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Posted: 6/15/2009 5:02:58 PM EST
Check this article out. A doc out in California was working for cash and skirting the insurance industry. So the insurance industry used it lobbying ability and power with the state to stop her.

Why free market health care is a non starter.

I am slowly moving away from any hope for a free market health care system, the more I learn about health care the more corruption, incompetence, and collusion I see.

The status quo benefits everyone but the end consumer.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:06:06 PM EST
Lemme give you all a hint:

The middlemen, who are ALL pals of the government, are getting the money; that's why healthcare is so fucking expensive.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:08:53 PM EST
I want to see the commentary from the free market guys on a realistic way of stopping the insurance industry from doing this sort of thing.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:11:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
I want to see the commentary from the free market guys on a realistic way of stopping the insurance industry from doing this sort of thing.

At this point? Seriously?


Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:15:40 PM EST
More than likely, it wasn't the insurance companies that initiated the challenges... it was other doctors & clinics in the community.

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:20:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mojo_Jojo:
More than likely, it wasn't the insurance companies that initiated the challenges... it was other doctors & clinics in the community.



OK, so how do we force competition in the medical sector when the doc's and clinics are actively fighting it?



Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:21:23 PM EST
If they claim this doctor is acting as an insurance company, why haven't they gone after Gyms? Or Lawyers on retainer? Or any of the other hundreds of businesses that operate the same way?
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:24:10 PM EST
The reason there will be no push to a real free market health care reform is this:

People are more comfortable with nameless, faceless bureaucracies rationing care, than having their own inabilities do it.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:25:21 PM EST
Actually, the complaint was by the insurance industry which was seeing the doctors as being unlicensed insurance agents. They were offering coverage to their patients on a flat-rate basis.

Insurance is far too regulated and that is from the politics.


Lawyers have retainers...this is the same thing as these doctors. Now lawyers have used a "retainer plus hours" which is total BS.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:26:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By Silence:
The reason there will be no push to a real free market health care reform is this:

People are more comfortable with nameless, faceless bureaucracies rationing care, than having their own inabilities do it.


Thats bullshit. The medical industry likes the status quo, it is a cash cow. Free market reforms would be a profit loss, and a socialized system would be a profit loss. We currently have the worst of both worlds.

Read the article, some docs are trying free market reforms, but the other docs/insurance companies are fighting them.

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:29:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Actually, the complaint was by the insurance industry which was seeing the doctors as being unlicensed insurance agents. They were offering coverage to their patients on a flat-rate basis.

I read this too... I just question if the insurance companies would go to the effort to shut down the concierge docs unless they were prompted to by other docs or clinics.


Insurance is far too regulated and that is from the politics.

Lawyers have retainers...this is the same thing as these doctors. Now lawyers have used a "retainer plus hours" which is total BS.


Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:31:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Originally Posted By Silence:
The reason there will be no push to a real free market health care reform is this:

People are more comfortable with nameless, faceless bureaucracies rationing care, than having their own inabilities do it.


Thats bullshit. The medical industry likes the status quo, it is a cash cow. Free market reforms would be a profit loss, and a socialized system would be a profit loss. We currently have the worst of both worlds.

Read the article, some docs are trying free market reforms, but the other docs/insurance companies are fighting them.



You hit the nail on the head.
Any "health care reform" will put more money in the pockets of those involved in the health care industry. From MDs to insurance companies.
Obama is a highly paid con artist selling bull shit to the public.

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:36:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
I want to see the commentary from the free market guys on a realistic way of stopping the insurance industry from doing this sort of thing.


Make it illegal for employers to provide health insurance and all costs related to all medical expenses - including private health insurance - tax deductible.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:36:54 PM EST
Any "health care reform" will put more money in the pockets of those involved in the health care industry. From MDs to insurance companies.

I doubt it. Current .gov-managed health care plans (Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) are notorious for piss-poor payment. No reason a new plan would be any different.

Obama is a highly paid con artist selling bull shit to the public.

When you're right, you're right.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:52:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Originally Posted By Mojo_Jojo:
More than likely, it wasn't the insurance companies that initiated the challenges... it was other doctors & clinics in the community.



OK, so how do we force competition in the medical sector when the doc's and clinics are actively fighting it?


It's a lie. It isn't other practicing physicians trying to stop it. It's insurance companies who stand to lose one of their biggest cash cows.

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:57:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By David14:
Any "health care reform" will put more money in the pockets of those involved in the health care industry. From MDs to insurance companies.

I doubt it. Current .gov-managed health care plans (Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) are notorious for piss-poor payment. No reason a new plan would be any different.
Obama received more money from the health care insurance companies than any other presidential candidate in history. The low life was bought and paid for before he was elected.
As far as gov't paying, there are two scales for charging. Lower for the average person, higher for those on Medicare.


Obama is a highly paid con artist selling bull shit to the public.

When you're right, you're right.


Obama is in the process of bending the American tax payer over and raping us. It's going to be really vicious before the year is out.

