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Posted: 9/3/2004 4:50:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:52:26 PM EST
I know 2 muslims.

#1 threatened to set me on fire if I asked one more thing about the koran...... okay.

#2 explained that she converted when they started killing people in her city who didn't. She is currently an american citizen and has NO religion now.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:54:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:54:43 PM EST
There ain't no good muslims.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:56:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:56:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:57:39 PM EST
Wow.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:57:43 PM EST
when I was young, we didn't have these problems. when I was young we used to make skis out of barrel staves. now nobody even knows what the hell a barrel stave is.

I think I've made my point.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:59:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:59:43 PM EST
you can't refute the inherent wickedness of islam. the messages of hate, violence, and intolerance are abundant in the koran. i've read it three times cover to cover (once for a religion class in college, once right after 9/11, and once a couple of months ago). any peaceful muslim isn't adhering to their religion. if you haven't read the koran, please do. the brazen and matter-of-fact manner in which they denounce and condemn "infidels" will blow your mind and give you a better idea of how the muslim mind thinks.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:59:58 PM EST
You can get an english translation of the Koran from major bookstores these days. Usually they will have 2 or 3 translations, since Arabic is an imprecise language. I'm sure there's some Arabic speakers on this board too who have read the thing in its native tongue. Personally I think it's at its core a violent, intolerant religion. Except the Sufis. The followers of Muhammed himself who lived in the years after his death proved as much. Their understanding of his teacher is better than any of ours, and they waged aggressive war, taking up where Muhammed left off.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:00:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 5:03:02 PM EST by magnum_99]

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
While many have not actually read the Koran, we've all read passages from it that advocate converting or killing nonmuslims.
If there are people who can positively refute the above idea WITH the Koran, please post that.
Mods can lock people who trash Islam all night long, but we will never solve the problem unless the basic proposition - that the Koran instructs to kill/convert all nonmuslims - is refuted.



Have YOU read the Koran? Or did you read quotes from it off this site or from "Prophet of Doom" which is where most of those quotes are cut and pasted from?



Are you saying that the excepts posted aren't actually IN the koran?

What book are you reading?

I have actually taken the time to read versions of the koran published online by muslims themselves.

The versions are slightly different, but have similair substance.

EVERY version is replete with commandements to, essentially, wipe out the nonbeliever.

IT IS IN THERE. Over and over again.

Not just a phrase here or there, taken out of context, but the overriding theme of the book concerns death, destruction, killing of infidels, and submission to islam.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:00:13 PM EST
I havn't personally read the Quaran.

I would like too though, so I am a bit more informed. I do that my mothers TWO ex-husbands used to put their Quaran in the closet when they beat her because it couldn't be present. Whether that is just my mom's fault for picking dumbass wife-abusers (which it probably is), or this is a norm...not sure. But I remember reading that it is common practice.

As far as it saying whether or not to kill all non-muslims specifically, I do not know. But it does say that if you become a martyr you are guaranteed a place in heaven with 72 virgins to play with. That is pretty advocative of starting wars, why not be guaranteed heaven if all you have to do is die while fighting a holy war?

And if you kill infidels at the same time....more the better!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:01:10 PM EST
man the events in Russia has really fired everyone up
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:02:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
While many have not actually read the Koran, we've all read passages from it that advocate converting or killing nonmuslims.
If there are people who can positively refute the above idea WITH the Koran, please post that.
Mods can lock people who trash Islam all night long, but we will never solve the problem unless the basic proposition - that the Koran instructs to kill/convert all nonmuslims - is refuted.



I've read most of it. I agree with you- it does, overall, promote murder.

BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH. And I don't care how you spin it. Some who practice the religion may be oblivious to this message, may choose to ignore it, may be too fucking stupid to "get it". Bottom line, not all Muslims are evil.

Why is that so fucking hard to understand.




You are correct Steve.

Not ALL are worthy of death, but the 'religion" in its present day form surely is.

It must be reformed. The text itself must wholly denounce terrorist acts.

