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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/31/2002 7:14:04 PM EDT
[url=http://www.kmol.com]KMOL-TV[/url] SAN ANTONIO — He says he was only trying to protect his family and home. But now a north side is facing possible murder charges. The unlikely weapon, a pellet gun. A 19-year old is dead Saturday night and police are calling it a freak accident. Around 3am, officers say Jonathan Guajardo came to his ex-girlfriend's house. He was throwing rocks at cars in the driveway and breaking windows. When Guajardo refused to leave, the girl's father came outside with a pellet gun, pumped once and shot at him. Guajardo ran away but he was found 2 blocks from the home, dead. "As far as legally having the gun, there's no law against having a pellet gun. I mean you can go purchase them from a number of stores in the area so as far as the legality is concerned he had every right to purchase one and have on in his home," said Richard Solis, S.A.P.D. It's a decision the shooter is regretting Saturday afternoon. He says he bought the air powered gun from Wal-Mart for about $40 dollars.
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 7:19:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 7:51:50 PM EDT
It's not about cal but shot placement,ever hear that before? And this is tragic but true. Bob
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 8:25:00 PM EDT
killed the teen with a pellet gun? damn unlucky shot. the toy is usefull for deterring people annoying pets without killing them. even then a unlucky shot will kill them.
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 8:29:07 PM EDT
One pump? i'm not buying that.
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 8:29:11 PM EDT
You can use deadly force to stop criminal mischief at night in TX. [i]Legally[/i] I think he is OK. The Grand Jury will probably not let him off though.
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 9:24:11 PM EDT
Since he only pumped it once, there was obviously (as I see it) no criminal intent, and I can't see him being charged with anything greater than involuntary manslaughter. But that's just me......
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 10:58:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Glock31: One pump? i'm not buying that.
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Apparently, you've never heard of the multitude of air rifles out there that will launch a .177 or larger pellet at close to 1000fps. Oh, and yes, most of them are "single cock" actions.
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 11:01:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Red-Leg:
Originally Posted By Glock31: One pump? i'm not buying that.
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Apparently, you've never heard of the multitude of air rifles out there that will launch a .177 or larger pellet at close to 1000fps. Oh, and yes, most of them are "single cock" actions.
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But they usually can't be had for $40 from Wal-Mart. They're more expensive than that.
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 11:09:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2002 11:09:30 PM EDT by SeaDweller]
Originally Posted By Red-Leg:
Originally Posted By Glock31: One pump? i'm not buying that.
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Apparently, you've never heard of the multitude of air rifles out there that will launch a .177 or larger pellet at close to 1000fps. Oh, and yes, most of them are "single cock" actions.
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For $40.00 you can get a 1000fps pellet gun?
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 12:23:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2002 12:25:20 AM EDT by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By Skibane: police are calling it a freak accident.
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Why? There was nothing accidental about it. He used deadly force to stop a vandilism. Whether or not he fries will be determined by Texas laws reguarding deadly force and property crimes.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 12:49:51 AM EDT
Not getting into any premeditated murder causes here,yes the Chinese made(looks just like an SKS)177.cal pellet gun,after one pump can reach these kinds of VEl. For 39.95 Killed a three pound skunk with one in my mothers back yard with it. I would have to say it was not a lucky shot,but a very unlucky shot both for the young man shot and the shooter! Hope the jury will see it this way,and what a terrible thing to have happen to anyones son! Bob
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 1:04:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Llamadong: You can use deadly force to stop criminal mischief at night in TX. [i]Legally[/i] I think he is OK. The Grand Jury will probably not let him off though.
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I agree. I'm fairly certain that it is legal to use deadly force to protect your property in Texas. - remember the dude in Dallas who offed a repo guy? The circumstances are weird enough that it will probably go to trial though.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 1:42:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BOFH:
Originally Posted By Llamadong: You can use deadly force to stop criminal mischief at night in TX. [i]Legally[/i] I think he is OK. The Grand Jury will probably not let him off though.
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I agree. I'm fairly certain that it is legal to use deadly force to protect your property in Texas. - remember the dude in Dallas who offed a repo guy? The circumstances are weird enough that it will probably go to trial though.
