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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/24/2005 2:36:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 8:52:20 AM EDT by Dusty_C]
Lots of you know that I have a part time gig at a gas station and work 3rd shift. Lots of others have been killed lately. Accute traumatic lead poisoning. Anyway. This makes me nervous. I'm safer at the fire dept. My right (carry) side is fairly well concealed. So my ? is this. If I'm gettin robbed, should I take the chance and shoot them and hope they can't get any rounds off, or do I hope they won't and give them the money. Frankly I'm not to excited about the prospect of doing nothing and becoming a victim.



ETA
Two days ago a man was robbed at gunpoint a block from my house (2 blocks from my work) and last night a guy decided to catch a bullet with his chest not far from here. Things are looking more and more like shit will hit the fan.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:14:52 AM EDT
What store did the person work at ?

I cant find anything on local news sites.

LB
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:15:09 AM EDT
You'll know when the time comes, practice your training.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:16:05 AM EDT
If they already have a gun pointed at you, your only option is to give them what they want. Getting robbed is better than getting shot. There's no shame in choosing to survive. Don't worry about what others will think, because most armchair warriors would wet their pants and start crying in that situation.

How long does it take you to draw and fire from concealment? I can do 1.5-2.5 seconds pretty consistently. That means if I were up against someone with similar experience, they could have fired 1-3 rounds in the time it takes me to draw and fire.

Your best bet is to stay alert and look for things that are out of the ordinary. If every robber would be nice and wear a mask, it would be much easier to identify them as they walk up to the door. Unfortunately, the type of people who rob gas stations aren't seasoned professionals. They figure it's an easy target of opportunity and don't realize that every gas station has video cameras, and the tapes get turned over to the police. Also, consider your cover and concealment options throughout your workplace. Cover is anything that will likely stop a bullet. A pallet full of 12-packs of soda would be an option I'd consider if I were in that situation. Concealment is anything that makes it harder for the person to determine where the target is. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Situational awareness is your best weapon in a robbery.

Does your employer allow you to carry on their premises? Most don't because they don't want the liability. If you're doing it anyway, expect to be fired if they find out, even if you're totally justified. If you draw on the wrong person, you could find yourself with some hefty legal bills for brandishing or assault with a deadly weapon.

Also, keep in mind that if you do shoot someone and it's fully justified, there's still a very real possibility that their family will sue you. A few years back, I saw something that estimated the average cost (legal bills, etc) of a justifiable homicide to be around $30k. That's a lot of money for doing nothing wrong.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:17:38 AM EDT
Carrying a gun is a hell of a responsibility. Nobody here can make the call for you, it's something that's got to happen in your own mind.

Before you put on that weapon every single day, you must first come to the realization that you may have to use it, and you may have to take somebody's life. If you have not yet reached that, you are not truly armed. You may have a gun, but you are not really armed.

Remember the laws of your state regarding deadly force, and if you can quote them, even better. Ultimately, it will be your decision whether to take a life over $50 in a register or let them go. Nobody can read the mind up a jacked up criminal in the heat of a moment with a gun in his hand. It's all your call.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:25:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Carrying a gun is a hell of a responsibility. Nobody here can make the call for you, it's something that's got to happen in your own mind.

Before you put on that weapon every single day, you must first come to the realization that you may have to use it, and you may have to take somebody's life. If you have not yet reached that, you are not truly armed. You may have a gun, but you are not really armed.

Remember the laws of your state regarding deadly force, and if you can quote them, even better. Ultimately, it will be your decision whether to take a life over $50 in a register or let them go. Nobody can read the mind up a jacked up criminal in the heat of a moment with a gun in his hand. It's all your call.

I carry with the blessing of my employer, and while I carry concealed, it's not real concealed. I can get to it pretty quick. And I use the same rig for USPSA. I've long ago come to the realization that putting it on puts me in a place where I may have to end someones life. I'm not excited at all by the prospect. I don't want to, but I will. I kinda worded my question wrong. If I see someone walk in my door with a gun I'm drawing down. If they have a mask on I'm drawing but not raising. If the muzzle points more than a foot in front of their feet they just made their last move, other than the thud of hitting the floor. My problem is I've seen to many people give them the money, and get shot anyway. So what would ya'll do?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:28:59 AM EDT
It's your LIFE, not the companies.. if the place is being robbed, I'd help them carry the register out if I had to, but if my life is in danger, I'm surviving.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:31:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
What store did the person work at ?

