The way Admiral Kimmel and Gen Short was hung out to dry was a disgrace. The way relevant Intel was withheld from him was treasonous and despicable.

The libs say Bush lied to get war in Iraq, but their saint FDR did far, far, FAR worse to get US into WWII. FFDR.

Nimitz saw this coming, so turned down a posting to Pearl before the attack.

Read "At Dawn We Slept."

There was fault everywhere, and Kimmel and Short were to blame as was Washington. Ignored war warnings, bomb plot, failure to come up with who was responsible for search planes, planning for sabotage instead of actual attack. Messages from D.C. were anything but crystal clear so there was some interpretation needed. Would Kimmel and Short have acted different with the actual decode at hand? Who knows. Big factor was everyone refused to believe Pearl Harbor to be a target for the IJN.

MacArthur was warned in plenty of time to disperse his air cover in the Philippines, but he took NO action. The Philippines were hung out to dry by MacArthur, yet he took none of the heat for its loss. Wainwright caught most of it after MacArthur got out on the PT Boats.

Forgot about that prima Donna. I believe he said he couldn't get his planes up due to the weather or some bs. Pearl was bombed and his air force was demolished on the runway hours later.

There is a book called "Day of Deceit" by Robert Stinnett.

Good article about it.

When shtf someone has to pay or be responsible. Just the way it goes.

FDR was a shit heel Progressive asshole.

A commander may be forgiven for being defeated, but never for being surprised.

The Japanese had intended a coordinated strike, but the bases on Formosa were socked in by a heavy fog which delayed their takeoff and their arrival over Luzon until the early afternoon. Receiving reports of the attack on Hawaii the American planes scrambled and remained in the air until their fuel was exhausted. Upon landing they were caught on the ground by the Japanese. There were some Army Air Corp planes still in the air but approximately 15 were shot down by Jap Zeros.

the lead up to WWII was a comedy of errors in both theaters, the  Brits, the French, the Dutch, us, we all had a massive case of denial.

I would argue he was the closest thing we have had to a Dictator.      I don't say that lightly.  

Whatever we might conclude about the disarray in America's armed forces leading up to Pearl Harbor, one thing should be remembered:

-Four months later, they bombed Tokyo.

And there it is.  People didn't "see" all the obvious warnings about Pearl Harbor because they didn't believe the Japanese would dare attack the US there.  There was a lot of disrespect for the IJN among the US military in 1941, and we paid for it.

Of course, as the graph above shows, we did get the last word in this argument....

The commander in chief was not surprised. But he didn't share the Purple intel with military leaders in the field. Kimmel took the fall for decisions made by those above him.

Roosevelt was President from 1932 until his death in 1945, 13 years.

If he had lived, he would have been in office until 1948. He was elected President FOUR times.

Since he completely ignored 150 years of precedent to run for a third term, it is quite possible that, if he had lived, he would have run again in 1948.

FDR was 63 when he died.

I find it credible that he would have run for a fifth term. He had Obama's ego, Bill Clinton's political skill and charisma, and Trump's money. Truman was a relatively weak candidate in 1948, but he won.

FDR's ego was boundless. He ignored precedent and ran four times, convinced that the country couldn't do without him. When the Supreme Court thwarted him, he considered appointing extra Justices to create his own majority.

Pearl was a massive breakdown in intel and communication kind of like another attack that happened 60 years later.

Lincoln did just as much damage to the foundation of the nation, if not more.  I hope they both rot in Hell.

FDR was gunning for being the head of the newly created UN or whatever it was to be called back then.     His death ended those plans.

I once mentioned that to University Professor and he denied it ever happened or that Roosevelt ever attempted to do it.

I met Stinnett aboard the USS Hornet (museum ship in Alameda, CA).  

Forgot the name of the admiral but he protested the order to move the battlefleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor.  He felt it was an exposed base vulnerable to attack and second, it would be a bad morale move for the men (their families were near San Diego).  That admiral resigned and Kimmel appointed to replace him.  

BTW, Admr. Thomas Hart was also disliked and given command of the US Asiatic Fleet.  It had all the gunboats in China (whoppee), the heavy cruiser Houston, two light cruisers, some destroyers (including the ancient 4 pipers), some subs (especially the old S-boats), PT boats and PBYs.  It was more of a sacrificial token force that a fighting fleet.  Winslow covers it well in his book, The Fleet the Gods Forgot.

Lest we forget, FDR also wanted to get us into war and commenced lend lease with the Allies as well as "neutrality patrols" that relieved the RN of half of its escort burden.  When our destroyer Reuben James was sunk while on neutrality patrol, it wasn't sufficient outrage for the American citizens to clamor for war.  So FDR sent the battleship Texas into war waters to get it sunk.  One U-boat skipper spotted her and radioed Berlin for permission to sink it.  Berlin told him to stand down.  So much for, "Remember the Texas!"  

Since FDR couldn't get us into war with Germany, he went for its Eastern ally, Japan.  FDR knew those ultimatums he delievered to Japan would result in war (I think Stinnett covers it) and it worked.  Pearl Harbor was enough outrage (and it was) for war.  However, many Americans lost their lives unneccessarily.  Phuc FDR.

Just finished Donald Stratton's book, Those Gallant Men.  Stratton was aboard the Arizona when she blew and despite being badly burned, managed to climb onto the USS Vestal where he was transported ashore to the hospital.  I did not know that the whores of Hotel Street not only gave blood but also volunteered to nurse the injured.  Stratton was discharged after he recovered but reenlisted and served aboard a destroyer.

