fucks and calls it like it is. Our union for the FD OTOH is a lapdog for the city. I still wholeheartedly think our last union president (a deputy chief) endorsed and gave something like 38k to the now mayor in exchange for a future shot at the public safety director job. That endorsement or campaign contribution never was brought before the members for a vote, it just happened one day because he said it should. Oh, and that Mayor is a giant liberal douche who has screwed over several police officers just for doing their jobs. Rant off. |
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Quoted: Spot on. My local had a lot of issues due to the fact those that got very high up in the Union were also chiefs on the department. (Conflict of interest? Never...) But overall, unions are a net benefit. The PD union for my city kicks ass, the president gives no fucks and calls it like it is. Our union for the FD OTOH is a lapdog for the city. I still wholeheartedly think our last union president (a deputy chief) endorsed and gave something like 38k to the now mayor in exchange for a future shot at the public safety director job. That endorsement or campaign contribution never was brought before the members for a vote, it just happened one day because he said it should. Oh, and that Mayor is a giant liberal douche who has screwed over several police officers just for doing their jobs. Rant off. View Quote |
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Quoted: I hate the system but thats a pretty common way to promote. View Quote |
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View Quote Not being contentious, just kinda stuck out to me as something I hadn't really given any consideration about... |
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You can here. It just takes a lot of doing . To be an EMR/EMT/EMTP you have to get a back ground check and be approved to work by state/nremt . Most departments require one of these certs
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Downsides: 1. Dues 2. Can potentially protect turds View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I am in a department that recently has started going from private volly to paid. We are still not city employed but the depts payroll is provided by the city which has a contract agreement with us. In short what are some of the downsides to establshing a Union 1. Dues 2. Can potentially protect turds However it can protect you from shitty boards or mayors depending on your structure. We are union and while I hate how it protects turds it did protect us from a bad trustee who treated the department like a business rather than a public safety agency. |
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The biggest downside is the stress of the constant fight/tension between union and admin IMO. Dues are a wash because your wages will almost always be better than a dept without a union anyways. Protecting turds can be addressed by getting the right people into position to work on contract language for discipline and employee testing and evaluation. Depending on how the union is structured a board will decide what level of union protection and money will be spent defending members on a case-by-case basis. State law makes a big impact. Here in Ohio we have binding arbitration. If we really can't agree over something eventually a guy from the state hears our case (and the city point of view), thinks it iver and decides. What he decides IS how it goes. Without that they would have us fighting fires with 4 guys, mowing the parks between calls and working 56 hours a week as little as 4 hours at a time, and all sorts of other BS. I would never consider a full-time job at a non-union dept personally. View Quote I’d never go back to how it used to be despite my other grievances with unions. |
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No chiefs on our board. We have all ranks up to captain. Chief go into the AOC, association of chiefs when they promote. Some chiefs continue to pay the dues to stay in the unions medical plan and a few still attend meetings. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Spot on. My local had a lot of issues due to the fact those that got very high up in the Union were also chiefs on the department. (Conflict of interest? Never...) But overall, unions are a net benefit. The PD union for my city kicks ass, the president gives no fucks and calls it like it is. Our union for the FD OTOH is a lapdog for the city. I still wholeheartedly think our last union president (a deputy chief) endorsed and gave something like 38k to the now mayor in exchange for a future shot at the public safety director job. That endorsement or campaign contribution never was brought before the members for a vote, it just happened one day because he said it should. Oh, and that Mayor is a giant liberal douche who has screwed over several police officers just for doing their jobs. Rant off. |
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Sorry, out of my lane. You can't be a felon firefighter? Is that an IAFF or state thing? The Chief of my home town has been a felon for years. It's the only reason he didn't get installed as police chief in the 80's. I'm pretty sure there are several vollies with records, too. Not being contentious, just kinda stuck out to me as something I hadn't really given any consideration about... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Sorry, out of my lane. You can't be a felon firefighter? Is that an IAFF or state thing? The Chief of my home town has been a felon for years. It's the only reason he didn't get installed as police chief in the 80's. I'm pretty sure there are several vollies with records, too. Not being contentious, just kinda stuck out to me as something I hadn't really given any consideration about... |
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Downside to fire unions....
They turn grown men into giant weeping vaginas, which most fire fighters are anyway so I guess it's really not that much of a change. I say go for it. |
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Downside to fire unions.... They turn grown men into giant weeping vaginas, which most fire fighters are anyway so I guess it's really not that much of a change. I say go for it. View Quote |
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I don't know what you fear but I was a firefighter for 18 years and 8.5 years of that was for two different departments at the same time. I imagine anyone who has been in the fire service for any length of time got over their fears or they wouldn't have stayed long. I switched over to the EMS side of the department thanks to an injury that did not heal properly so there isn't much to fear anymore. There is always a chance of getting caught up in a mass shooting or some other craziness but the odds of that are pretty low.
Tip to the fatties out there, when I come as part of the SAVE team I drag the heavy ones last. |
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Pretty sure he trolled my other thread too. I have no idea why
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Thanks for clearing that up. I did ask for constructive criticism so I guess describing IAFF members as giant weeping vaginas explains the downside of fire unions to the best of your ability
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My job has a very strong and aggressive union. I wouldn't even think about working a fire job without one.
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