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I don't know about Texas,but bet the law is much the same anywhere in the USA,Saying that you can never trade life for property. You can always sue for,and sometimes just rebuy property,but never can you ever replace a life. I think that the court will just make allowances that this was just indeed a pellet gun,and no premeditated murder was ever intended. He will hopefully get off with unpremeditated second or third degree manslaughter. Of course the wrongful death suits that follow will crush the poor man. And as a human life was taken,it will be a huge anti-gun smashing mob that will make it illegal to own even a bb gun down the road. This will get a lot of press even with every thing else going on just be cause of the times! Condolences to both families! Bob
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 4:53:21 AM EDT
bobbyjack thinks: I don't know about Texas,but bet the law is much the same anywhere in the USA,Saying that you can never trade life for property.
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I don't know about where you live, but here in PA you can use deadly force to stop a crime on your property. What are generally referred to as "castle laws" would cover you here. GIven the comments I've seen about TX law in the past, I would presume it's much the same there.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 6:59:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Red-Leg:
Originally Posted By Glock31: One pump? i'm not buying that.
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Apparently, you've never heard of the multitude of air rifles out there that will launch a .177 or larger pellet at close to 1000fps. Oh, and yes, most of them are "single cock" actions.
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As most other pointed out, they're not available for $40 at WalMart. You can get the ones you pump about 10 times for 700FPS. The ones your thinking of are in the $180 - $300 range.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:00:23 AM EDT
He used deadly force to stop a vandilism.
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In the same sense that punching or slapping someone might be considered "deadly force". Yes, you could conceivably kill someone that way, but it's not an outcome that would be reasonably expected. Prediction: This will go to trial (after all, the kid has parents who have been dealt a "grave injustice", and San Antonio has no shortage of ambulance-chasers), but will result in no conviction.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:07:45 AM EDT
Never trade human life for property? What about bank guards? WHat about armoroed cars guards? What about nuclear power plant guards? They all seem to shoot with althricity when confronted by an alleged perpetrator.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:16:53 AM EDT
(POST) But they usually can't be had for $40 from Wal-Mart. They're more expensive than that.(POST) LOOK AT THIS LINK: http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d7228d40700ffff;act=ST;f=7;t=150 **** FOR SALE** NEW IN THE BOX , .177 PELLET , RIFLED BARREL FOR MORE ACCURACY, ( 900 FPS ) ONE PUMP, HAS ADJUSTIBLE SITES, THIS WILL MAKE A GOOD PRACTICE RIFLE FOR A SMALL KID OR A GOOD PLINKER FOR AN ADULT... I AM NOW A STOCKING DEALER FOR THEM PRICE IS 29.95 EACH S/H IS 9.95 **SPECIAL NOTE ( COLOR OF THE STOCK WILL VARY FROM BLOND TO WALNUT **** NO FFL TO BUY * MADE IN P-R OF CHINA * EMAIL:TANNERY_SHOP@HOTMAIL.COM OR WEB: WWW.TANNERYSHOP.COM
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:17:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hoplite: what are the laws in TX regarding trespassers at night?
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Shooting for trespass and criminal mischef at night are both legal, at least with a firearm. I'm not sure if a pellet gun will be considered differently under the law. If charges make it out of the grand jury, I'd be really shocked. However, he's going to have fun with the wrongful death suit that will surely follow. I can see the coming campaign to ban .50BMG's and .177 pellet guns now. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:19:12 AM EDT
Hey, you'll shoot your eye out!
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:20:53 AM EDT
Texas deadly force laws allow a property owner to use deadly force to protect their property against criminal mischief, theft or arson at night. This case doesn't reallt seem to fit those exceptions; Criminal Trespass is not any of those, and it sounds like the kid was leaving. To further cloud issues, though, I know from personal experience in two counties that DAs in Texas usually will not except charges of Aggravated Assault or Deadly Conduct for shooting (or shooting at) someone with a pellet or BB gun, even though those weapons are capable of causing serious bodily injury or death. To further cloud things, DAs in Texas will argue that a Peace Officer who shoots someone for pointing a weapon that is KNOWN to be a pellet or BB gun is justifiable deadly force, because the officer was in fear of serious bodily injury, or death. My guess, there will be a prosecution with no conviction.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:36:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2002 7:50:10 AM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
Originally Posted By BOFH:
Originally Posted By Llamadong: You can use deadly force to stop criminal mischief at night in TX. [i]Legally[/i] I think he is OK. The Grand Jury will probably not let him off though.