I cant find anything on local news sites.

LB



Im watching fox 13 but it's not on their website. Link market at southern and boston. Happened at 11 30 last night.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:37:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By qwijibo:
If they already have a gun pointed at you, your only option is to give them what they want. Getting robbed is better than getting shot. There's no shame in choosing to survive. Don't worry about what others will think, because most armchair warriors would wet their pants and start crying in that situation.

How long does it take you to draw and fire from concealment? I can do 1.5-2.5 seconds pretty consistently. That means if I were up against someone with similar experience, they could have fired 1-3 rounds in the time it takes me to draw and fire.

Your best bet is to stay alert and look for things that are out of the ordinary. If every robber would be nice and wear a mask, it would be much easier to identify them as they walk up to the door. Unfortunately, the type of people who rob gas stations aren't seasoned professionals. They figure it's an easy target of opportunity and don't realize that every gas station has video cameras, and the tapes get turned over to the police. Also, consider your cover and concealment options throughout your workplace. Cover is anything that will likely stop a bullet. A pallet full of 12-packs of soda would be an option I'd consider if I were in that situation. Concealment is anything that makes it harder for the person to determine where the target is. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Situational awareness is your best weapon in a robbery.

Does your employer allow you to carry on their premises? Most don't because they don't want the liability. If you're doing it anyway, expect to be fired if they find out, even if you're totally justified. If you draw on the wrong person, you could find yourself with some hefty legal bills for brandishing or assault with a deadly weapon.

Also, keep in mind that if you do shoot someone and it's fully justified, there's still a very real possibility that their family will sue you. A few years back, I saw something that estimated the average cost (legal bills, etc) of a justifiable homicide to be around $30k. That's a lot of money for doing nothing wrong.




This is some very good advise.

Bomber
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:39:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Carrying a gun is a hell of a responsibility. Nobody here can make the call for you, it's something that's got to happen in your own mind.

Before you put on that weapon every single day, you must first come to the realization that you may have to use it, and you may have to take somebody's life. If you have not yet reached that, you are not truly armed. You may have a gun, but you are not really armed.

Remember the laws of your state regarding deadly force, and if you can quote them, even better. Ultimately, it will be your decision whether to take a life over $50 in a register or let them go. Nobody can read the mind up a jacked up criminal in the heat of a moment with a gun in his hand. It's all your call.

I carry with the blessing of my employer, and while I carry concealed, it's not real concealed. I can get to it pretty quick. And I use the same rig for USPSA. I've long ago come to the realization that putting it on puts me in a place where I may have to end someones life. I'm not excited at all by the prospect. I don't want to, but I will. I kinda worded my question wrong. If I see someone walk in my door with a gun I'm drawing down. If they have a mask on I'm drawing but not raising. If the muzzle points more than a foot in front of their feet they just made their last move, other than the thud of hitting the floor. My problem is I've seen to many people give them the money, and get shot anyway. So what would ya'll do?



Given your hypothetical scenario, the very first thing to do is MOVE! Moving targets are much harder to hit than a stationary target. Given the rising number of robberies in which the vic is murdered afterwards, I would be very disinclined to allow the robbery to continue unless the gun is literally in my face, at which point I would be waiting for something to distract the persons attention, even if only long enough for me to remove myself from that line of fire. Ensure that no innocents are in the line of fire, then engage the threat until the threat is no longer a threat. Notice I did not say until they are dead, but until the threat is no longer a threat. Even if it takes every round of ammo you possess.

Just remember, you take on HUGE liability when performing this sort of activity, and you are going to lose later on, even if you win.

