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Posted: 8/16/2017 11:20:53 AM EDT
[#1]
so did it work like a good shaming would in Western culture by motivating them to excel, or did these Mesopotamian tribesmen merely sulk and nurse their grievance?
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Posted: 8/16/2017 11:28:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so did it work like a good shaming would in Western culture by motivating them to excel, or did these Mesopotamian tribesmen merely sulk and nurse their grievance? 
Edit: As an aside, how the IA and IP were dressed was a pretty reliable visual indicator of whether or not we were going to have contact on a particular mission. They always knew. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 11:29:21 AM EDT
[#3]
that speech inspired them to go fuck their goats later
great work |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 11:30:01 AM EDT
[#4]
Nah, they probably went back, smoked some hash, drank some chai, gave intel to the terrorists, falsified the payroll, and fucked their chai boys/goats.
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Posted: 8/16/2017 11:32:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Edit: As an aside, how the IA and IP were dressed was a pretty reliable visual indicator of whether or not we were going to have contact on a particular mission. They always knew. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 11:35:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
can you explain for those of us who weren't in Iraq? |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 11:38:52 AM EDT
[#7]
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
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Posted: 8/16/2017 2:38:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
can you explain for those of us who weren't in Iraq? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Edit: As an aside, how the IA and IP were dressed was a pretty reliable visual indicator of whether or not we were going to have contact on a particular mission. They always knew. I'm not saying, as a fact, that they were involved but it appeared to me that they at least knew what was in the area and never shared this intel with us. All I can say is that the above was 100% accurate every-time we left the gate. I never trusted a single one of them and I hated being around them on dismounts. 
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Posted: 8/16/2017 2:53:07 PM EDT
[#9]
2010, probably more than half of those police are dead from bombings now. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:19:14 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2010, probably more than half of those police are dead from bombings now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
2010, probably more than half of those police are dead from bombings now. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:27:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:31:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:34:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs. Tell me. What do you do in the air force. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:42:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Perfect example of how not to treat people. Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:45:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Perfect example of how not to treat people. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:48:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN? NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs. Tell me. What do you do in the air force. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs. Tell me. What do you do in the air force. 
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:49:45 PM EDT
[#17]
never get tired of this video.
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:51:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I remember the exact day when the Abrams and the Bradleys came inside the FOB from their last patrols... because they were too aggressive and scary Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs. Tell me. What do you do in the air force. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 6:53:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads? Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yep. Perfect example of how not to treat people. Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless. Reporter quoted a US soldier as saying, "JFC, they even stole the fucking grass and the DIRT! THE DIRT! What the FUCK kind of people do that?" 
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Posted: 8/16/2017 10:01:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I read a story about how US troops in the early days of either Iraq or Afghanistan built a soccer field, complete with goals, bleachers, and sod. Once it was completed, locals snuck in at 0dark30 and stole everything -- the goalposts, the bleachers, even the sod. Reporter quoted a US soldier as saying, "JFC, they even stole the fucking grass and the DIRT! THE DIRT! What the FUCK kind of people do that?" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yep. Perfect example of how not to treat people. Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless. Reporter quoted a US soldier as saying, "JFC, they even stole the fucking grass and the DIRT! THE DIRT! What the FUCK kind of people do that?" Maybe a grassy lawn was a novelty to the savages? |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 10:05:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only place I saw grassy lawns was North of checkpoint 5, where the Kurds were. Nice tidy homes and very little litter. It was obvious that they actually gave a shit about their country. Maybe a grassy lawn was a novelty to the savages? |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 1:36:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We lost the war there? Huh. News to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
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Posted: 8/17/2017 1:39:40 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN? NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs. Tell me. What do you do in the air force. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs. Tell me. What do you do in the air force. Fortunately I received much better training than he did, and was actually successful at my mission. So much, in fact, that they shut down our unit a year after I left, because the Iraqis were able to operate with no need of further assistance. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 1:43:37 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 1:52:30 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Perfect example of how not to treat people. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:02:46 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN? NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs. Tell me. What do you do in the air force. Fyi, I wasn't in air force, was infantry squad leader with 24 months in Iraq. