Posted: 2/21/2017 12:04:34 PM EDT
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Discuss
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams Morality quotes |
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“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be
better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” C.S. Lewis |
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Pretty much defines the democratic party, no? LOL yes doesn't describe the republican party at all. Conservative, to conserve based upon the rigid ideals of the status quo (textbook def). Yes definitely about broad general generosity, seeking in understand and acceptance straight from the bible. We iz fo da kids. |
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Pretty much defines the democratic party, no? In this thread you will see conservatives say something along the lines of 'they did it so we're going to do it'. There is no difference between the R and D party in that respect to include the occupants on the Trump Train. |
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"Both for practical reasons and for mathematically verifiable moral reasons, authority and responsibility must be equal - else a balancing takes place as surely as current flows between points of unequal potential. To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold a man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind idiocy. The unlimited democracies were unstable because their citizens were not responsible for the fashion in which they exerted their sovereign authority... other than through the tragic logic of history... No attempt was made to determine whether a voter was socially responsible to the extent of his literally unlimited authority. If he voted the impossible, the disastrous possible happened instead - and responsibility was then forced on him willy-nilly and destroyed both him and his foundationless temple."
- Col. Dubois, Starship Troopers |
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I cannot find the quote I wanted to use here but it is along the lines of "the less internal restraint a man has the more external restraints must be put upon him". Meaning if you are not self governed by a set of moral absolutes you will have to be governed by others.
Power wielded without morals to guide its application is the story behind most horrors of history. |
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I cannot find the quote I wanted to use here but it is along the lines of "the less internal restraint a man has the more external restraints must be put upon him". Meaning if you are not self governed by a set of moral absolutes you will have to be governed by others. Power wielded without morals to guide its application is the story behind most horrors of history. So, are we inherently moral or must it be learned? Is a child born absolutly moral? Amoral? |
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If that is true, why doesn't the Constitution specify a religion? There are many flavors of religion, with differing moral values. Quoted:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people." If that is true, why doesn't the Constitution specify a religion? There are many flavors of religion, with differing moral values. Does morality have to be taught Religiously? How about morals based solely on Belief? |
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They were all pretty Religeous back then. Just different flavors Quoted:
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"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people." If that is true, why doesn't the Constitution specify a religion? There are many flavors of religion, with differing moral values. They were all pretty Religeous back then. Just different flavors They had different flavors of Christianity, not different flavors of religion. Muslims consider themselves to be "a moral and religious people," too, but I'm sure that many folks in this forum would say Islam is incompatible with the Constitution. Does morality have to be taught Religiously?
How about morals based solely on Belief? That's somewhat redundant. All morals are based on belief, either religious or philosophical. |
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They had different flavors of Christianity, not different flavors of religion. Muslims consider themselves to be "a moral and religious people," too, but I'm sure that many folks in this forum would say Islam is incompatible with the Constitution. That's somewhat redundant. All morals are based on belief, either religious or philosophical. Quoted:
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"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people." If that is true, why doesn't the Constitution specify a religion? There are many flavors of religion, with differing moral values. They were all pretty Religeous back then. Just different flavors They had different flavors of Christianity, not different flavors of religion. Muslims consider themselves to be "a moral and religious people," too, but I'm sure that many folks in this forum would say Islam is incompatible with the Constitution. Does morality have to be taught Religiously?
How about morals based solely on Belief? That's somewhat redundant. All morals are based on belief, either religious or philosophical. Philosophical morality then So are the "moral" problems we face these days just differences in Philosophical beliefs? Can different philosophies play well together? Feelz free? |
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Logic should dictate the use of power, not morality...