Soon, some of the guys will come along to tell you what badasses they are and perform their mental masturbation over your scenario, but remember, your survival is purely up to you.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:46:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Carrying a gun is a hell of a responsibility. Nobody here can make the call for you, it's something that's got to happen in your own mind.

Before you put on that weapon every single day, you must first come to the realization that you may have to use it, and you may have to take somebody's life. If you have not yet reached that, you are not truly armed. You may have a gun, but you are not really armed.

Remember the laws of your state regarding deadly force, and if you can quote them, even better. Ultimately, it will be your decision whether to take a life over $50 in a register or let them go. Nobody can read the mind up a jacked up criminal in the heat of a moment with a gun in his hand. It's all your call.

I carry with the blessing of my employer, and while I carry concealed, it's not real concealed. I can get to it pretty quick. And I use the same rig for USPSA. I've long ago come to the realization that putting it on puts me in a place where I may have to end someones life. I'm not excited at all by the prospect. I don't want to, but I will. I kinda worded my question wrong. If I see someone walk in my door with a gun I'm drawing down. If they have a mask on I'm drawing but not raising. If the muzzle points more than a foot in front of their feet they just made their last move, other than the thud of hitting the floor. My problem is I've seen to many people give them the money, and get shot anyway. So what would ya'll do?



Given your hypothetical scenario, the very first thing to do is MOVE! Moving targets are much harder to hit than a stationary target. Given the rising number of robberies in which the vic is murdered afterwards, I would be very disinclined to allow the robbery to continue unless the gun is literally in my face, at which point I would be waiting for something to distract the persons attention, even if only long enough for me to remove myself from that line of fire. Ensure that no innocents are in the line of fire, then engage the threat until the threat is no longer a threat. Notice I did not say until they are dead, but until the threat is no longer a threat. Even if it takes every round of ammo you possess.

Just remember, you take on HUGE liability when performing this sort of activity, and you are going to lose later on, even if you win.

Soon, some of the guys will come along to tell you what badasses they are and perform their mental masturbation over your scenario, but remember, your survival is purely up to you.

Thats one reason I asked in the middle of the night. Seem to be more kids on during the day that know EVERYTHING. I don't want advice from someone that thinks they know everything I want it from people that know they DON'T know it all. All this has me so riled up that I'm wanting to find some swat guys to train with. I'm very good at drawing, aiming, firing, and hitting the target. I don't know fuck all about weapons retention or any of the million other things I should have at least some basic skills in.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:53:56 AM EDT
Not to be "Flip" at all here guy (I've taken a few "Less-than-desireable" second jobs myself over the years) but, get a new job or make peace with the fact that you've got "Target/Fast cash" written all over you in the position you're currently holding.

There are real monsters out there who WILL kill you (And risk everything the justice system can throw at them) for the $28.50 they might just possibly gain by ending your existance.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:01:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:11:02 AM EDT
It's not about the money in the register. It's not knowing the stability of the crack head who is willing to risk prison for $50. Unless they got the drop on me, I would start shooting as soon as I saw their weapon. If they did getb the drop on me, and during the course of the robbery I saw an oportunity to shoot first, I would take it. No matter what, do not let them tie you up, or force you in the back of the store on your knees. Just because you comply with their demands doesn't mean that they won't kill you before they leave.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:42:31 AM EDT
Where in Memphis did this happen? The sad thing is I am not surprised in the least. It just angers me to hear the antis say things like "just give them what they want blah blah". If you are being robbed assume you are going to get shot. I worked in Memphis for a little over six years at a funeral home and that kind of crap happened a lot. That's when I first started carrying a gun. A guy that worked part-time for our funeral home's removal service got killed in a similar way. He was from Arkansas, BTW.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:45:56 AM EDT
I feel that I'm in even more danger at my other job, (Fire dept) There I can't carry so I am just about helpless and that makes it a non issue.

See above post for address in memphis where it happened.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:24:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:46:25 AM EDT
Compliance does not guarantee safety.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:59:15 AM EDT

. My problem is I've seen to many people give them the money, and get shot anyway. So what would ya'll do?