Otherwise, the root cause will remain and muslims can claim that the acts of the 'radicals' simply reflect what every good muslim should do in the name of Allah.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:02:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:02:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:03:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:04:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 5:06:52 PM EST by Waldo]

Don't know.

I've worked with some secular Arabs that were/are quite nice people. The true practicing radical believers are the ones I've had a bad time with.

OTOH, My wife worked with an Arab OB GYN for many many years. He brought many an infant white devil into this world even though he was the grand poobah of his local mosque. He has since closed his practice and moved back to Saudi Arabia after he got some post 9-11 visits from the FIBS.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:05:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:05:50 PM EST
I have read through a few of the meaty passages of the Qu'ran, and YES it does, for lack of a better term, promote the destruction of non-muslims. They also hate Jews a little more than Christians.

However, they will allow non-muslims to live if they pay a regular tribute (a heavy tax). Then again, any barbarian of anchient times allowed victims to survive only to generate revenue for their oppressors.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:06:15 PM EST
The only good Muslim is a . . . well nevermind, we have had enough locked threads about this today.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:06:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:06:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA:
I've read most of it. I agree with you- it does, overall, promote murder.

BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH. And I don't care how you spin it. Some who practice the religion may be oblivious to this message, may choose to ignore it, may be too fucking stupid to "get it". Bottom line, not all Muslims are evil.

Why is that so fucking hard to understand.


What is so fucking hard to understand is we have people who freely admit that the book that Islam is founded and based on promotes "murder" and "subjugation," but refuse to consider the fact that those people who profess faith and obedience in that book are anything but "murderers" and "subjugators."

How can you believe in something and *not* subscribe to it???
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:07:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:
"Say: we believe in God, and that which was revealed unto us, and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord; We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. "
(The Holy Qur'an 3:84)



Although you don't see them releasing Christian hostages, like they did when they had taken their hostages that were muslim.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:08:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:08:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 5:10:12 PM EST by GonzoAR15-1]

Originally Posted By Paul:
"Say: we believe in God, and that which was revealed unto us, and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord; We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. "
(The Holy Qur'an 3:84)




Paul, pay attention.

See that red part up there". You've got to believe in the stif from "the phophets" You'll see that over and over in the so-called tolerant versus of the Koran. Muhhamed was pretty slick, that one.

And that that says is that you've got to believe in A, B, AND "C" to be saved (from the smitting of the neck). That little bit of language is referring to Mohammed. To the koran.

See how that works? You can believe all that other stuff and we won't kill you as long as you believe the stuff "the Prophet" said too.

Get it?

Submit.

To ISLAM.

OR DIE.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:08:46 PM EST
Think of Islam this way. You read the old testament in the christian bible right? It wants you to do some pretty unspeakable acts. The New testament has resolved these issues into current christian beliefs.
Islam never received a new testament.
Some follow this code to the letter, others don't. The only way to judge is by actions and inactions.
-Steve
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:09:10 PM EST
I am very good friends with a muslim girl.

My uncle, auntie and cousin are muslim.

Some of my dad's colleagues are muslim.

All are peace loving. All are very very friendly and kind. I would not consider any of them a threat.


In the end, who am I to judge them? God is the only one who can judge people. It doesnt matter what I, or others think about them, it only matters what God thinks. In the end, he will judge us all.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:10:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By magnum_99:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
While many have not actually read the Koran, we've all read passages from it that advocate converting or killing nonmuslims.
If there are people who can positively refute the above idea WITH the Koran, please post that.
Mods can lock people who trash Islam all night long, but we will never solve the problem unless the basic proposition - that the Koran instructs to kill/convert all nonmuslims - is refuted.



Have YOU read the Koran? Or did you read quotes from it off this site or from "Prophet of Doom" which is where most of those quotes are cut and pasted from?



Are you saying that the excepts posted aren't actually IN the koran?

What book are you reading?

I have acutally taken the time to read versions of the koran published online by muslims themselves.

The differenet versions are slightly different, but have similair substance.

EVERY version is replete with commandements to, essentially, wipe out the nonbeliever.

IT IS IN THERE. Over and over again.

