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Posted: 9/11/2004 1:30:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2004 5:14:01 PM EST by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:30:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 1:31:21 PM EST by ar50troll]
Martial Law???

An armed society keeps this kind of shit in check.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:31:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:31:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By ar50troll:
Martial Law???

An armed society keeps this kind of shit in check.



It would appear that way.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:46:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:47:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 1:48:01 PM EST by ar50troll]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Balzac72:

Originally Posted By ar50troll:
Martial Law???

An armed society keeps this kind of shit in check.



It would appear that way.




A lot of people are armed. But I don't think anyone wants to shoot a cop over a plate of tempura.


It is amazing to me that this even happened right up the street from me. I hope the ACLU sues Police Chief Michael Reiter over this blatant violation.



Hell no. I don't want to shoot a cop over ANYTHING ever.

tempura...that's funny
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:48:49 PM EST
It's an interesting anlogy to gun control - because in this case, the only people HARMED were the law-abiding ones that weren't the problem in the first place.

Did these asshats think that the people eating out at a Japanese restaurant were going to loot someone's house on the way home?

Idiots.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:50:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Balzac72:

Originally Posted By ar50troll:
Martial Law???

An armed society keeps this kind of shit in check.



It would appear that way.




A lot of people are armed. But I don't think anyone wants to shoot a cop over a plate of tempura.




Well, how good is that tempura?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:51:23 PM EST
Sounds like the owner has an actionable complaint...interference with commerce and all that...even if there is a MANDATORY evacuation, you DO NOT HAVE TO LEAVE...the police will make you sign something stating that you refused to leave, and will ask for info about your next of kin if when you get killed by the hurricane...
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:51:23 PM EST
Maybe the chief wants them to go early and study so they know how to vote in November?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:52:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:53:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:55:24 PM EST
Hmmmmm.


Dunno bout that.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:56:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:57:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:
Sounds like the owner has an actionable complaint...interference with commerce and all that...even if there is a MANDATORY evacuation, you DO NOT HAVE TO LEAVE...the police will make you sign something stating that you refused to leave, and will ask for info about your next of kin if when you get killed by the hurricane...




This was a week AFTER the hurricane.



Jeebus...that's even worse...WTF is wrong with some people???
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:58:30 PM EST
Maybe this asshat would be acting a little different if everyone complained. Cops on power trips really hate being exposed for what they are.

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:59:01 PM EST
Why go to a Japanese restraunt in W. Palm when you can go to the "Icebox"?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:00:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:03:27 PM EST
Somebody should have told him to screw himself. If he arrested you for that kind of crap, you have a winner lotto ticket in the following lawsuit.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:04:34 PM EST
I got yelled at the other night after venturing across the county border into Boca Raton (I live in Deerfield Beach) and there were about 20 Palm Beach County Sherriffs, Boca Raton Police and State Troopers in a parking lot and they were raiding a few restaurants in a strip mall. They told me that "the curfew is in effect, go home now!!" They weren't very friendly and since I didn't have power back yet when this happened and the fact that I don't live in that county, I had no idea about this curfew and frankly didn't care!! It's pretty stupid and ther's plenty of other things that these guys could be working on rather than harrassing us!!
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:05:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
By what authority can the police do this?




If you dont like what he is doing, pressure the city council to remove him, and hire a new police chief. If the council wont get rid of him, elect a new council.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:07:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
By what authority can the police do this?




If you dont like what he is doing, pressure the city council to remove him, and hire a new police chief. If the council wont get rid of him, elect a new council.




Way to answer the question.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:11:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 2:11:31 PM EST by IamtheNRA]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
By what authority can the police do this?



By the authority of the fact that most people just cave in and do what the police say, even if it is a violation of their rights...not me...I'd gladly spend a few nights in jail in exchange for the seven-figure award I'd get in the lawsuit...of course, most of the people in the restaurant probably figured it was an excuse to get away with a free dinner...
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:13:19 PM EST
I live in Martin County, our curfew was 8 pm til thurs. now its midnight. For the first few days after the storm hit it was pretty close to martial law. I live in the Palm City/ Stuart area. Pretty fucked up. Every street light was down, turning every intersection into a giant 4-way stop. Lots of accidents. Lots of people armed. I toted my Bushy M4. By mid week police from all over were directing traffic on busy roads. lol saw a trooper kick a car with his boot for not stopping when he told them to, not sure what came of that. Lots of people and businesses without power for a few more weeks.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:16:21 PM EST
After Charley we enforced a curfew in Charlotte County. We had no power for street lighting , traffic control devices etc. Keeping people in their homes/ shelters were for their safety. A perfect example of why we did this was one night we had 7 people involved in an accident with 3 fatalities. I know in Fort Myers there was a city wide curfew but it was not really enforced. But the damage was very different between the two counties. As for a week after the hurricane i'm not sure why the reasoning is for that. I can't agree or disagree with that departments actions without being there and seeing what they're dealing with .