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:03:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah if only we were nicer we would win wars. Im sure we just really close to winning their muslim hearts and minds though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:15:38 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not about being "nice". It's about understanding how high context cultures work, and not alienating your allies. Chest thumping bullshit like that might motivate US troops, hence the admiring mouth breathers in this thread, but all it does in Iraq is create more enemies. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:18:46 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads? Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yep. Perfect example of how not to treat people. Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless. Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day, we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife. Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home. Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die. And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:25:27 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah if only we were nicer we would win wars. Im sure we just really close to winning their muslim hearts and minds though. TRANSITION Everything we did from 2003 onwards was designed around the goal of securing the country enough for a smooth transition to self rule of a "friendly" parliamentary govt. Everything we did or were supposed to do worked off that strategic and political end goal. So all tactics and operations are geared toward that. Now tell me, considering everything we were doing was to hand over a peaceful nation to our Iraqi allies, what do you think we should have done? |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:32:15 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where has this worked when Islam was the ethos? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's not about being "nice". It's about understanding how high context cultures work, and not alienating your allies. Chest thumping bullshit like that might motivate US troops, hence the admiring mouth breathers in this thread, but all it does in Iraq is create more enemies. There are a thousand and one ways to play operant conditioning to mindfuck someone but they only work if you know how that person thinks. The MP insulting the Iraqis didnt, he didn't have a fucking clue how an Arab mind works, so while it appears to be a good ass chewing it would have backfired. The only positive is one American NCO got to get shit off his chest at the expense of turning that IP unit completely against his unit and making them enemies. In war you strive not to make your enemy stronger through your efforts, but weaker. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:37:33 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which Muslims minds were we trying to win and why? What was the point of US troops in Iraq after Saddam was captured? Who was running Iraq and what was national policy for US forces from day one of occupation that never ended. TRANSITION Everything we did from 2003 onwards was designed around the goal of securing the country enough for a smooth transition to self rule of a "friendly" parliamentary govt. Everything we did or were supposed to do worked off that strategic and political end goal. So all tactics and operations are geared toward that. Now tell me, considering everything we were doing was to hand over a peaceful nation to our Iraqi allies, what do you think we should have done? US national security, which is the only thing I care about vis a vis the ridiculously named and conceived war on on a tactic called "terror" does not depend on either making everyone like us, or making everyone more like us. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:51:32 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You tell me. The idea, probably borne in some neocon thinktank inside the beltway populated by ivy league morons, that we were going to install something resembling a stable republic in either Iraq or Afghanistan is laughable and tragic on its face. US national security, which is the only thing I care about vis a vis the ridiculously named and conceived war on on a tactic called "terror" does not depend on either making every like us, or making every more like us. Your advice and contribution doesn't help the ignorant MP NCO unfuck himself because you are avoiding reality in lieu of "I wish" land, which shares a border with "If I were in charge"-stan. That NCO needed remedial training, not encouragement. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 8:22:45 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures, especially the Germanic ones. Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day, we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife. Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home. Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die. And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 8:25:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We lost the war there? Huh. News to me. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 8:48:18 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. We should have done what the 'greatest generation' did to Germany and Japan. Mass executions of the enemy -- it tends to get peoples attention. Come in contact with a non-uniformed enemy combatant? Firing squad. 
High ranking enemy officer? Firing squad. 
Oh, you are in the Philippines and encounter the enemy? Firing Squad. 
Civil War? Firing Squad 
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Posted: 8/17/2017 9:45:07 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We lost the war there? Huh. News to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 10:29:23 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures, especially the Germanic ones. Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day, we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife. Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home. Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die. And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it As you mentioned, whomever drew up that security apparatus and thought it had any chance in hell of it working was an imbecile or just threw his hands up and executed the easiest plan once they ran out of time and had to do something. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 10:31:35 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
THIS! Treating 7th-Century Mesopotamian tribesmen like they are 21st Century corn-fed Iowa football-playing farmboys simply does not work. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 10:48:20 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
THIS! Treating 7th-Century Mesopotamian tribesmen like they are 21st Century corn-fed Iowa football-playing farmboys simply does not work. I've shown videos of USMC bootcamp to Brit and Aussie soldiers before, they laugh at the screaming because that's not how they do it, their DS/DI yell less still get shit done (think like Color Sergeant Bourne in Zulu). Meanwhile a Korean or Russian soldier would watch USMC video and say "why aren't they hitting the men?" Because culture... |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 10:56:37 AM EDT
[#42]
A long time ago I remember seeing a video that was probably posted here on GD about an Army or Marine dude who took home a hot Iraqi wife.