It's a coin toss -- Better to consider the nature of the problem. If there is a weapon on you, you are in trouble, and you are better off controlling the situation, than letting it play out.

I would dive for cover first -- At least then I'd be improving the odds, and cover is a good thing. The odds of an untrained person hitting a moving target are slim. If the robber is focused, use a 'fake', like rolling your eyes and pretending to faint . I have read where this has worked out well.

Get ahold of Ayoob's books. Reading good analysis will prepare you much better than reading the local fish wrapper.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:09:03 AM EDT
As far as firepower goes, I've never heard of a robber carrying 2 spare mags into a robbery, but I've got them there, and on me. The store is laid out extremely well for defense. Including an office in a good posistion to fall back into with a BR door and a huge 2 way mirror backed by BR laminate. What I'm personally looking for now is some type of class for up close and personal gunfights. If I had a gun in my face maybe it would be better to deflect it with my left hand while drawing and firing with my right. I don't know. I do know I need more training. I shoot USPSA and hit what I aim at. But I've yet to aim at a person. And cardboard doesnt shoot back. So as far as I'm concerned, none of that matters. Except hoping that I have enough muscle memory built in that once I make the conscience decision to fire, that my body will react on it's own.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:41:35 AM EDT
When I used to work at a gunstore we has a glock 19 under the front counter held inplace by a cheap slip holster screwed to the underside of the counter. The idea was to drop to the floor, grab the pistol, and defend your life. Most igmo crooks just come in shooting now a days..... Be careful. And think about buying a deeply concealed back up gun.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 7:50:28 AM EDT
If your place already has a good layout that is a big plus. I would stash a buckshot gun in the office to fall back to. I spent many years working at a liquor store in Midtown Memphis while I was in college that was not behind glass. That is where I got my first real handgun training from a bunch of Jeff Cooper disciples.
I will say this. If a guy enters your store with a gun in his hand shoot him as fast as you can. If a guy comes in with a mask on shoot him as fast as you can. If a guy comes in and makes you nervous by wandering around waiting for all the other customers to leave, draw and hold your gun under the counter.
Remember you HAVE TO SHOOT FIRST! This once well recognized fact seems to be lost on some folks now. If you don't shoot first you may not be shooting at all.
One guy I worked with gave the hold up man the money and the guy still shot at him several times but missed since my buddy was running about 500 miles an hour out the front door. This experience changed and later saved my buddy's life. If a guy has a gun pointed at you the chance to draw is not there. If he glances away for a second that is enough time.
The main thing is to profile the hold up man before he does anything and be active not reactive. I will not go into all the stories but myself and my co workers routinely profiled hold up men and stared them down and even directly challenged them at times. On one occassion they left our store and went directly across the street to the C store and robbed them instead. These guys were very nervous and sometimes sweating pretty bad.
We had a code word and if one of us said it everybody else got out from behind the counter and took pre planned positions of cover that put anyone trying to rob us in a death trap.
Try shooting at old shirts hung on whatever to get used to not seeing your holes and shooting at shirts. Like Bill Jordan said "It is easy to predict what a person will do in their first gunfight. They will do exactly as they have been trained to do." My buddy used to say "You don't have to hope their souls go to hell but their bodies have to be stopped". He's right.
If you are training right and possess the right mindset you can prevail in a lot of circumstances. A vest is a good feeling if you can afford one. Once you have worked at a place a while you know all your regulars so there won't be so many people you have to assess. One time somebody asked one of my co workers about seeing people's faces you shoot. He told them "I don't see their face I only see their shirt". That's right. When you shoot hold up men you are not killing men. You are destroying gun platforms. Simple as that.
A good trick is if you get caught short and there is only one guy when you hand him the money take out the whole cash drawer and slide it across the counter toward his gun hand. This puts him in a bind and he may redirect his gun or even put it away in order to start pulling the money out of the drawer. That is a golden moment.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 7:57:44 AM EDT
Again, something else I didn't think about. I'm gonna go to all the major tac schools, learn everything I can, work with some cops that used to work in gas stations and develop tactics and a course for small store retail.
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