Not just a phrase here or there, taken out of context, but the overriding theme of the book concerns death, destruction, killing of infidels, and submission to islam.



I wasn't addressing you actually, but your "google cut and paste" of "naughty Koran phrases" that you got off another website is what made me think of it. Someone who posted here that he thought all muslims should be killed because of what it said in the koran did admit, believe it or not, that all he had read of the koran was what was posted here on arfkom.




Ok, fair enough.

We aren't, or shouldn't be enemies.

I don't think that you support the acts of terrorists at all.

We just differ in opinion on the meaning of the substance of the Koran and its implications for the actions of the terrorists and garden variety, non-violent, muslims.

I contend that the koran, in its whole, more supports the acts of the terrorists than not. And that it needs a reformation.

I like to compare the gospels where there is NOTHING that could lead anyone to belive anyting that could be construed as a license for terrorist acts.

Sure, shitty things have been done in the name of Christinanity, but they didn't find it ini the gospels.

Some Muslims sure do find quite a bit of authority in the koran for their murderous acts.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:10:53 PM EST
Koran

I sincerely suggest those with the interest go to the above link and read.

The truth is somewhere in the middle of two extremes.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:11:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:11:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:12:38 PM EST
Also, I HAVE known Islamic people who were very decent.

But........again, why is it that its mostly Islamic extremists that are doing most of t his stuff. There are non-islamic extremists....the IRA for example.....But it still seems predominantly a certain faith. Not country, politician......faith.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:13:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By magnum_99:


I don't think that you support the acts of terrorists at all.




That's mighty fucking kind of you



Did you read the rest of my post?

Sheesh, I was trying kiss and make up.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:17:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:17:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By sae057:
I havn't personally read the Quaran.

I would like too though, so I am a bit more informed. I do that my mothers TWO ex-husbands used to put their Quaran in the closet when they beat her because it couldn't be present. Whether that is just my mom's fault for picking dumbass wife-abusers (which it probably is), or this is a norm...not sure. But I remember reading that it is common practice.

As far as it saying whether or not to kill all non-muslims specifically, I do not know. But it does say that if you become a martyr you are guaranteed a place in heaven with 72 virgins to play with. That is pretty advocative of starting wars, why not be guaranteed heaven if all you have to do is die while fighting a holy war?

And if you kill infidels at the same time....more the better!



I'm sorry that you had to witness something like that. There are actually Muslim "help" books in print on how to properly beat your wife. No joke.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:19:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Have YOU read the Koran? Or did you read quotes from it off this site or from "Prophet of Doom" which is where most of those quotes are cut and pasted from?



I've read it and I have studied it a bit though admittedly from a skeptical non believers perspective. I keep seeing the same arguments in favor of the Religion of Peace that there are an just as many verses in the Koran proclaiming peace and love as there are that call for death and destruction to non believers.

As many have said many times within this forum the Koran is not organized in chronological order yet just as the New Testament supersedes the Old for Christians those verses received last from Allah by Mohammad general are seen to superseded the older verses for Muslims.

A quick look at those often quoted verses that concern us infidels will quickly show that verses spouting hatred, death and destruction towards nonbelievers were invariably among those last received by Allah. For that reason Islam scares me.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:23:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 5:27:54 PM EST by sae057]

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By sae057:
Also, I HAVE known Islamic people who were very decent.

But........again, why is it that its mostly Islamic extremists that are doing most of t his stuff. There are non-islamic extremists....the IRA for example.....But it still seems predominantly a certain faith. Not country, politician......faith.



The IRA set off a bomb outside a school a few years ago and have allegedly been involved in training both al queda and columbian terrorists.



Right, I didn't know about those, but it just reinforces my point. I had said that there WERE other extremists, the IRA for example. (Btw, if they are involved in the same type of activities the penalty should be the same). But I don't see 90% of the terrorism in the world caused by the IRA, nor protestants (which is what I think the IRA is, if not, please correct me).

{edited for spelling}
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:24:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:24:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA:

Originally Posted By magnum_99:

Not ALL are worthy of death, but the 'religion" in its present day form surely is.