There was still plenty of general intelligence and warning issues.  Nothing specific to their location but they did nothing even with "attacks somewhere are imminent".  They were complacent because they had never been attacked before and assumed they were far enough away to be safe.  An attack was imminent, they picked up extra radio chatter, and they spotted a Japanese sub right out side the harbor.  Nothing to see here people, go about your daily routine.  Good leadership would have said "maybe we should go scout around every once in awhile just to make sure no one is close.  They want to blame it on the new radar operators but they were just blowing off the threats like the leadership was.

God Bless Harry Truman for one of the greatest acts of decency and human compassion demonstrated towards an enemy.  He saved millions of Japanese lives by growing those mushrooms there.

*not a Japan apologist* The atrocity at Pearl Harbor was a pickle button response to over 2 decades of polititical shit that had its roots in the japs not getting a seat at the table after WWI dividing territory and resources amongst the allies. Japan was marginalized and fucked over by the Western European powers. Japan was butthurt, did a grab in China for resources in the 30s and was then dicksmacked with an embargo. Having no oil for themselves, and being cockblocked, they decided to make a grab for the entire south pacific. This, they believed in a nationalistic sense would make them whole.

This is just from my limited understanding of the conflict. How is that for a succinct summary?

All I know is the real stories of the trapped sailors of the USS Oklahoma and USS West Virginia after the Dec 7 attacks have given me literal nightmares.

My thanks to any who serve, and god bless those who have sacrificed.

FDR also asked the War Department in 1936 about plans for interning aliens and civilians deemed a risk due to heritage from the West Coast, it was NOT a sudden or unplanned decision.  But George Takei still tries to suck off the political party that imprisoned him.

They tried to get the resources in Manchuria first, but the Soviets beat the shit out of them in the fall of 39 (the same time Hitler was taking a roadtrip through Poland). They had no choice but to turn south into Indochina and the Philippines for those resources. That meant sooner or later war with France, the UK, and the US.

I would like to have some beers with you and 4v50.

Sorry, meant to quote kugelbliz.

They didn't believe the Japanese could attack us there. Japan modified their torpedoes and practiced the attack so that it would work. Given the technology and the excellent security of the IJN, no one anticipated the attack. It couldn't be done.

 
Needs more penis metaphors.

I found a book on the war between the Soviets and Japan. It's lengthy, but well worth understanding the course of the war.

https://www.amazon.com/Nomonhan-Japan-Against-Russia-1939/dp/0804718350?tag=vglnk-c102-20

I don't drink beer but I enjoy meeting people.  I hope to visit Arkansas next year to see some Civil War battlefields.

QFT

Is this the thread where we post about the possibility that the Arizona sank because protocols for black powder storage and magazine door closure were not followed?

'Greatest Generation' my ass...

When the millennials take over, some history books will get some vicious rewrites. 'Greatest at not holding themselves accountable, and then revering themselves' will be the new title.

FPNI

I read somewhere that Kimmel sent ships out to find the IJN fleet in November, but was ordered to bring them back to Pearl.

So much stupidity & lack of knowledge of actual history in this thread. It's almost like the thread about John Glenn going to the moon...

In a nutshell; Had FDR not saw war coming, not made the preparations that he did for war when he made them, not stayed 'neutral' the way he did & not kept Britain & the USSR alive through lend/lease, we'd have had zero chance of survival, much less a victory, when the inevitable happened.

Had nearly anyone else been POTUS at the time of the war, we would not be the world power we are today. Like it or not, agree w FDR's New Deal or not, that is just an irrefutable truth & is his legacy & his alone.

Churchill & Stalin were nearly as critical to the war effort, but they'd have been helpless w/out Lend/lease & that was all FDR's baby.

The majority of Republicans of the day were isolationists. They voted against Lend/lease & hoped to remain neutral. The war would have come to them too & they would have had none of the preparation that FDR had in place.

Just because a politition is a Republican, doesn't mean they're automatically correct...

I agree that they got hung out to dry but at the same time if there was any sort of threat of war.  Which there was and they knew it.  Why would you not be on alert with all the AA guns manned and ready?

The 'threat' was known. They didn't know where. Didn't know when & the concept of the Japanese even being able to launch such a strike against the Hawaiian Islands wasn't exactly what you'd call a general consensus in the War Dept.

Nearly everybody feels the need to blame someone else when things go south. We're STILL looking to blame somebody on 'our own side' for the attack at Pearl Harbor. The total reality of it is that Yamamoto came up with a brilliant plan that was executed nearly flawlessly. There was a LOT of good old fashioned luck involved too, but that was just a very successful plan that would never have happened if not for Yamamoto. Most of the rest of the flag officers of the IJN were actually against it.

Of course he doesn't get 'total' credit for the entire plan of attack. The same scenario had been played out by Enterprise & Lexington in the late 30's as a war game, in which the air wings also won that surprise 'battle'...

Of course he was.  The illegal methods he used to subvert the SCOTUS
so that his "DEALS" could be called constitutional says it all.

And Teddy grew into the same kind of asshole, first.

BUTT!!! everyone loves their national parks.
That's stolen land by the fed.gov from the peoples of the particular State, for those that built bird houses or are in Rio Linda.