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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/4/2005 12:27:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 12:37:24 AM EDT by PeteCO]
Anyone do them? My wife HATES them, and I continue the search for the holy grail of zero-G technique in a non-acro aircraft.

I'll bring it to Vso+5 or so at a positive ROC, and then dump the nose, power off, at a pretty constant rate, until just into the yellow. Kind of like a parabola. I usually put a clipboard on the panel - when it floats in midair, I am doing it right.

Yes, it is 2:30am and I AM bored, why do you ask?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 12:54:50 AM EDT
Heeheee... I remember my first zeroG pushover in a 172.

I also remember my first hard crosswind.


Someday I shall have my pilot's license.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 1:48:24 AM EDT
I used to float my dog (95 lb lab) around the cockpit. He always thought something was wrong with the seat, and he would switch seats when he came back down,
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:26:07 AM EDT
I made my sister sick in a Tomahawk doing that. She was laughing when she said, "I think I'm gonna throw up." I didn't think she was serious since she was laughing. I scrounged around and handed her an emptly 6 oz. plastic coffee cup (the kind you get from vending machines) and hoped she didn't fill it. No sick sack to be found.

She threw up in it. Mind you, if I see or smell puke, I'm gonna puke. The only way to get it out of the plane was through a small vent in the pilot side window. I had to take it and throw it out the window and hope I didn't get any back splash. Thankfully, I didn't. The only good part of the story is that I made my sister hurl.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:44:25 AM EDT
It's the only way to pick up your pencil off the cockpit floor.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:47:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 5:10:21 AM EDT by Rodent]
One of the ways we used to reverse direction in the F-4 was a negative G pitch over. You'd go into a vertical climb, roll until your wingtip was pointed at your adversary, and then at about 200-220 knots, plant the stick full forward. I did that going a little too fast once and popped some capillaries in my eyes. I still have a brown discoloration in one iris from it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:48:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
Anyone do them? My wife HATES them, and I continue the search for the holy grail of zero-G technique in a non-acro aircraft.

I'll bring it to Vso+5 or so at a positive ROC, and then dump the nose, power off, at a pretty constant rate, until just into the yellow. Kind of like a parabola. I usually put a clipboard on the panel - when it floats in midair, I am doing it right.

Yes, it is 2:30am and I AM bored, why do you ask?



Leave the power in and ease the nose over, adding just enough push to start everything floating; reduce power on the back side with a fixed pitch prop. A hard initial push unloads the ariplane too quickly and reduces the length of the arc.

Learn to do wing overs, and not just the FAA style lazy 8's [lame, lame, lame]. This is an aerobatic maneuver.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:20:20 AM EDT
Boss did that shit to me in Germany when I worked GA. It was a PA28 series but don’t remember which model.

I went up with him on a test flight before turning the a/c over to the owner. He was calling out instrument readings and I was writing them down on a clip board when it happened.

He was laughing his ass off, said I looked white as a sheet. When we landed it was lunch. He told me to go home and drink a beer to help my stomach………
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:34:46 AM EDT
Doesn't the MiG 28 or 31 have trouble with this and "Nobody's been this close before?" But you can get a great shot of it while flying inverted......
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:35:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 11:36:40 AM EDT by PeteCO]
Oddly enough, my Dad doesn't mind pushovers but is deathly afraid of when I pull the power back to idle.

And I have a friend who loves pushovers and other kinds of tomfoolery, but is petrified of stalls.

Weird.



How does one do a "wingover"?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:41:32 AM EDT
Are you and your wife members of the Zero-G Club yet?

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:43:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By California_Kid:
Are you and your wife members of the Zero-G Club yet?




Not sure what you mean, but if it entails me getting "skyhead" while I do a zero-g, I think she might choke on my member.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:44:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By California_Kid:
Are you and your wife members of the Zero-G Club yet?




Knew a guy who tried that. He and his student are dead.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:37:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
Anyone do them? My wife HATES them, and I continue the search for the holy grail of zero-G technique in a non-acro aircraft.

I'll bring it to Vso+5 or so at a positive ROC, and then dump the nose, power off, at a pretty constant rate, until just into the yellow. Kind of like a parabola. I usually put a clipboard on the panel - when it floats in midair, I am doing it right.

Yes, it is 2:30am and I AM bored, why do you ask?



They're a blast, although I tend to enter them at Va.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:40:32 PM EDT
Were you inverted?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:42:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 5:45:36 PM EDT by CFII]
O hell yea. I do them at random, always gets the passengers attention.... Ive made them smack thier heads on the roof of the aircraft.

I get good vibes doing it


Come to think of it, Ive never scared myself, or been scared, in an aircraft during manuvers. Stalls, spins, inverted, rolls, loops, etc. Nothing.

However, when I bent a pushrod in my arrow at 400ft over San Jose on my climb, I nearly shit diamonds.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:43:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
Oddly enough, my Dad doesn't mind pushovers but is deathly afraid of when I pull the power back to idle.