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:57:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By danc46:
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Originally Posted By Silence:
The reason there will be no push to a real free market health care reform is this:

People are more comfortable with nameless, faceless bureaucracies rationing care, than having their own inabilities do it.


Thats bullshit. The medical industry likes the status quo, it is a cash cow. Free market reforms would be a profit loss, and a socialized system would be a profit loss. We currently have the worst of both worlds.

Read the article, some docs are trying free market reforms, but the other docs/insurance companies are fighting them.



You hit the nail on the head.
Any "health care reform" will put more money in the pockets of those involved in the health care industry. From MDs to insurance companies.
Obama is a highly paid con artist selling bull shit to the public.



In the very beginning, maybe. That is how they'll get us doctors not to fight it as hard. Once the system is in place, then they will cut back the money + take a lot back with increased taxes like Obama is planning.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:00:15 PM EST
Doctor's fees are not the problem. It is the expectation that EVERYONE should get the best of care.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:02:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Originally Posted By Mojo_Jojo:
More than likely, it wasn't the insurance companies that initiated the challenges... it was other doctors & clinics in the community.



OK, so how do we force competition in the medical sector when the doc's and clinics are actively fighting it?


It's a lie. It isn't other practicing physicians trying to stop it. It's insurance companies who stand to lose one of their biggest cash cows.



OK, well how do we get some competition when the insurance companies are fighting it?

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:06:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Doctor's fees are not the problem. It is the expectation that EVERYONE should get the best of care.


How do we get the AMA/AOA to stop keeping the number of medical graduates down?

How do we get the AMA to stop limiting the practice rights of non-MD providers?

How do we get the pharm industry to allow the importation of drugs from countries with lax manufacturing standards?

How do we set malpractice limits when the ABA fights it tooth and nail?

How do we get fair and open pricing when the AMA/AOA doesn't want price competition for providers?

I am all for a slightly lower standard of care for those who can't afford higher end care but the people with better lobbyists will not let it happen.

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:23:32 PM EST
You can have the best, the cheapest or the quickest... pick two.

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:27:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
I want to see the commentary from the free market guys on a realistic way of stopping the insurance industry from doing this sort of thing.


It is very simple.

Having a responsible elecorate that will elect the right people.

That is the way a republic is supposed to work.


We don't have that in total, so the current system will continue. But because we do have an electorate that WILL get off their ass in some cases we also won't have Cuba style heath care either.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:29:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By danc46:
Originally Posted By David14:
Any "health care reform" will put more money in the pockets of those involved in the health care industry. From MDs to insurance companies.

I doubt it. Current .gov-managed health care plans (Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) are notorious for piss-poor payment. No reason a new plan would be any different.
Obama received more money from the health care insurance companies than any other presidential candidate in history. The low life was bought and paid for before he was elected.
As far as gov't paying, there are two scales for charging. Lower for the average person, higher for those on Medicare.


Obama is a highly paid con artist selling bull shit to the public.

When you're right, you're right.


Obama is in the process of bending the American tax payer over and raping us. It's going to be really vicious before the year is out.



Yes he is. And the rich more than anybody. How do you feel about that?

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:31:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By sherrick13:
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
I want to see the commentary from the free market guys on a realistic way of stopping the insurance industry from doing this sort of thing.


It is very simple.

Having a responsible elecorate that will elect the right people.

That is the way a republic is supposed to work.


We don't have that in total, so the current system will continue. But because we do have an electorate that WILL get off their ass in some cases we also won't have Cuba style heath care either.


Not immediately, anyways.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:51:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 5:52:43 AM EST by ffsparky26]
Originally Posted By Mojo_Jojo:
You can have the best, the cheapest or the quickest... pick two.



at this point, depending upon the metric, we are meeting none of these.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:54:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
I want to see the commentary from the free market guys on a realistic way of stopping the insurance industry from doing this sort of thing.


make medical insurance illegal. private or "public" (aka socialized medicine). just make it illegal. NOBODY can have medical insurance. prices on everything from perscription drugs to treatments, to plain old checkups, would plummet overnight.


Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:40:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
How do we get the AMA/AOA to stop keeping the number of medical graduates down? use stimulous funds to build 17 (or pick a big number) new schools that teach mid-range medicine, and allow these people to practice only family medicine. For this layer in medicine, no malpractice suits can be brought, and no medical insurance needs to be retained. These two provide a 2X cost advantage over doctor-layer medicine. Over a decade (or two), the problem will go away

How do we get the AMA to stop limiting the practice rights of non-MD providers? estabilish a AFA (American Family practitioners of medicine Association) that governs graduates of the above schools. When the AMA shows up to vent displeasure––give them a shovel and tell them to pound sand.