It sure does.

I'm amazed at how ignorant most liberals are about this aspect of the religion. About the mass murder allegedly committed by Mohamed himself.

It's a book of hatred- anyone who doubts me, please buy a copy of it and read it.

Again, just as some practicing Christians are murderous thugs despite the peaceful teachings of the Bible, a substantial number of Muslims are not murderous thugs despite the hateful teachings of their religious manual.



Actually I would recommend NOT reading it. It is terribly written, although shorter than the Bible. Vote with your dollars and don't spend money on it, its unintelligable garbage.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:25:19 PM EST
ok: i gave "necromancer" shit every chance i got and am not tearing up over her banning..............

but WTF?!?!? over that comment?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:26:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
While many have not actually read the Koran, we've all read passages from it that advocate converting or killing nonmuslims.




I just got done responding to a bunch of quotes from the Koran that SUPPOSEDLY demonstrate that (and showing how it is not accurate), and I'm too lazy to post it again.

It's over in this thread: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=270658&page=4&#-1
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:26:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By jsmith48:

Originally Posted By sae057:
I havn't personally read the Quaran.

I would like too though, so I am a bit more informed. I do that my mothers TWO ex-husbands used to put their Quaran in the closet when they beat her because it couldn't be present. Whether that is just my mom's fault for picking dumbass wife-abusers (which it probably is), or this is a norm...not sure. But I remember reading that it is common practice.

As far as it saying whether or not to kill all non-muslims specifically, I do not know. But it does say that if you become a martyr you are guaranteed a place in heaven with 72 virgins to play with. That is pretty advocative of starting wars, why not be guaranteed heaven if all you have to do is die while fighting a holy war?

And if you kill infidels at the same time....more the better!



I'm sorry that you had to witness something like that. There are actually Muslim "help" books in print on how to properly beat your wife. No joke.



[small hijack for a sec] I was really young, maybe between 1-5 y/o during the times she was married to those two. Had I been older and aware of what was going on better (there have been children that young call the cops on their dads/ step-fathers for beating the mother), they would have been bleeding on the floor. [hijack off]
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:26:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA:
Why is that so fucking hard to understand.

Why is it so fucking hard for some folks who try to shout down criticism of Islam for being a murderous Death Cult that most criticizing it AREN'T calling for the death of all muslims??

I want them out of our military. Islam itself says it is okay to lie to an Infidel / Unbeliever - their loyalty Oaths are worthless.
I want the House of Fraud and half of their 6000 "Princes" who are virulent Wahabists / Salafists / Sharia -backing FREAKS to be cut off from their funding, to stop the funding of literally thousands of fundamentalist Wahabi madrassas sprinkled from Morocco to Singapore.
I want their funding of revisionist, Fascist, supremacist Muslim Student Associations on our major university campuses stooped, immediately.
I want their slow-speed Invasion of my Nation, or Northern Europe stopped.
I want their staff apologists and PR flacks to stop being given a free pass by dhimmi Mainstream Media.
I want their murderous jihads IN EVERY SINGLE NATION BORDERING THE DAR AL ISLAM to stop.

If they want a return to a 7th Century nomadic clan existence, let'em have it IN THEIR OWN FUCKING LANDS. I WILL NOT stand by and let them do the same in America.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:28:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:29:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By FiftyCalibre:
I am very good friends with a muslim girl.

My uncle, auntie and cousin are muslim.

Some of my dad's colleagues are muslim.

All are peace loving. All are very very friendly and kind. I would not consider any of them a threat.


In the end, who am I to judge them? God is the only one who can judge people. It doesnt matter what I, or others think about them, it only matters what God thinks. In the end, he will judge us all.



That sounds like communist talk to me. Are you sure you're not a psychopoplitician, here to hide the TRUTH from us.

Those muslims you speak of are probably planning to kill you RIGHT NOW because the koran commands them to.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:30:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:31:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:32:08 PM EST
Good and Muslim should not appear in the same sentence.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:33:41 PM EST
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