Every right we possess can be logically justified as a being necessary to have an advanced civilization that remains stable forever. All prior civilizations failed because the rights we have were not universal, or recognized at all. We are the first civilization to harness nature and make it into complex things for the common man because we recognized those rights. Morality did not make a blender, or the combustion engine, or fracking... Individual rights and Logic did. Is it logical to murder someone to take what you want? No, because civilizations can not function if everyone is murdering everyone to take what they want. Does a person have the individual right to self defense? Yes, because it is impossible to protect people from other people. Does the government have the authority to control the ways and means of production? No, because only a few people control governments and their vision is too narrow to be dictate which intellectual property wins and loses, and an corrupt group could lead to the death of everyone.. |
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Which means morality is a social construct, correct? Quoted:
Which means morality is a social construct, correct? Correct. So, are we inherently moral or must it be learned?
Is a child born absolutly moral? Amoral? Children are born amoral. Clearly, "morality" is learned. If it were inherent, there would be no need to teach it. |
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Philosophical morality then So are the "moral" problems we face these days just differences in Philosophical beliefs? Can different philosophies play well together? Feelz free? Quoted:
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Does morality have to be taught Religiously? How about morals based solely on Belief? That's somewhat redundant. All morals are based on belief, either religious or philosophical. Philosophical morality then So are the "moral" problems we face these days just differences in Philosophical beliefs? Can different philosophies play well together? Feelz free? That pretty much depends upon what degree of conflict exists between different philosophies. When the differences are minor, they can get along. When differences are major, not so much. |
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Logic should dictate the use of power, not morality... Every right we possess can be logically justified as a being necessary to have an advanced civilization that remains stable forever. All prior civilizations failed because the rights we have were not universal, or recognized at all. We are the first civilization to harness nature and make it into complex things for the common man because we recognized those rights. Morality did not make a blender, or the combustion engine, or fracking... Individual rights and Logic did. Is it logical to murder someone to take what you want? No, because civilizations can not function if everyone is murdering everyone to take what they want. Does a person have the individual right to self defense? Yes, because it is impossible to protect people from other people. Does the government have the authority to control the ways and means of production? No, because only a few people control governments and their vision is too narrow to be dictate which intellectual property wins and loses, and an corrupt group could lead to the death of everyone.. Ahhhh, the exquisite bliss of pure logic If that were even possible what is the limit of Government's authority over the individual? Wouldn't logic dictate that everyone be equal? If so, do we allow the Gornment to logically determine what equal is? |
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Ahhhh, the exquisite bliss of pure logic If that were even possible what is the limit of Government's authority over the individual? Wouldn't logic dictate that everyone be equal? If so, do we allow the Gornment to logically determine what equal is? Equal as related to government means equal application of law and law designed to apply to everyone as equally as possible. The best way to do that is to outlaw actions that harm others in some measurable and major way. The rest of the stuff.....needs to be left for the people to figure out. Freedom is hard, it isnt free, and it means that people will be offended and unable to do anything about it except disassociate with the offending parties. The more law we have, the less equal we become. The more religion based law we have, the less equal the government serves the people as a whole. The less equally the law is applied, the less equal we are. So, less governent = more equality provided by government. |
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Nope, government should not dictate what equal means. Equal as related to government means equal application of law and law designed to apply to everyone as equally as possible. The best way to do that is to outlaw actions that harm others in some measurable and major way. The rest of the stuff.....needs to be left for the people to figure out. Freedom is hard, it isnt free, and it means that people will be offended and unable to do anything about it except disassociate with the offending parties. The more law we have, the less equal we become. The more religion based law we have, the less equal the government serves the people as a whole. The less equally the law is applied, the less equal we are. So, less governent = more equality provided by government. Quoted:
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Ahhhh, the exquisite bliss of pure logic If that were even possible what is the limit of Government's authority over the individual? Wouldn't logic dictate that everyone be equal? If so, do we allow the Gornment to logically determine what equal is? Equal as related to government means equal application of law and law designed to apply to everyone as equally as possible. The best way to do that is to outlaw actions that harm others in some measurable and major way. The rest of the stuff.....needs to be left for the people to figure out. Freedom is hard, it isnt free, and it means that people will be offended and unable to do anything about it except disassociate with the offending parties. The more law we have, the less equal we become. The more religion based law we have, the less equal the government serves the people as a whole. The less equally the law is applied, the less equal we are. So, less governent = more equality provided by government. Can't say I really disagree with any of that |