She barely spoke English, barely knew how to cook, didn't know how to operate a vacuum cleaner as in she didn't even know what a vacuum cleaner was, had an entitled attitude for just about everything and everything was an offense to her pride, and blamed all of her problems on the Jews. Basically, a real winner here. I don't know if they lived happily ever after, but the moral of the story is know your enemy. Then you know their weaknesses and strengths and how to use them to your favor. That NCO didn't and didn't particularly care to, just like that stupid idiot who married that Iraqi woman and here we are... |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 10:59:45 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hell yeah! We sure showed those Japanese and Germans what was up. Stabilized those countries and got the fuck out of there amirite! This thread is about arguing the correct tactic to implement a failed strategy. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 11:02:31 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why? By pretending that by training barbaric muslim men (who were majority the product of inbreeding because of cultural traditions) to fight other barbaric muslim men that we would accomplish something? We should have done what the 'greatest generation' did to Germany and Japan. Mass executions of the enemy -- it tends to get peoples attention. Come in contact with a non-uniformed enemy combatant? Firing squad. https://i0.wp.com/rarehistoricalphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/german_commandos_american_uniform_small.jpg?resize=350%2C200 https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wNo7X8hNTik/hqdefault.jpg http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/458267-4/123_002 https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1b/47/fc/1b47fc61cfb1164f0325450f58558b80.jpg High ranking enemy officer? Firing squad. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/96/4c/8f/964c8fcca105cfd45294a2e14589f01a--excited-face-german-army.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pfqPrhA6VZw/UwEeoM80NwI/AAAAAAAAIrw/j4tAo2Kt7xE/s1600/German+General+Anton+Dostler+is+tied+to+a+stake+before+his+execution+by+a+firing+squad,+Italy,+1945.jpg Oh, you are in the Philippines and encounter the enemy? Firing Squad. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e5/1e/42/e51e4287eb53c323d88b44ac549285f2.jpg Civil War? Firing Squad http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/illustration-of-a-deserter-being-executed-by-a-firing-squad-at-the-picture-id106416800?s=612x612 That could work in certain circumstances in Iraq, we should have emptied the prisons of hard core insurgents through mass executions instead of leaving them to get released or break out to join ISIS later on. But that is only useful after you catch them doing something dirty, not before. However the war was already hugely unpopular within the US and worldwide. No US would allow summary execution or mass executions following quick trials because they'd rightly worry about impeachment, war crime charges, the total destruction of their political career. A much simpler fix is to disregard existing rank and MTOE of deploying units and simply relieve for cause all "leaders" who don't get it, replace them with smarter sibordinates who do get it, field promote them, suddenly you have officers and NCOs running shit who are acting like Lawrence of Arabia and not GySgt Hartman from FMJ. Then we still win and our CinC doesn't have to worry about building a legal defense team for possible future trial in The Hague |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 11:03:38 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly. Iraqis dont know who Vince Lombardi and never played organized sports. You'd probably have better results not yelling at all, just have a senior officer tell them "I'm disappointed in your performance," then he sends his SGT to grab one dude that is known as the worst, beat the shit out of him with a cane and then blow his brains out in front of everyone with a pistol, then CO tells the rest "I hope we don't need to have this conversation again." They'll get that because that's what their culture is used to. Targeted terror instead of mass berating. Culture... |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 11:17:27 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...or killed by their co-workers |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 11:32:21 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know you arent suggesting that we could achieve similar results in Iraq and Afghanistan if we didnt "suck at COIN" amirite? This thread is about arguing the correct tactic to implement a failed strategy. My point was we never left Germany or Japan. We suck a fat dick at COIN. COIN isn't some optional "strategy" it's a fact of life when faced with a lethal insurgency. You either counter the insurgency (COIN), or you leave. We spent the first 3-4 years there accomplishing jack shit and getting our teeth kicked in by fucking peasants (and Iran). We smartened up a little in small pockets, but never really got a good grasp on COIN, and then we left with the job half done, thanks to the shitty puppet presidents of both Iraq and the US. The whole shitshow came crashing down, and now we are there again. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 11:42:35 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures, especially the Germanic ones. Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day, we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife. Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home. Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die. And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it From your experience, It would appear the US made a major mistake in staffing Iraqi police from local inhabitants, but bringing them in from other areas would also create issues. The basic ones would be housing and food, but perhaps tribal tensions would flare from bringing in Iraqis that would have police power over a different tribe...or even worse, bringing in Shias to police Sunnis. Edit to add: You describe the police staffing problem, but what was the solution? My question to you: how would you have resolved the issue of traitorous/useless Iraqi Police? My personal opinion is there was no effective way to resolve the problem. I think foreigners would never be welcome in Iraq/Afghanistan, so cooperation would have its limits. I wonder what you think of the essay,"Why Arabs Lose Wars"? I thought it was interesting and confirms Winston Churchills analysis of Arab culture. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 11:44:19 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My point was we never left Germany or Japan. Quote HistoryQuoted:
My point was we never left Germany or Japan. We suck a fat dick at COIN. COIN isn't some optional "strategy" it's a fact of life when faced with a lethal insurgency. You either counter the insurgency (COIN), or you leave. We spent the first 3-4 years there accomplishing jack shit and getting our teeth kicked in by fucking peasants (and Iran). We smartened up a little in small pockets, but never really got a good grasp on COIN, and then we left with the job half done, thanks to the shitty puppet presidents of both Iraq and the US. The whole shitshow came crashing down, and now we are there again. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 12:51:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's what I take from your serious and welcome analysis. Iraqis (perhaps by extension all Arabs) are not motivated by shame. They are, however, motivated by fear, which I would posit is a Universal cultural motivator, so in that respect, they are just like us. They are also motivated by self interest which means they are just like everyone else. From your experience, It would appear the US made a major mistake in staffing Iraqi police from local inhabitants, but bringing them in from other areas would also create issues. The basic ones would be housing and food, but perhaps tribal tensions would flare from bringing in Iraqis that would have police power over a different tribe...or even worse, bringing in Shias to police Sunnis. I wonder what you think of the essay,"Why Arabs Lose Wars"? I thought it was interesting and confirms Winston Churchills analysis of Arab culture. CPT Travis Patriquin: How to Win the War in Al Anbar This powerpoint slide show helped us win the war (until Obama threw it all away). In hindsight, the concept is utter simplicity and yet 95% of the US Army and Marine Corps were baffled by it, to them it was like rocket science and ancient greek. |
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