J
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:17:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
By what authority can the police do this?

At a local Japanese restraunt police walked in and told patrons they had to leave by 8pm or face arrest. The owner of the restraunt lost approx. $1,000 when diners left without paying their bill.

Palm Beach Police Chief Michael Reiter — who was designated acting town manager — declared a state of local emergency and activated a curfew from 8 p.m. to 7 a.m. for as long as necessary.

I understand the curfew in general terms but if places of business have power and are feeding people who are WITHOUT power (and sometimes without food and supplies) then they should be allowed to go about their business.

Chasing people out of restraunts, stores and movie theaters before 8pm and sending them home DOES NOT reduce crime or protect property which is the intent of the curfew.

This story is mostly going unreported and the closest thing I've found is this...

www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/content/news/canemain0905.html

These are serious gestapo style methods of police work.

By comparisson in Dade, after Andrew one could be expected to be checked for ID (to determine if you were local and belonged there) but NOBODY was ordered out of the few places of business with power who were providing food, etc. And there were a lot of restraunts that DIDN'T have power who were feeding people to the best of their ability.

West Palm Beach makes me sick.



There is a curfew. Without having the language of the curfew in front of me, I assume that once the hours of the curfew roll around, a person cannot go out. Is the restaurant owner supposed to house all of the people trapped in his restaurant at the time the curfew kicks in?
I don't know that comparing one huricane to another is a valid comparison. What works in one area based on local conditions may not work in another.
The curfew does protect property and people, contrary to your claim otherwise. It gets people off the streets and allows the limited law enforcement. National Guard presence that may be present to deal with the people who ARE out after hours who might have the intent to commit criminal activities.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:20:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
The curfew does protect property and people, contrary to your claim otherwise. It gets people off the streets and allows the limited law enforcement. National Guard presence that may be present to deal with the people who ARE out after hours who might have the intent to commit criminal activities.



Except these people were INSIDE and bothering nobody...
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:22:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:
Except these people were INSIDE and bothering nobody...


And like I said, what are they going to do after they are done eatting? Stay in the restaurant all night? They can't be out and about on the street.Once the hour of the curfew rolls around, they need to be home or some other place where they intend to spend the evening, at least thats how most curfews work.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:24:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:
Except these people were INSIDE and bothering nobody...


And like I said, what are they going to do after they are done eatting? Stay in the restaurant all night? They can't be out and about on the street.Once the hour of the curfew rolls around, they need to be home or some other place where they intend to spend the evening, at least thats how most curfews work.



The cops could have handled it much better...but perhaps using common sense was too tall an order for those particular police officers...
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:25:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:30:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:31:34 PM EST
From here the US looks like a mess of contradiction...
For what is advertized as a "FREE" country there sure is a lot of heavy handed pushing around of the population.
Flame me as you wish, but y'all don't look that "free" to me.
'Just gimme a minute to get my asbestos suit on....
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:32:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:33:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

The cops could have handled it much better...but perhaps using common sense was too tall an order for those particular police officers...


You mean they should start making exceptions, right? So, basically, the business owner next door will have grounds to file a complaint because the officers wont let HIS business stay open past 8:00 PM, but according to YOU, the officers should use a little "common sense" and bend the rules for the restaurant patrons, right? Off the street by 8:00 means exactly that: off the street. What is so hard to understand about that? What part of "common sense" means that you bend the rules for one business but not for others?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:48:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:50:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 2:51:19 PM EST by IamtheNRA]

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

The cops could have handled it much better...but perhaps using common sense was too tall an order for those particular police officers...


You mean they should start making exceptions, right? So, basically, the business owner next door will have grounds to file a complaint because the officers wont let HIS business stay open past 8:00 PM, but according to YOU, the officers should use a little "common sense" and bend the rules for the restaurant patrons, right? Off the street by 8:00 means exactly that: off the street. What is so hard to understand about that? What part of "common sense" means that you bend the rules for one business but not for others?



The "common sense" part means leaving ALL merchants, who are lawfully conducting business, THE FUCK ALONE!!!
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:52:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:53:01 PM EST
If the business in question isn't offering room and board and is open past a curfew then is he operating legally?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:53:35 PM EST
I would have grabbed my food and paid the bill
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:54:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:57:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Your sense of freedom is disturbing.

Curfew mean police have "grounds" to arrest those suspected of being engaged in criminal activity. It doesn't mean you order regular citizens out of Burger King under threat of arrest at 8pm.