And I have a friend who loves pushovers and other kinds of tomfoolery, but is petrified of stalls.

Weird.



How does one do a "wingover"?



Back stick and roll. 90 degrees AOB and 90 degrees from orginal heading IIRC. Of course, that was then. Now they are "rotor overs".
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:51:33 PM EDT

How does one do a "wingover"?


A Wingover is a finesse maneuver. Slow and steady and precise. I find them to be a pain in the butt honestly.

Start with a good ground reference on your nose and 90 degrees off.

You want to hit 45 degrees of heading change, 45 degrees nose up, 45 degrees AOB.

Then 90 degrees heading change, 90 degrees AOB, and the nose passing through the horizon.

Then 135 degrees heading change, 45 degrees AOB, and 45 degrees nose down.

Roll out 180 degrees from your start heading on entry altitude and entry airspeed.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:52:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ramjet:
It's the only way to pick up your pencil off the cockpit floor.



Nothing like climbing out and blowing through a level-off altitude and nosing over so ATC doesn't violate you...meanwhile watching all your approach plates and charts go flying to the top of the canopy and then come crashing down, thanking god they didn't get under the seat.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:53:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fly-Navy:

How does one do a "wingover"?


A Wingover is a finesse maneuver. Slow and steady and precise. I find them to be a pain in the butt honestly.

Start with a good ground reference on your nose and 90 degrees off.

You want to hit 45 degrees of heading change, 45 degrees nose up, 45 degrees AOB.

Then 90 degrees heading change, 90 degrees AOB, and the nose passing through the horizon.

Then 135 degrees heading change, 45 degrees AOB, and 45 degrees nose down.

Roll out 180 degrees from your start heading on entry altitude and entry airspeed.



Shouldn't you include your torque and IAS in that equation.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:53:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fly-Navy:

How does one do a "wingover"?


A Wingover is a finesse maneuver. Slow and steady and precise. I find them to be a pain in the butt honestly.

Start with a good ground reference on your nose and 90 degrees off.

You want to hit 45 degrees of heading change, 45 degrees nose up, 45 degrees AOB.

Then 90 degrees heading change, 90 degrees AOB, and the nose passing through the horizon.

Then 135 degrees heading change, 45 degrees AOB, and 45 degrees nose down.

Roll out 180 degrees from your start heading on entry altitude and entry airspeed.



Its like a lazy eight, with a bit more pitch and bank. I hate lazy eights
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:54:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 5:56:30 PM EDT by Fly-Navy]

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By Fly-Navy:

How does one do a "wingover"?


A Wingover is a finesse maneuver. Slow and steady and precise. I find them to be a pain in the butt honestly.

Start with a good ground reference on your nose and 90 degrees off.

You want to hit 45 degrees of heading change, 45 degrees nose up, 45 degrees AOB.

Then 90 degrees heading change, 90 degrees AOB, and the nose passing through the horizon.

Then 135 degrees heading change, 45 degrees AOB, and 45 degrees nose down.

Roll out 180 degrees from your start heading on entry altitude and entry airspeed.



Shouldn't you include your torque and IAS in that equation.



Torque? Torque? I fly fuel flow and RPM man... jet engine, not turboprop or turboshaft

We start wingovers at 300 KIAS. We're aiming for 150-170 knots at the 90 degree position.

I honestly couldn't tell you airspeeds for a light aircraft... never done one in a Cessna or Piper.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:56:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fly-Navy:

Torque? Torque? I fly fuel flow and RPM man... jet engine, not turboprop or turboshaft

We start wingovers at 300 KIAS. We're aiming for 150-170 knots at the 90 degree position.



Sorry - didn't realize where you were in the pipeline.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:56:40 PM EDT
I wish I got to fly something that burns jet fuel.

Best I can hope for is 25 squared, on both engines....

O well, in time, in time....
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:57:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By Fly-Navy:

Torque? Torque? I fly fuel flow and RPM man... jet engine, not turboprop or turboshaft

We start wingovers at 300 KIAS. We're aiming for 150-170 knots at the 90 degree position.



Sorry - didn't realize where you were in the pipeline.



No way you could have Still got 6 months to go before wings... about halfway through the TS syllabus... god it's such a long time... My buddies who went helos are already in the RAG or the Fleet.... lucky bastards.

Marine or Navy?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:05:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fly-Navy:

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By Fly-Navy:

Torque? Torque? I fly fuel flow and RPM man... jet engine, not turboprop or turboshaft

We start wingovers at 300 KIAS. We're aiming for 150-170 knots at the 90 degree position.



Sorry - didn't realize where you were in the pipeline.



No way you could have Still got 6 months to go before wings... about halfway through the TS syllabus... god it's such a long time... My buddies who went helos are already in the RAG or the Fleet.... lucky bastards.

Marine or Navy?