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Yeah, well when that Addams quote gets thrown out, thats where the thread goes. There is already some subtext of it circling. Quoted:
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You are the first poster to make that statement There is already some subtext of it circling. Of course there is Religious subtext Many peoples beliefs are Religious based |
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Logic should dictate the use of power, not morality... Quoted:
Logic should dictate the use of power, not morality... That's debatable. Every right we possess can be logically justified as a being necessary to have an advanced civilization that remains stable forever. All prior civilizations failed because the rights we have were not universal, or recognized at all. That's also questionable. Morality did not make a blender, or the combustion engine, or fracking... Individual rights and Logic did. Logic was certainly used. Also intelligence and rational thought. But I'm not seeing individual rights as necessary. Is it logical to murder someone to take what you want? It can be. Hypothetical: A group is stranded in a remote location, with no hope of quick rescue, no way to escape, no edible plants or animals. One person has the only food, and refuses to let you have any. Would you starve to death, or murder him? Historical: This continent was occupied by other people, who were killed by Europeans and their descendants in order to take the land for themselves. Does a person have the individual right to self defense? "Rights" do not exist in nature. A person has only such rights as other people agree to respect, or that he has the power to enforce. Does the government have the authority to control the ways and means of production? I'm pretty sure that most, if not all, governments do exercise some degree of control in this area. |
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Ahhhh, the exquisite bliss of pure logic Wouldn't logic dictate that everyone be equal? Quoted:
Ahhhh, the exquisite bliss of pure logic Wouldn't logic dictate that everyone be equal? No. Logic would recognize that everyone is not equal. They differ in size, strength, intelligence, etc. If so, do we allow the Gornment to logically determine what equal is? What do the Gorn have to do with this? 
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Ahhhh, the exquisite bliss of pure logic If that were even possible what is the limit of Government's authority over the individual? Wouldn't logic dictate that everyone be equal? If so, do we allow the Gornment to logically determine what equal is? Quoted:
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Logic should dictate the use of power, not morality... Every right we possess can be logically justified as a being necessary to have an advanced civilization that remains stable forever. All prior civilizations failed because the rights we have were not universal, or recognized at all. We are the first civilization to harness nature and make it into complex things for the common man because we recognized those rights. Morality did not make a blender, or the combustion engine, or fracking... Individual rights and Logic did. Is it logical to murder someone to take what you want? No, because civilizations can not function if everyone is murdering everyone to take what they want. Does a person have the individual right to self defense? Yes, because it is impossible to protect people from other people. Does the government have the authority to control the ways and means of production? No, because only a few people control governments and their vision is too narrow to be dictate which intellectual property wins and loses, and an corrupt group could lead to the death of everyone.. Ahhhh, the exquisite bliss of pure logic If that were even possible what is the limit of Government's authority over the individual? Wouldn't logic dictate that everyone be equal? If so, do we allow the Gornment to logically determine what equal is? Mao used logic. Many fans. |
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I hope we can keep it philosophical Of course there is Religious subtext Many peoples beliefs are Religious based Quoted:
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You are the first poster to make that statement There is already some subtext of it circling. Of course there is Religious subtext Many peoples beliefs are Religious based Especially communism. |
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No. Logic would recognize that everyone is not equal. They differ in size, strength, intelligence, etc. What do the Gorn have to do with this?
http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200306/tos-019-the-gorn-captain-prepa/320x240.jpg Quoted:
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Ahhhh, the exquisite bliss of pure logic Wouldn't logic dictate that everyone be equal? No. Logic would recognize that everyone is not equal. They differ in size, strength, intelligence, etc. If so, do we allow the Gornment to logically determine what equal is? What do the Gorn have to do with this?
http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200306/tos-019-the-gorn-captain-prepa/320x240.jpg 
We have to fight for our right to |
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Especially communism. Quoted:
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You are the first poster to make that statement There is already some subtext of it circling. Of course there is Religious subtext Many peoples beliefs are Religious based Especially communism.  
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