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I agree. I'm fairly certain that it is legal to use deadly force to protect your property in Texas. - remember the dude in Dallas who offed a repo guy? The circumstances are weird enough that it will probably go to trial though.
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I don't know about Texas,but bet the law is much the same anywhere in the USA,Saying that you can never trade life for property.
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You are incorrect.
Texas Penal Code TITLE 2. GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY Chapter 9 Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY § 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, [red]or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or[/red] TITLE 7. OFFENSES AGAINST PROPERTY CHAPTER 28. ARSON, CRIMINAL MISCHIEF, AND OTHER PROPERTY DAMAGE OR DESTRUCTION § 28.03. Criminal Mischief (a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner: [red](1) he intentionally or knowingly damages or destroys the tangible property of the owner; (2) he intentionally or knowingly tampers with the tangible property of the owner and causes pecuniary loss or substantial inconvenience to the owner or a third person; or[/red] (3) he intentionally or knowingly makes markings, including inscriptions, slogans, drawings, or paintings, on the tangible property of the owner.
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So, what he did was technically a Class C misdemeanor. And it also cost him his life. Whether it's legal or not, is up to a Grand Jury and a jury if it gets that far. I hope it doesn't. There's also the problem of determining if shooting someone with a pellet gun constitutes deadly force. Now, the question becomes, is it moral to shoot someone over property? That's up to each one of us or employers to decide, ultimately. My personal feelings is that it goes against Biblical principals to kill someone for the loss of property, but it's also not out of the question that this guy was going to do more than just throw rocks at cars and break windows. They asked him to leave, he didn't, and he ended up dead. I don't think the man intended for this to happen, nor did he consider the use of a pellet gun deadly force. In my mind, this horribly stupid teenager got what he deserved for not having the sense to leave on his own. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:42:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: Texas deadly force laws allow a property owner to use deadly force to protect their property against criminal mischief, theft or arson at night. This case doesn't reallt seem to fit those exceptions;
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It most certainly does fall under criminal mischief. He knowingly damaged property of the owner.
Criminal Trespass is not any of those, and it sounds like the kid was leaving.
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[B]Around 3am, officers say Jonathan Guajardo came to his ex-girlfriend's house. He was throwing rocks at cars in the driveway and breaking windows. When Guajardo refused to leave, the girl's father came outside with a pellet gun, pumped once and shot at him. Guajardo ran away but he was found 2 blocks from the home, dead.[/B] How was he leaving if he refused to leave? Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:53:39 AM EDT
What could that man have been thinking? Going outside, at night, with a single shot pellet rifle to confront a rock throwing vandal that could have been armed? I would have had a 12ga., a Glock and I would have asked him, just once, to lie down and wait for the LEOs to arrive...
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:54:29 AM EDT
No mention of the actual [i]cause[/i] of death. He could have been running from the pain of getting shot and had a heart attack for all we know. Or he may have tripped and fallen. In any case Texas law clearly is on the side of the shooter in this case. A Wrongful Death suit will have to contend with what the law of the land allows. There is truth in advertising when you say "Don't mess with Texas".
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 8:33:09 AM EDT
im gonna second the mention of the Chinese single cock pellet guys. they are cheap, and with one pump pretty powerful(not approaching 1000fps, but perhaps fast enough for the unlucky shot). i have heard of a kid getting tagged with a pellet,or maybe bb, gun and having the projectile actually plug an artery and travel through him like a blood clot. (i think this was on some dateline type show, seems pretty far out though) a year ago a local kid took a pellet from a Co2 pistol in the ass, and it nailed an artery and he had to have emergency surgery to save his life.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 8:37:21 AM EDT
Ahh...I missed the part about him throwing rocks. Tough for him. Guess he learned his lesson. The homeowner will get no-billed. As to actual cause of death? That remains to be seen. A pellet probably won't kill you, and it had to be some real freakish circumstances to actually kill a person. This may be attributable to other underlying factors: cocaine+alcohol+strenuous exercise=cocaine toxicity synrome (heart explodes).
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 8:46:39 AM EDT
Now, the question becomes, is it moral to shoot someone over property?
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Yes. period. End of Story. Cluster.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 11:46:54 AM EDT
While the home owner will face a civil suit, the real monetary target will probably be Wal-Mart. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 11:59:42 AM EDT
i can see it now BAN all air rifle's weapon of choice of criminals.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 12:08:32 PM EDT
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