USN, but currently in a Joint job in a cubicle. Enjoy your flight school and first tour - they are the best. Don't sweat the extended training time - the folks that you will compete against are in your community and facing the same time delays.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:09:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H46Driver:
USN, but currently in a Joint job in a cubicle. Enjoy your flight school and first tour - they are the best. Don't sweat the extended training time - the folks that you will compete against are in your community and facing the same time delays.



Thanks, I'm glad I'm here. Starting the Phase 2 portion of the training, all the tactical stuff, which will be neat.

Got a chance to fly the Phrog and the Knighthawk on ROTC summer cruises... bad ass experiences. I'd like to get some rotor time in the civilian world someday... if I ever have that much money to blow.

Ever make your way over to www.airwarriors.com? Quite a few Fleet guys over there.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:11:40 PM EDT
I was flying with a new / old pilot, from the gouge we got on him he like to do things "his way".

Zero-G is a big NO-NO in the A-3 due to the way the aircraft makes its hydraulic/electrical power.
It uses a CSD ATM (constant speed drive air turbine motor), no engine mounted direct drive units for this beast.

It has variable pitch rotar blades that use the ATMs lubricating oil to set the pitch based on the oil pressure from the ATM oil pump.

Higher engine RPMs = more bleed air, more bleed air = higher ATM rpms = higher oil pressure, higher oil pressure = less pitch on the rotor blades to keep the hyd and ele within limits.

Going zero-g makes the oil from the ATM "crankcase" float to the top of the ATM,
This equals less or no oil to the ATM oil pump, which means less oil pressure is registered by the ATM rotors, which means that the rotors keep opening up to keep the ATMs running within limits.

When the oil pressure registers zero then the ATM rotor blades default to the full open position (to keep the AMT from burning up and causing other problems).

The problem with this is that the ATMs do not have an automatic reset or a manual reset (that can be accessed while in flight). Once the ATMs go off line due to loss of oil pressure you are screwed, no hyd or ele.

It's not so bad when you are flying straight and level and you know that this is going to happen.

It sucks major ass when you are doing 250-350 knots and have a parabolic arc of a few miles and suddenly have no electrical or hydraulic power to your aircraft.

The A-3 has a emergency RAT (ram air electrical turbine) that provides BASIC electrical power, but has no back up hydraulic pumps.

The pilot can go to manual reversion by pulling the manual revision handle, but then you only get 1/2 of the normal flight control throw, plus the pilot has to muscle fuck the dead weight of the flight controls and has no spoilers or speed brakes to help out.

The Navy lost a few A-3's like thus due to fucking around.

When this new / old guy started this shit with me in the seat and a crusty Chief EWOP in the back we told him in no uncertain terms that we would kick his ass across the flight line if he ever did that again.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:17:57 PM EDT
We did it all the time in the Piper Archers (PA28-181). They werent rated for any negative G's.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:27:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By napalm:
I also remember my first hard crosswind.



Oh man. That brings the pucker factor back!

I was on my long cross country for my CPL. I went from PHX to ABQ and the to Grants, NM to visit my Grandma. I had planned to refuel in Grants and then head home to PHX. So as I am about 5 miles out of Grants the guy on the ground is giving me a reading of a direct crosswind at 42knots.

Well, my decision to not refuel in ABQ was a bad one. I didnt have enough to make it back to ABQ and had to land ain Grants. I made a couple passes, waiting for wind to calm down. Well, I lined it up and slammed that fucker down, I thought I broke something. Hit the brakes and taxied in.

Normaly I did flapless landings at high speed when the crosswinds were high. The only problem here is that I didnt have the runway for it like I do here in PHX.

That whole flight sucked major ass. On my way home I was getting 37 in ground speed. It took forever to get back.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:29:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By a320az:

Originally Posted By napalm:
I also remember my first hard crosswind.



Oh man. That brings the pucker factor back!

I was on my long cross country for my CPL. I went from PHX to ABQ and the to Grants, NM to visit my Grandma. I had planned to refuel in Grants and then head home to PHX. So as I am about 5 miles out of Grants the guy on the ground is giving me a reading of a direct crosswind at 42knots.

Well, my decision to not refuel in ABQ was a bad one. I didnt have enough to make it back to ABQ and had to land ain Grants. I made a couple passes, waiting for wind to calm down. Well, I lined it up and slammed that fucker down, I thought I broke something. Hit the brakes and taxied in.

Normaly I did flapless landings at high speed when the crosswinds were high. The only problem here is that I didnt have the runway for it like I do here in PHX.

That whole flight sucked major ass. On my way home I was getting 37 in ground speed. It took forever to get back.



Ouch, that's a good one.

I hate overshooting tailwinds... especially at night.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:38:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:
Doesn't the MiG 28 or 31 have trouble with this and "Nobody's been this close before?" But you can get a great shot of it while flying inverted......



Yeah, but you shouldn't talk about that because it's classified Mav.
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