Steyr, consider the source. "Just following orders" isn't just a lame excuse, for some it's a lifestyle.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:58:50 PM EST
It would seem to me, if the local situation was serious enough to declare a curfew, it should apply to everyone.

In a bad situation, you belong home with your family or out of the area.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the cops to come in and tell everyone to get home. It's their job.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:04:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Your sense of freedom is disturbing.

Curfew mean police have "grounds" to arrest those suspected of being engaged in criminal activity. It doesn't mean you order regular citizens out of Burger King under threat of arrest at 8pm.


That depends on the wording of the curfew order; it very well could mean everyone gets off the street at a given time; does anyone have access to the wording of the curfew order?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:07:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:12:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
I'm sure it does say that. But at the same time this isn't the USSR and it isn't 1984.

The situation isn't dire enough for "martial law" so these extremes should be uncceptable to ordinary citizens.

Again, many people don't have electricity and are running out of food at home.



If it does say that, then whats the debate? Its a critical incident and the rules are in place to assist in restoring order. Get off the streets and get home, already. If power is out, no one is going to work, thats for sure. Get dinner early and get off the streets by 8.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:43:25 PM EST
Look under FSS 870.048 That is the statute for the curfew that is being enforced in Palm Beach County.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:03:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By flashooter:
Look under FSS 870.048 That is the statute for the curfew that is being enforced in Palm Beach County.



www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0870/titl0870.htm
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:06:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By flashooter:
Look under FSS 870.048 That is the statute for the curfew that is being enforced in Palm Beach County.



www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0870/titl0870.htm



870.041 Preservation of the public peace by local authority.--In the event of overt acts of violence, or the imminent threat of such violence, within a county or municipality and the Governor has not declared a state of emergency to exist, local officers shall be empowered to declare such a state of emergency exists in accordance with the provisions of ss. 870.041-870.048.

So...this begs the question...where was the violence or "imminent threat" of violence??? Sounds like the cops got just a wee bit overzealous...
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:19:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 5:27:41 PM EST by flashooter]
The actual state of emergency explanations are in 870.045....

870.045 Discretionary emergency measures.--Whenever the public official declares that a state of emergency exists, pursuant to s. 870.043, he or she may order and promulgate all or any of the following emergency measures, in whole or in part, with such limitations and conditions as he or she may deem appropriate:

(1) The establishment of curfews, including, but not limited to, the prohibition of or restrictions on pedestrian and vehicular movement, standing, and parking, except for the provision of designated essential services such as fire, police, and hospital services, including the transportation of patients thereto, utility emergency repairs, and emergency calls by physicians.

(2) The prohibition of the sale or distribution of any alcoholic beverage, with or without the payment or a consideration therefor.

(3) The prohibition of the possession on any person in a public place of any portable container containing any alcoholic beverage.

(4) The closing of places of public assemblage with designated exceptions.

(5) The prohibition of the sale or other transfer of possession, with or without consideration, of gasoline or any other flammable or combustible liquid altogether or except by delivery into a tank properly affixed to an operable motor-driven vehicle, bike, scooter, boat, or airplane and necessary for the propulsion thereof.

(6) The prohibition of the possession in a public place of any portable container containing gasoline or any other flammable or combustible liquid.

Any such emergency measure so ordered and promulgated shall be in effect during the period of said emergency in the area or areas for which the emergency has been declared.


870.048 is the charging statute.

Throught this curfew my partner and I put about 15 people in jail over a 4 day period. The ones that went were either drunk, known criminals, people in possession of drugs or people that also had warrents. We used discretion in who went to jail. A carload of homeys, cruising the streets at 2am in an area with no power, with an excuse that they were looking for beer, is not going to fly.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:34:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 5:35:32 PM EST by magnum_99]
Typical present-day robotronic copozoids who must OBEY their superiors without question and enforce a ZERO TOLERANCE policy for nearly everything.

"Police discretion" no longer exists.

Us v. Them is real.

TCSD1236 is their ideological leader.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 6:13:16 PM EST
I read the statute. It would appear to apply, as the title states, to AFFRAYS; RIOTS; ROUTS; (and) UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLIES. The statute clearly defines these terms and I can't seem to find hurricane in any of them. So these local cops interpreted this to allow them to declare a curfew? Does a heavy rainstorm qualify? Perhaps some light wind? A full moon on Tuesday? Looting is against the law, arrest people for that. This is a perfect example of why the police need at least a modicum of legal training. They should at least be able to realize the title of the statute kinda has something to do the law following. With half decent legal representation, anyone arrested under this statute in these circumstances will walk.
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