How do we get the pharm industry to allow the importation of drugs from countries with lax manufacturing standards? you don't, you get Congress to pass a law that allows the imports of these products. Alternately or simultaneously, pass a law that says no product of big pharma will cost more than $10 per pill after 4 years in the market (and do not index this to inflation). Alternately, write a law that stipulates no medicine (pill,...) in the USoA can be more expensive that the same product in any other country in the world.

How do we set malpractice limits when the ABA fights it tooth and nail? Why do you want to set some kind of arbitrary limit? Malpractice on a billionaire should be more expensie than malpractice on a bumb––but perhaps you could limit malpractice to 10 years "effective change in net worth". Besides, this reed herring is less than 2% of big medical expensie

How do we get fair and open pricing when the AMA/AOA doesn't want price competition for providers? open up a layer between doctors and nurses. Allow this layer to provide family medicine. Provide standards that allow

I am all for a slightly lower standard of care for those who can't afford higher end care but the people with better lobbyists will not let it happen. neither will mom and pop. But, this too is a red herring. Giving medical personell the ability to say "you are going to die, we can give you comfort measures but you are still going to die" can save almost 40% of all medical costs now eating up the system.


Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:02:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Check this article out. A doc out in California was working for cash and skirting the insurance industry. So the insurance industry used it lobbying ability and power with the state to stop her.

Why free market health care is a non starter.

I am slowly moving away from any hope for a free market health care system, the more I learn about health care the more corruption, incompetence, and collusion I see.

The status quo benefits everyone but the end consumer.


Insurance companies are doing to the healthcare industry what unions did to the automotive industry. Driving prices up to the breaking point so the .gov can step in to "fix" it by taking over. Except the unions made out on the whole "bailout". I doubt so much for the insurance companies....

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:35:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Doctor's fees are not the problem. It is the expectation that EVERYONE should get the best of care.


How do we get the AMA/AOA to stop keeping the number of medical graduates down?
They're not keeping the number of graduates down. They (there's more than one organization) are just not lowering the admission standards. It doesn't matter if 20 people apply for the same spot. If 19 of them do not meet criteria then none of them should get in.

How do we get the AMA to stop limiting the practice rights of non-MD providers?
Why do you think that people with less education/experience can provide the same level of care as a doctor?

How do we get the pharm industry to allow the importation of drugs from countries with lax manufacturing standards?
Why not have them just increase their manufacturing standards? I don't see any problem with having the market flooded
by cheap generics as long as they contain what's on their label. I completely agree that this would help given the high cost
of medications.


How do we set malpractice limits when the ABA fights it tooth and nail?
I think that is a bad idea. Suing your doctor is one of many ways to keep us on our toes. We're trying to increase the consumer's rights not take more of them away. I'd be all for a 3 person panel (judge, doctor, layperson) to decide the merit of a case prior to going to court.

How do we get fair and open pricing when the AMA/AOA doesn't want price competition for providers?
This will be difficult to do not because of the AMA, but because of the insurance companies.

I am all for a slightly lower standard of care for those who can't afford higher end care but the people with better lobbyists will not let it happen.
I've thought about this a lot and have some good ideas. But I have to go to bed.



Oh, also remember that the vast majority of practicing doctors are NOT members of the AMA (<19%). I have never been and don't know anyone who is a member. I consider them a subversive communist organization who do not have the doctor's best interest at heart. If they did, then their membership would be higher.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:52:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 7:02:02 PM EST by Giltweasel]
There's a local dentist here that works out of a house and takes cash only. My wife went to him once a few years back for an emergency situation and we didn't have a dental plan that would cover it. He was well recommended.

I don't see why the same couldn't be done with an urgicare setup.

On the other hand, I had to get a chest x-ray a few years ago and went to the local Medical arts clinic. I didn't have insurance at the time and told them I was paying cash. It was amazing the amount of confusion and frustration that caused in the office. The receptionist/billing secretaries didn't know what to do for about 20 minutes. They even tried to get me to call my dad for a credit card number. They absolutely didn't know how to charge cash for the whole visit.

The doctor stepped in and set a fixed price and took my cash and plugged it in to the computer somehow.

I would be surprised if I could even get that much these days.

Gilt/Joe

ETA: There are those out there willing to compete, and they can do so without being obstructed by the "system". I wouldn't be surprised to see more independent clinics that operate on a cash basis springing up in the next few years as medicare funding starts to get more restricted.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:03:05 PM EST
Healthcare is fucked.

Insurance industry and providers are not competing but setting prices and the people who work for a living get their brains screwed out.

At this point anything would probably be better.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:56:26 PM EST
I didn't have insurance at the time and told them I was paying cash. It was amazing the amount of confusion and frustration that caused in the office.

Many offices give a discount if you pay in full for your visit at the time of the appointment –– something like 15-20% off.

Originally Posted By GotGuns:
Insurance companies are doing to the healthcare industry what unions did to the automotive industry. Driving prices up to the breaking point so the .gov can step in to "fix" it by taking over. Except the unions made out on the whole "bailout". I doubt so much for the insurance companies....

Somebody here gets it.

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